CARLISLE family from Down, Ireland to Canterbury, New Zealand

Marchbank,

According to the rootsireland site, William & Ellen were married on 19.1.1859 at Downpatrick Presbyterian.  William was a widower, and a shopkeeper from Clough. His father James was a farmer. Ellen was a spinster and lived in Ballydugan. Her father Robert was a farmer. Witnesses were Samuel Hay & William Martin.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church after which she’d attend her husband’s. So if you are interested in the Martin family Downpatrick Presbyterian records are probably the place to start.

In Clough there are 3 Presbyterian churches. The Non Subscribing church has records from 1792, Clough Presbyterian from 1791 & Seaforde from 1826. Copies of all those records are held in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. I don’t think they are on-line anywhere. So a personal visit to PRONI is required to research them.

Statutory birth registration started in Ireland in 1864. Looking at the birth records I see 5 children to this couple:

Un-named female 6.7.1864

Mary 18.4.1866

Robert 10.5.1868

Thomas 8.2.1870

Joseph 25.12.1871

In the early years of birth registration it was common to register a birth before a name had been agrees. Hence the un-named female. You can view those certificates free on the irishgenealogy site: https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/ Prior to 1864 you need to rely on church baptism records.

There’s some information on William Carlisle on this link, including details of his first wife:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140707085519/http://freepages.genealogy.r…

You haven't actually said what it is you are looking for. Let us know if this reply doesn't cover what you are after.

Good Morning Elwyn, and thank you.

I primarily posted because I am finally after more than 30 years of longing, on my to Ireland.

I will be there in May, I am not sure for how long as I am unsure what I can expect to achieve.

I would love some advice on how to plan my trip, PRONI first or should I start somewhere else then go there.

The place names I have are - Clough, Ballynahinch, Dunbeg, Ballydugan, where do I go to research more?

Michelle

Michelle,

I am happy to try and answer your questions but you still haven’t said what exactly you are looking for. Hard for me to tell you where to go when I don’t know what you are after. Can you clarify?

I guess a starting place be would be William's birth, his siblings and parents info and same for Ellen MARTIN,.

I do not know if William had any siblings, so cannot look for cousins etc.

I have a copy of a will here belonging to a James CARLISLE, but don't  know if it is the correct James, so if I could find that out, it would be great.

Would like to find photos of where they lived.

Sorry I am a bit vague.

Michelle

Michelle,

If going to PRONI, take photo id to get your reader’s ticket. Late opening is Thursday when it’s open till 9.00pm.

William’s birth (and that of his siblings) may be in one of the sets of church records I gave in my post of 14th February. They are on microfilm and you can print copies if you want. They are free to view and 30p a sheet to print. (You can’t scan them).  Bear in mind that the earliest church records for the Clough area start in 1791, so you’ll struggle to get back further than that.

I would also try Magherahamlet Presbyterian church. Their records start in 1831, and unusually for Presbyterian records, are on-line on the rootsireland site.  There was a William Carlisle born there 18.5.1833 to James Carlisle and Jane Irvine. No townland given unfortunately, but I think they lived in Dunbeg, judging by some later baptisms. There looks to have been several Carlisle families there, judging by Griffiths. They all lived near Magherahamlet Presbyterian church. Dunbeg is included in your list of place names, so obviously those are families to look at.

But there were several other farmers named James Carlisle in the local area. One in Lisbane for example. Hopefully the baptism records may reveal where your family lived, and then you’ll be able to focus in on the right one. Watch for spelling variations. The name appears as Carlile in some records. Exact spelling wasn’t something that bothered folk in Ireland much in the 1800s and you should expect it to vary.

Probate abstracts for Dunbeg Carlisles:

The Will of James Carlile late of Dunbeg County Down Farmer who died 3 September 1881 at same place was proved at Belfast by William Carlile and Pharis Carlile both of Dunbeg Farmers the Executors.

The above will is on-line on the PRONI wills site. Griffiths tells us he had plot 1 in Dunbeg Upper. That was a 25 acre farm which today is down a lane off the Martinpoole Rd. (You can see it on the Griffiths maps).

Probate of the Will of William Carlisle, Dunbeg, Co. Down, Farmer who died 29 December 1920 granted at Belfast 27 May 1921 to Robert John Abernethy & Samuel Carlisle, Farmers. Effects £366 15s 0d.

Carlisle James of Dunbeg Upper county Down farmer died 15 May 1935 Probate Belfast 9 July to Eliza Jane Carlisle the widow and Thomas John Carlisle farmer. Effects £28 10s.

