Hello - I am doing research from Canada into one branch of my husband's family. I would appreciate any input; am especially concerned regarding "geography" (townlands, parishes, etc.). My primary sources of information have been Roots Ireland, Ancestry, Griffith's Valuations, census date (and oral history).
Summary: My husband's great grandparents, Simon Armstrong (b: 1841, est. from Death record) and Margaret Nash (bap. 31 Aug 1845) were married 21 January 1873 in Kildorrery, Co. Cork. At the time, Simon was living in Cashel, working as a Shopkeeper; Margaret was living in Kildorrery. Their fathers were: James Armstrong, Farmer & Thomas Nash, Farmer. Margaret's family were specifically from Ballynoe, Kildorrery, Co. Cork. After the wedding, Simon and Margaret settled in Cashel, and based on the Civil Birth Records of their first 2 children (James: 1873, William: 1875), the family lived on Main Street, Cashel, and Simon continued working as a Shopkeeper. They re-located to Clonmel, Co. Tipperary by the birth of their 3rd child in January, 1879. Simon died suddenly in 1896 at the reported age of 55, leaving Margaret a widow with 8 children. She, along with her 7 youngest children, moved to England (1901 Census) and then on to Canada (1904).
NOTE: I have not been able to locate a Birth or Baptism record for Simon Armstrong. Also - he is not to be confused with the Simon P. Armstrong who lived and died in the TOWN of Tipperary - who coincidentally was born around the same time - worked as a Shopkepper/Draper - also lived on Main Street ... and whose father was also named James. THIS Simon Armstrong married a Mary Murphy.
Assuming that our Simon's father, James,, was farming in the area near the town of Cashel, there are 7 references in the 1850 Griffith's Valuations as follows ... in the UNION of Cashel ... in the Townland of Ballagh. They appear to all describe the same James Armstrong, the only differences being the "Position on Page" and "Map References":
Name: James Armstrong, Landlord: Alexander Percival, Esq. ;County: Tipperary, South Riding; Union: Cashel; Parish: Clonoulty; Townland: Ballagh. Printing Date: 1850; Sheet Number: 52.
The different "Position on Page" followed by "Map References":
1 .... 1 A - Land
2 ..... 1B - Land
3 .... 2 - Land
21 ..... 37 - 19 - Office & Stable
27 ..... 37 - 23 - Limestone Quarry (in conjuction with Timothy Kennely
36 ..... 37 - 31 - House, Office & Garden
22 ..... 12 - Land in PIERCETOWN (in conjunction with John Chidle).
A James Armstrong also appears as a "Lessor" in 4 instances, all of which involve houses only:
37 - 9 (James along with Catherine Snigg) - under the name John Baker
37 - 20 - under the name James O'Brien
37 - 21 - under the names Edward Cullen & Bridget Mears
37 - 22 - under the names Patrick Hayes & John Brist (?? - writing difficult to read)
QUESTIONS:
1. A general question regarding farming in Ireland in the 1800's: was it typical for farmers to have multiple plots of land which were not necessary adjacent? And did farmers and their families often live in a village, or rural crossroad of a cluster of houses, rather than having a house, barn, etc. out on the land they were farming?
2. Do you think that it would be likely that the James Armstrong renting the aforementioned from Alexander Percival would himself also be a landlord, renting out the described 4 houses ... or are these two different James Armstrongs?
3. In the Roots Ireland Civil Birth records for Simon and Margaret's sons, James and William, they describe the "Parish/District" as Cashel; but in these Griffith's Valuations, the "Union" is Cashel, in the "Parish" of Clonoutly. I have also located records in Roots Ireland (see following) for Armstrongs with the "Address" of Ballagh, but in the "Parish" of Kilpatrick. Lastly, on the internet: "CASHEL, a city, (being the seat of an archbishoprick and diocese), borough, market, and post-town, in the BARONY of Middlethird, County of Tipperary, and PROVINCE of Munster."
A. How does Ballagh relate to the TOWN of Cashel, where Simon Armstrong worked in 1873?
B. What Parish is Ballagh in?
C. Would it seem a reasonable possibility that this James Armstrong, Farmer, located in Ballagh, might be a relative of Simon Armstrong, working as a Shopkeeper in Cashel?
I have located a Death record for a James Armstrong which would be the correct age to be the father of Simon Armstrong: died 12 July 1877 ar age 86 (therefore b: abt 1791), widower, Farmer, Address: Ballagh, Parish: Kilpatrick.
