Bernard Owen Rooney

Here’s the death for Bernard Rooney in Ballyvalley on 25.5.1882. His wife was still alive at that date. The informant was Constantine Rooney of the same townland.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06406/4839931.pdf

I can see about 13 Rooney households in Ballyvalley in the 1901 so a little patience will be required to sort them all out:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Upper_Clonallan/Ballyvalley/

Griffiths Valuation for 1864 lists Bernard Rooney on plot 7 in Ballyvally. Just under 6 acres. (That property today is beside the modern Carmeen Rd. It still looks to be a farm though the buildings all look pretty modern, judging by Google Earth. I suspect Bernard’s house has long been demolished). Constantine Rooney farmed plot 9 nearby and died in 1892 aged 88.

 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06050/4724200.pdf

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

Griffiths Valuation is taken forward by the Valuation Revision records which are on the PRONI site. Rather unhelpfully in this case, they don’t record Bernard’s death (or who took over). The name Bernard remains against the property until 1929, when the records stop. The records do show that the occupant had bought the freehold, under the Land Act, around 1915. It could be that it passed from Bernard Rooney to another Bernard Rooney and so there was no need to amend the records. This family could have taken the property over:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Upper_Clonallan/Ballyvalley/1250340/

Here’s their marriage in 1899. Bernard was a widower:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1900/10353/5768924.pdf

That Bernard was born c 1854 and so too old to be a son from Bernard senior’s marriage to Ellen in 1861, but perhaps that was a second marriage for him too? Tradition was to leave the farm to the eldest son, though that rule was not always followed.  Have you searched for an earlier marriage?

Here’s Bernard married to Ellen in 1911. It doesn’t appear they had any children.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Clonallan_Upper/B…

I had a look for marriages for Elizabeth & Mary in the Ballyvalley area up to 1901 but did not see any. Possibly they had left the area.

There were many Rooney farms in Ballyvally in the tithe applotment records for 1834. There is a Bernard listed but no easy way of determining whether it was yours:

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/down/tithe-applotment-books/clonallan-…

You may struggle to find much about Bernard’s or Elizabeth's parents due to the general lack of records for the early 1800s. Clonallan RC parish has no records before 1826. No easy way round that.

WOW ..... You are all so wonderful......there is so much great info for me to follow up.......and as always more questions such as Conatantines place in the family......the eldest son Patrick left for America before the death of his father and the next in line Arthur left for America the year after Bernards death.......was that normal especially if the mother Elizabeth lived longer than Bernard.....

Thank you,

Ann

Ann,

Constantine’s age on his death certificate indicates he was born c 1803, so that makes him of an age to be Bernard’s brother. But he could equally be a cousin. The informant was Patrick Rooney, his nephew.  That then raises the question of which Patrick Rooney was he? Your Patrick had left pre 1882 so it can’t be him.

Constantine’s death certificate indicates his wife was still alive. Here are 4 possibles for her:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1901/05740/4620782.pdf

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06084/4735881.pdf

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05918/4680376.pdf

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05834/4652241.pdf

Children wouldn’t normally leave a widowed mother alone, but they might go if she was provided for in some suitable way. So she might go and live with a daughter somewhere nearby, or she might accompany one of her children further afield. (The most common destinations being England, Scotland, the US and Canada.)

I can’t find a death in Ballyvalley for Elizabeth so I think she must have left after Bernard’s death, whether locally or further afield I don’t know. I can’t find either of the daughters Elizabeth & Mary marrying in the Newry area either so perhaps she went with one or both of them somewhere. (Or did they die young?). Here’s a death for an Elizabeth Rooney from Ballyvally. The informant was the mother Elizabeth. Age isn’t quite right but who knows:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

There was also a Mary Rooney who died in 1865 aged 0 but that certificate is not free to view yet. The surname Rooney is so common it’s a bit hard to search.  I don’t see any clues on any on-line trees on Ancestry for this part of the family.

Good morning Elwyn.

I am looking at Bernards death cert and am having difficulty reading the cause of death. Can you help me please.

Also I am looking at the Griffiths valuation for 1864 page 69 and I believe this is my family. Bernard and Constantine are there as well as a Patrick M"Kevit who left Bernard Rooney from Ballyvally under 100 pounds in his will.

I agree that Constantine must be a younger cousin .