Carlisle Samuel of Dunbeg Ballynahinch county Down farmer died 27 September 1947 Probate Belfast 6 November to Thomas John Carlisle farmer. Effects £688 15s. 10d.

Carlisle Margaret Jane of Ballymacarn and of Mount Hill Dunbeg both in county Down married woman died 25 May 1950 at latter place Probate Belfast 16 February to Robert McIlwaine and William Carlisle farmers. Effects £516 15s.

Carlisle Thomas John of Dunbeg Upper Ballynahinch county Down farmer died 3 February 1957 Probate Belfast 14 May to James Carlisle farmer. Effects £3632 5s. 5d.

Carlisle Agnes of Dunbeg Upper Ballynahinch county Down widow died 24 January 1958 Administration Belfast 20 March to William Carlisle farmer. Effects £697 13s.

None of the above wills are on-line but they are in PRONI in paper format and you can view them there.

There were 2 Carlisle farms in Dunbeg Upper in 1901. I also noted some Abernethy households. I saw at least one marriage between Carlisle & Abernethy so I dare say there are connections there.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Dunmore/Dunbeg_Upper/

If they were Presbyterian, the Carlisles most probably settled in Co. Down in the 1600s, from Scotland. (Literally half the county has that same background). However there are no comprehensive records of those early settlers, nor of precisely where in Scotland they came from. The odd family has some records and DNA also tells us that most came from the southern part of Scotland, often counties like Ayrshire, Wigtown & Kirkcudbright. There are quite a few Carlisles in Co Down in the 1630 Muster Rolls (spelling Carlell & Carlill) so the name was well established locally by that year.

Ellen Martin’s home is easy enough to locate. The 1859 marriage certificate tells us that she lived in Ballydugan and that her father was Robert, a farmer. Griffiths Valuation for 1863 lists him there. He had plot 5a which was a 43 acre farm. (Given the high quality of land in Co Down, that’d be a very prosperous farm). Plot 5a today is on the Lake Rd, overlooking Ballydugan Lake. The land ran down to the shores of the lake. In addition to plot 5, Robert had plot 6 which was another 18 acres. You can see where the farm is today by using the maps on the Griffiths Valuation site.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

You can follow through to see when Robert died and who replaced him by using the Valuation Revision records on the PRONI site. They go up to 1929.

I noted these probate abstracts on the PRONI wills site for Martins from Ballydugan:

Probate of the Will of William Martin late of Ballydugan County Down Farmer J.P. who died 8 September 1897 granted at Belfast to Thomas Q. Martin Woolen Draper and James Kerr Merchant both of Downpatrick said County

The above will is on-line on the PRONI wills site. It mentions various siblings including Ellen Carlisle. It also mentions money held in the Queensland National Bank, so perhaps he had lived in Australia at some point.

Martin William of Ballydugan Downpatrick county Down retired butler died 13 September 1952 Probate Belfast 23 March to William John McKibbin cleaner. Effects £3687 5s. 8d.

The above will is not on-line but should be held in PRONI in paper format, where you can read free. Not sure whether it’s your family or not but he lived near them anyway.

William Carlisle is listed in Griffiths as having plot 29 in Clough. That was a house, offices (outbuildings), a yard and garden (20 perches in size). The problem you face is that in the 1860s, rural houses didn’t have any numbers and the Griffiths maps doesn’t show where plot 29 was.  Finding it will be difficult. (The Griffiths plot numbers were an in-house numbering system and bear no relation to any number appearing on properties today). Looking at the property listing on the Griffiths site, 29 was somewhere between the police station and the and the Orange Hall. But that’s about as far as I can go. The Orange Hall is certainly still there today. Not sure about the police station. Most rural police stations have been disposed of as not needed with modern policing methods. Some have been demolished, others converted into private residences. I note that he lived in Infirmary St. There’s no Infirmary St in Clough today. (The village is only a couple of streets). However if you ask locally, someone may know where it was. There’s no infirmary in Clough, so no clues there. Population of Clough in 1841 was 431 people:

https://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0170.pdf

When you are in PRONI you might want to look at the OS Memoirs for the parish of Loughinisland. It gives a detailed description of the parish in the mid 1830s and often names folk living there. You should get a feel for what life was like then from that description. The OS memoirs are on the library shelves in PRONI, in the far corner, adjacent to the microfilm reading machines. The staff will show you where to get them.

Thank you so much Elwyn, that has helped with the planning, I will head straight to Belfast and Proni.

Michelle