There also appears to be a James Armstrong JUNIOR who would be the correct age to be the son of the aforementioned, and a sibling of Simon's:
James Armstrong (Jr.), Farmer, aged 25 of Ballagh, married Catherine Brien, Farmer, age 20 of Bishopwood, on 7 February 1865, in the Parish of Kilpatrick, religion: Civil Parish. The fathers of the bride & groom were: James Armstrong, Farmer, and Cornelius Brien, Farmer. They went on to have 11 children: William 1866, Mary 1867, Patrick 1869, Connor 1871, James 1873, Margaret 1875, Bridget 1879, Jane 1882, Cornelius 1883, Johanna 1887, Catherine 1889. This family appears in the 1901 Census living at House 21 in Ballagh, and in House 13 in the 1911 Census. James died 18 July 1912, age 80 (married, farmer, living in Ballagh, Informant: daughter Johnanna). His wife Catherine died 11 months later at the age of 70, widow, farmer's wife, Informant: daughter Katie Armstrong.
Unfortunately, I have only been able to locate Civil Birth records for James and Catherine's children; I was hoping that Baptism records might reveal a Simon Armstrong as a "Sponsor", thereby helping to link him to this specific family in Ballagh.
QUESTION: Do you know where I might find the Baptism records for James' children? And what church where the baptisms might have taken place?
Sorry that this communication was so long - I thought that it might be helpful to have all of the background on the same page. It was only because of feedback from an Ireland Reach Out person from County Cork that I was able to locate the long Marriage Certificate of Simon Armstrong and Margaret Nash on-line ... which provided the names to go back a generation. I had all but given up on the Armstrong side. Now the challenge is - can I link Simon Armstrong with a James Armstrong, Farmer, in Cashel??
Thanks, in advance, for any help or input. Hope you are all staying safe and well on your side of the Atlantic!
Cam12
Monday 25th May 2020, 01:05PMMessage Board Replies
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Cam:
Hello again!
I can likely help you with some of your questions. Ballagh is in the civil parish of Clonoulty and from what I can see is about ten miles from Cashel. ( I don't live in Ireland). Some farmers with a good deal of land would sub-lease to other farmers in the way you have laid out the records for the James Armstrong in Ballagh.
The RC records for Clonoulty are not on the subscription site Roots Ireland ( a good number of parishes from the Diocese of Cashel and Emly are not on Roots). You can find some of the records for Clonoulty on another subscription site either FindMyPast or Ancestry.com I did find on Find My Past four baptismal reords in Clonoulty for James Armstrong of Ballagh and his wife Mary Mara (see below) but no Simon or James. Here is the link to the parish register https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0256 if you would like to scan for Simon and James.
Griffiths records are based on townlands, then civil parish and then Poor Law Union.
Civil records (birth, marriage, death) are based on townland, then Registrar's district and then Superintendent's Registrar District (which is the same as the Poor Law Union).
To confuse you further Cashel is a Registrar's District (as shown on the two Roots Ireland records) and a Superintendent's Registrar District.
www.irishgenealogy.ie is a great free resource for civil records. I would search for the birth records for the 11 children of James Armstrong and Catherine Brien. Use the Cashel Registration District.
I'm not sure if the James Armstrong in Ballagh is the father of Simon. I think more evidence would be needed.
I'm sure I have not answered all of your questions and likely I have confused you on some comments. Let me know what questions you have.
Roger McDonnell
First name(s)HonoraLast nameArmstrongBirth year-Baptism year1840Baptism date19 Sep 1840ResidenceBallaghParishClonoultyAlternative parish namesClogher, Clonoulty and Clogher, Clonoulty and Rossmore, RossmoreDioceseCashel and EmlyCountyTipperaryCountryIrelandFather's first name(s)JamesFather's last nameArmstrongMother's first name(s)MaryMother's last nameMaraRepository
National Library of Ireland registerhttp://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632689#page/1/mode/1upRegisterBaptismRecord setIreland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s)JohnLast nameArmstrongBirth year-Baptism year1844Baptism date30 Jun 1844ResidenceBallaghParishClonoultyAlternative parish namesClogher, Clonoulty and Clogher, Clonoulty and Rossmore, RossmoreDioceseCashel and EmlyCountyTipperaryCountryIrelandFather's first name(s)JamesFather's last nameArmstrongMother's first name(s)MaryMother's last nameMaraRepository
National Library of Ireland registerhttp://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632689#page/1/mode/1upRegisterBaptismRecord setIreland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s)MaryLast nameArmstrongBirth year-Baptism year1838Baptism date26 Apr 1838ResidenceBallaghParishClonoultyAlternative parish namesClogher, Clonoulty and Clogher, Clonoulty and Rossmore, RossmoreDioceseCashel and EmlyCountyTipperaryCountryIrelandFather's first name(s)JamesFather's last nameArmstrongMother's first name(s)MaryMother's last nameMaraRepository
National Library of Ireland registerhttp://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632689#page/1/mode/1upRegisterBaptismRecord setIreland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s)WilliamLast nameArmstrongBirth year-Baptism year1843Baptism date07 May 1843ResidenceBallaghParishClonoultyAlternative parish namesClogher, Clonoulty and Clogher, Clonoulty and Rossmore, RossmoreDioceseCashel and EmlyCountyTipperaryCountryIrelandFather's first name(s)JamesFather's last nameArmstrongMother's first name(s)MaryMother's last nameMaraRepository
National Library of Ireland registerhttp://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632689#page/1/mode/1upRegisterBaptism
Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘
Monday 25th May 2020, 06:03PM -
Cam:
Forgot to mention that civil birth records do not show sponsors. Only marriage records show witnesses.