Would the mother, Elizabeth, leave the country before her eldest son did? I ask because I have found a large Rooney family in upstate New York.and Patrick her eldest son met his wife there and also applied for his citizenship there even though I can document his home and business addresses in New York City at the same dates.......I have been waitilng for a copy of the marriage cert to see who the witnesses were... the New York State records department moves exceedingly slow...lol

Thank you so much for your guidence and help,

Ann

PS what is the best time to visit Ireland??

Ann,

You ask about the cause of death on Bernard’s death certificate. As I read it, it says: “Chronic bronchitis. 2 years (?) uncertified. No medical attendant.” Normally that box should record: a) the cause, b) duration & c) whether a doctor was present. So in this case you have cause, duration (I can't really make out precisely what it says though the word year seems to be in there) and that no doctor attended.  

It didn’t become routine or mandatory to have a doctor attend a death until the 1890s when Parliament made it a formal requirement. The medical profession had till then put forward various objections. Arguments were along the lines of what was the point of them riding 20 miles over rough moors to attend a dead body? What good could they do then, when they might be spending that time more usefully with their living patients? The nub of the matter appears to have been money. If the patient was dead, who would pay them? Once the state said it would pay, their objections magically disappeared overnight, and they apparently happily certified every dead body in sight no matter how far away. Medical ethics can be quite baffling at times.

Bernard’s death certificate says he lived in Ballyvally. There’s only one Bernard in Griffiths in that townland and so I’d be surprised if plot 7 was not his home.

You ask whether Elizabeth would leave Ireland before her eldest son.  That’s a question that might take an army of experts to answer fully. Ireland has some magnificent plays by writers like Brian Friel and Martin McDonagh.  They often deal with “Irish angst”. The underlying themes often tend to be poverty, emigration, family jealousies and downright bloody-mindedness. A good example is “Philadelphia here I come” (Brian Friel).  An uncle in Philadelphia offers Gareth O’Donnell in Ireland the opportunity to go to Philadelphia to work. Gareth is delighted but there’s the issue of his widowed father, his former girlfriend (who still loves him but reluctantly married another because "Gar" was too slow in courting her). And so on.  Gareth has his ticket, a date for departure, and attends his American Wake (a farewell do) where his friends don’t really seem to care whether he goes or stays. All baffling for him. What about his lost girlfriend? Does he go or stay?   Watch and see. It’s a magnificent play and should give you a good general sense of Irish emotions and relationships about emigration in the 1800s. 

That said, I don't think there were any definite rules for whether a widowed mother would have stayed or gone. I doubt she’d have left her children with no-one to look after them but if they were adults, it’d be a different matter. Did they all get on?  You don't have to dig very far in PRONI's wills to find some where a husband has specified the domestic arrangements after his death. Along the lines of “If my wife and my eldest son/daughter cannot agree to get on, the door from the kitchen to the front room is to be blocked up and a new door created from outside the building.” (Dividing the house in half, in effect.). Not every family lived harmoniously, so some might have wanted to go to the US when others might have wanted to stay.

You ask the best time to visit Ireland. I’d say in the afternoon because we generally don’t get up very early. Nobody here does much in the morning in my experience. Mornings would probably be no good to you. Try afternoons or evenings, that’d be my advice.

More seriously, any time of the year is suitable for a visit. Ireland is on the same latitude as Labrador and Alaska, so we get very long summer evenings and short winter evenings. If you want long evenings, come in May – July. But there are tourists here all the year round. If you like rain we can provide that nearly all the time too.  (There’s a good reason why Ireland is so green).  Pre-Covid it could get very busy in July & August so you need to book ahead then. If you want flexibility, come outside those top months and you’ll be able to book as you go if that’s what you want. Cheaper and quieter here off season.

If you want suggestions for tourist things to see and do in Co Down and Ulster generally, I have a list and can let you have it.

Good morning Elwyn.  I am a senior living in Florida so we dont do much in the mornings either ...lol

Covid has created so much uncertainty it is difficult to plan a trip but off season would be my choice. Please do send me your info on things to do. Kilkenny is where my grandmothers family is from so that will be on my travel plans as well.

I will check Pronis wills. Thank you for directing me there.

Ann

Ann,

Regarding PRONI’s wills, for some years the wills themselves are on-line. For later years 1900 onwards, only some are on-line. For the others it’s usually normally necessary to go to PRONI to look them up in person. Or you can pay PRONI or a researcher to do that for you. “Administration” in the probate abstract generally means the person died intestate, so there’s no will. 

TOURIST ATTRACTIONS

All these suggestions should be reviewed on sites like Tripadvisor, and they nearly all have websites so you can use them to decide which may appeal to you.

• A drive through the Mountains of Mourne in Co Down (where you Rooney families lived).
• Visit Downpatrick Cathedral to see where St Patrick is buried (allegedly)
• Mount Stewart stately home near Newtownards (home of the Marquess of Londonderry) or Castle Ward at Strangford. (Both in Co Down). National Trust (free admission for those with reciprocal arrangements). http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/mount-stewart/
• Titanic Exhibition in Belfast docks. http://www.titanicbelfast.com/
• Open top Bus tour of Belfast
• Crown Bar in Belfast (200 years old, gas lit. Very popular with visitors). Has featured in many films eg Odd Man Out. http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/crown-bar/
• Traditional Irish singing and fiddly-dee music in Fibber Magee’s bar (next to the Crown Bar). Most nights from 9pm onwards. Free admission.
• Guided walks available. Contact the visitor centre in Donegall Square. 

http://www.ireland.com/en-gb/amazing-places/northern-ireland?gclid=CIOjr8CKisICFc3HtAod-iIA0Q

• If you like good seafood, go to the Mourne Seafood Bar in Belfast. (Booking pretty well essential in the evenings but not at lunchtime).

http://mourneseafood.com/belfast/

• Tour of Crumlin Rd Jail in Belfast, which closed in the late 1990s. (Includes the execution cell, with working gallows, and an opportunity to lie in the empty coffin, if you are so minded).

http://www.crumlinroadgaol.com/public-tour.html

Bushmills Whiskey distillery tour (2 miles from the Giant’s Causeway). Interesting tour and an opportunity to meet lots of American visitors.

http://www.bushmills.com/BMTheOldBushmillsFindUs.html

Day trip from Ballycastle to Rathlin Island to view the bird colonies, seals etc (best in Apr – Jun). 20 minute crossing if you get the fast ferry. 40 on the slow one. 

http://www.discovernorthernireland.com/Rathlin-Island-Rathlin-Island-P8209

• Carrickfergus Castle. Carrickfergus was the original capital of Ulster before Belfast. The castle is 800 years old. It was a military base until very recently and is intact. 

http://www.carrickfergus.org/tourism/attractions/carrickfergus-castle/

• Ulster – American Folkpark in Co Tyrone. Everything for the American or Canadian ancestor hunter. http://www.nmni.com/uafp/What-s-on
• US presidents Homesteads. (US Presidents whose ancestors came from Northern Ireland are: Andrew Jackson, James Knox Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Ulysses Simpson Grant, Chester Alan Arthur, William McKinley, Woodrow Wilson, Benjamin Harrison & Grover Cleveland.) Many of their homesteads are now tourist attractions. Details from Visit NI).
• GAME OF THRONES – For Game of Thrones (GOT) fans, a lot of it is filmed in Northern Ireland and there are special leaflets telling you where some of the main locations are. Some are on private property eg Shane’s Castle estate in Randalstown (and so not accessible), but many are accessible. One is a big quarry beside Carrick a Rede rope bridge. Another is the Dark Hedges near Stranocum (an avenue of 300 year old Beech trees). Organised bus trips round many of the GOT sites are available. Further details from Visit NI - the tourist information office in Belfast.