The Clonoulty parish register only has baptismal records until early 1881.
Roger
Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘
Monday 25th May 2020, 06:09PM -
Roger - thanks for your reply and the additional information. I had not even considered that Roots Ireland did not cover all of the parishes!
FYI - re: the children of James Armstrong Jr. & Catherine Brien of Ballagh. In reviewing some of the Baptism records found on Ancestry ... one of the sponsors for the first-born daughter, Mary (b:1867) .... was SIMON ARMSTRONG! This is encouraging - a link of a Simon Armstrong with the farming Armstrong family in Ballagh, potentially a brother of James Jr. Simon would have been 26 at the time of the Baptism, and not yet married to Margaret Nash. At the time of his 1873 marriage, Simon was already living in the town of Cashel.
Regarding James Armstrong JR., of Ballagh.
On his Marriage record to Catherine Brien, it states that his Father was James Armstrong, Farmer. I suspect that his father is the James Armstrong identified in the 1850 Griffth's Valuation leasing land, office, barn, quarry, house & garden in Ballgh ... and the person who died on 12 July 1877 at age 86, widower, Farmer, in Ballagh. If so, James SENIOR would have been born about 1791.
I located a Death record for a Mary Armstrong as follows: died 16 March 1867 age 50, married, wife of J. Armstrong, Ballagh.
I am wondering if this could have been James SENIOR's wife .... and the Mary Mara you located. These death dates would be consistant regarding James being pre-deceased by his wife. There would have been a notable 26 year age difference, based on this information. HOWEVER in the Ireland Catholic Parish Register there is a Baptism for: Mary Mara, baptised 7 June 1813, place of Baptism: Clonoulty, Residence: Ballah, Father: James Mara; Mother: Judy ?? (Ancestry says "Mara", but it should be the mother's maiden name, and is really too difficult to read).
It seems very coincidental that this Mary Mara should also be from Ballagh. Using this Bapistm record reduces the age gap between Mary and James SENIOR to 22 years (and it may be even less, if James SENIORS's age is overstated on the Death record).
A POSSIBLE scenario could be:
James Armstrong SR. of Ballagh (b: abt 1791) married Mary Mara of Ballagh (bap: 1813) sometime around 1834.
Children of James SR. & Mary Mara:
James JR. - born about 1835 - see below
Mary - bap: 26 April 1838, Ballagh
Honora - Bap: 19 September 1840, Ballagh
Simon - born about 1841 - see below
William - bap: 7 May 1843, Ballagh
John - bap: 30 June 1844, Ballagh
On James Armstrong JR.'s Marriage record it said that he was 25 in 1865, therefore born in 1840 HOWEVER in the 1901 Census he is recorded as 65, so born in 1836; in the 1911 Census he is 76, so born in 1835 ... and his Death record shows he died 18 July 1912 at age 80 ... which would translate to a birthdate in 1832. It seems reasonable that James JR. could be the first-born child.
Simon's Death record stated that he was 55 in 1896, and therefore born in 1841. It seems possible that a child could have been born between Honora in 1840, and William in 1843.
I may be interpreting the data incorrectly, but am very encouraged to see a Simon Armstrong as a Sponsor to one of the children of James Armstrong, Jr. of Ballagh.
By seeing the long Marriage Certificate of Simon Armstrong & Margaret Nash (thanks to you!) ... I was able to confirm the Nashes of Ballynoe ... and go back at least one (or more) generations on the Armstrong side. Thanks for all of your input. As before ... any comments would be appreciated!
Cam12
Tuesday 26th May 2020, 10:42PM -
Cam:
I have nothing to add. You have done a great job.
Roger
Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘
Wednesday 27th May 2020, 08:38PM