http://www.discovernorthernireland.com/gameofthrones/

• Elsewhere, Londonderry/Derry is well worth a days visit. Contact the visitor centre for details of guided walks. Walk round the city walls (the only completely intact set of walls in any city in Europe). See the guns used at the siege of Derry. I recommend Martin McCrossan’s tours.. derrycitytours@aol.com See St Columb’s Cathedral. Visit the Bogside and see the murals. Learn about the more recent conflict in the area between Protestants and Catholics. Buy some corny souvenirs in the many tourist shops. The city is very compact and easily covered on foot. Walk over the peace bridge from one side of the river to the other. If using public transport, take the train to Derry as it goes along the coast between Coleraine and Derry and it’s a great view. Reportedly one of the most scenic train journeys in Europe.
• Giant’s Causeway, Co Antrim (busiest tourist attraction in Ireland). The Giant’s Causeway is free to visit but there’s a visitor centre which charges £9.50, and which some people think they have to pay to see the Causeway. Avoid the visitor centre. Go round the side and through the tunnel/bridge to the Causeway. It’s about a half mile walk to the Causeway, or you can take a bus (£2 return but free for members of the National Trust and reciprocal organisations). You can do a circular walk if you want, along the top of the cliffs and then down to the rocks and back along the road the bus uses.
• Carrick a Rede Rope Bridge Co Antrim (a few miles from the Giants Causeway). Wobbly rope bridge over a 200 foot drop, leading to a small island. Originally built for salmon fisherman. Now a major tourist attraction. (Most visitors do Bushmills distillery, the Giant’s Causeway and the Rope Bridge as part of the same excursion). Check the National Trust website as you sometimes need to book due to excessive numbers.
• Dunluce Castle (Scottish baronial castle on a cliff - former home of the Earls of Antrim till part of it fell into the sea during dinner one night in the 1600s). A couple of miles from the Giants Causeway.
• A drive along the coastal round from Giant’s Causeway to the Glens of Antrim (via Torr Head minor road, steep and twisty). Great views across to the Scottish mainland, the islands of the Inner Hebrides and to Rathlin Island. Stop in Cushendun (pretty harbour village) for a drink in Molly McBride’s bar or for a dander on the beach. Cushendun used to be a busy port for people travelling back and forth to Scotland. Many Scots settlers first arrived here.
• Gobbins Walk near Whitehead. This is a renovated Victorian walkway along the cliffs of Islandmagee. Lasts about a mile. Need to have a reasonable level of fitness and not be scared of heights. Advance booking usually required. 

http://www.discovernorthernireland.com/The-Gobbins-Islandmagee-Larne-P48901

• Hillsborough Castle (The Royal Family’s residence when they are in Northern Ireland).  https://www.hrp.org.uk/Hillsborough-Castle/#gs.9an7lx

• CURRENCY

Currency in Northern Ireland is the pound sterling (£). Euros (€) in the Republic of Ireland. Shops in both jurisdictions near the border areas will often take the other currency, and in tourist venues they’ll often take US dollars too but usually not at a very good exchange rate. Pay in the relevant local currency or by credit card if you can.

• TIPPING 

10% is the norm for meals in restaurants. 

No need to tip for drinks in bars and cafes. Bar staff in Ireland usually get a fair wage and don’t rely so heavily on tips as is the case in some countries, though obviously if they go out of their way to help you, you may well want to leave a tip. 

With regard to visiting Kilkenny, I don't have a list of suggestions for that area. I would put a message on the main Kilkenny county board and hopefully a local volunteer will be able to provide some information for you.

Thank you for the info. .

I hope I am not being a pest but I have more questions......

On Bernards death cert Constantine is the informant and not the wife... any ideas why??

Also on the 1901 Census I think I found Elizabeth from the list you sent me. The census says Elizabeth can read and write but she signed with her mark???

And was it typical of Irish men to marry late? If I have the correct birth info for Elizabeth she was 22 and Bernard was 52 when they married........

Have a lovely day,

Ann

Ann,

The informant can be anyone present at the death (plus the usual medical categories and a coroner). It was common for a neighbour or a relative to register a death. The Registrar might live some distance away, and apart from just wishing to help out, it might be that the neighbour was going that way, when the widow wasn’t planning to.

Regarding reading and writing, most working class folk in Ireland in the 1800s were not very literate. Many parents couldn’t see the point of sending children to school as they could be employed more usefully on the farm. They tended to take them away from school all the time for tasks, and for helping with the harvest. By the time they were 11 they were often attending part-time and had left altogether by 12 or 13. So they often did not have a great education.  Some could barely write, but pride might make you put “read & write” on the census when it was not strictly true. And for most, writing was hard work, so putting a cross was just easier.

Not sure which Elizabeth you are looking at. I can see 2 in Ballyvalley in 1901. One who signed with a cross after saying she could read and write was single, so not yours. The other was blind, but nevertheless appears to have filled the whole form out and then signed it.  Not sure what was going on there. I wouldn’t rely too heavily on some information in documents like censuses. Many contain inaccuracies. 

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Upper_Clonallan/Ballyvalley/1250343/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Upper_Clonallan/Ballyvalley/1250344/

Yes it was common for men to marry late. If a parent didn’t approve of their choice of a bride they sometimes waited till the difficult parent was dead. But in this case I suspect Bernard was married before. (I mentioned that before). He appears to have had a son Bernard born c 1854, long before he married Elizabeth, so I’d say his marriage to her was a second marriage.