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Divett/Coleman

Hi my great great grandfather and mother left ireland and moved to Dundee Scotland where they married .There names are Thomas Divett and Esther Coleman. Esther father was Thomas and mother was Ann Crigan i think . Thomas father was Patrick and his mother was Ann Alymer. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks

Peterdingy

Thursday 26th March 2020, 08:14AM

Message Board Replies

  • Hello Peter,

    I’m not related, but found a baptism transcription that may pertain to a brother of your Thomas Divett, though I did not find the baptism for Thomas himself. This baptism is for Michael, son of Patrick “Devit,” and Anne Aylemer. Michael was baptized in the Mullingar Catholic Parish in August of 1834.

    Your information shows that Thomas’s father was Patrick Devitt, not Peter Devitt. I have questions about that however, which you will see later.

    Michael’s baptism transcription was uncovered at the Find My Past (FMP) website, which primarily is a pay-as-you-go or subscription website, but does not charge to search for Catholic baptisms, marriages, and burials. Attached to each transcription is a link that will take you to the parish register where the baptism, marriage, or burial is recorded. These registers are held by the National Library of Ireland, Kildare Street, Dublin City.

    The link to view the FMP baptism transcription for Michael follows. Once you click on the link you may be asked to register with the FMP website. Registration is free. See the link at:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6596525

    From the FMP link above I accessed the baptism register entry for Michael Devit at the National Library of Ireland website. You can access the register at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000639812#page/64/mode/1up

    The entry is a typescript and so would not be a copy of the original baptism register. Michael’s baptism is the 5th entry down the register at number 1834, which is the year that Michael was born. His godparents are not recorded.

    Unfortunately, the baptism for Michael Devit did not record where he and his parents were living at the time of the baptism. The family did not necessarily live in Mullingar where Michael was baptized. Also, Michael may not have been baptized in the Mullingar Catholic Church, but in another Catholic Chapel located within the Mullingar catholic Parish. I’ll have more about this later.

    I next looked for the FMP marriage transcription for Patrick Devitt and Anne Aylmer, but didn’t find it.

    According to the National Library of Ireland website, Mullingar Catholic baptisms begin in 1741, while marriages are recorded from 1737, though there are gaps in both the baptism and marriage registers. There are also Mullingar Catholic burials or deaths, which are extent from 1757 to 1797. See the availability of these parish registers, along with a map of the Mullingar Catholic Parish at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0937

    The Mullingar Catholic Church from the 19th to the first 3rd of the 20th century is no longer standing but was replaced the Cathedral of Christ the King, which was constructed between 1932 and 1936, according to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website at: https://is.gd/brLQ6o

    You can view an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period of Mullingar and the “Catholic Chapel” where Michael may have been baptized. The map is from the GeoHive website link at: https://bit.ly/2wUBXNx

    Once the map downloads, make sure to click on “Close Menu” to view the full map and the location of the R.C. Chapel. The church is situated near the Royal Canal and off a street called, “Back of the Town,” where the National School House is also situated.

    Another Ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period shows the name of the church on the same location was St. Mary’s R.C. Church, but in this map, off Bishop’s Gate Street. See the map from GeoHive at: https://bit.ly/33X6K8h

    A Google Map of Modern Mullingar shows the Cathedral of Christ the King is in the same location as the old St. Mary’s R.C. Church near the Royal Canal: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5273025,-7.347373,16z

    For a Google Street View of the Cathedral, see: https://is.gd/yfvpPR

    As mentioned earlier, it’s possible that Michael was not baptized in the Mullingar church, as there were smaller Catholic Chapels in Walshestown North and Gainstown. The church or chapel where Michael was baptized would likely have depended on where he and his family lived at the time of the baptism. A Google Map shows the location of Walshestown and Gainestown, with Mullingar about half way between both locations: https://is.gd/GfoeWL

    You can see the “Mountain R.C. Chapel” in Walshestown on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period from GeoHive at the following link: https://bit.ly/3bGgXIT

    For the location of the R.C. Chapel in Gainestown, go to the Ordnance Surbey Map from GeoHive at: https://bit.ly/2WTWTi5

    For information about towns and churches near the Mullingar Catholic Parish, go to the 1837 edition of Lewis’s Topographical Dictionary of Ireland from the Library Ireland website link at: https://www.libraryireland.com/topog/M/Mullingar-Magheradernon-Westmeath...

    See the last paragraph in the description of Mullingar once the Topographical Dictionary downloads. This paragraph explains that the Mullingar Catholic Parish district encompassed the Civil Parishes of Lynn and Moylisker, and part of the parish of Carrick. Your Devitt family could have lived anywhere within this district.

    I next wanted to see if I could find Patrick or Ann Divett in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation, which was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for Westmeath was completed by the year 1854.

    Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman for the owner. This person was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

    You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the askaboutireland website link at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

    I didn’t find a Patrick Divett in Griffiths Valuation enumerated in Mullingar or the aforementioned Walshestown and Gainstown, or in the Civil Parishes of Lynn and Moylisker, and part of the parish of Carrick.

    But, Griffiths Valuation shows that an Anne “Devitt” leased property in Lynn, Civil Parish of Lynn. This Anne may have been the widow of Patrick.

    Below is the Griffiths Valuation transcription for Anne Devitt in Lynn:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 39b
    Civil Parish: Lynn
    Townland: Lynn
    Occupier: Anne Devitt
    Immediate Lessor: Rev. G. Morley Dennis
    Description of Tenement: House and Small Garden
    Area of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 5 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 5 Shillings
    ____

    Griffiths Valuation shows that Anne Devitt leased a house and small garden, but no land for farming from an Immediate Lessor named the Rev. G. Morley Dennis. The house was valued at 5 Shillings. She would not have paid a tax on the house as only those leaseholds valued over 5 Pounds were subject to the tax. The map reference number at the beginning of the record is a location marker showing where the property was located in Lynn on an Ordnance Survey Map compiled before the valuation was taken. The valuation maps are very similar to the valuation maps, minus the property location reference, that you saw earlier in this reply from GeoHive.

    A Google Map shows that Lynn is only 2.4 miles northwest of Gainestown, which means if your Divetts lived in Lynn, their Catholic Church would likely have been in Gainestown, as it was a lot closer than the church in Mullingar.

    See the Google Map of Lynn and Gainstown at: https://is.gd/Tb6a2V

    For a Google Street View of the road to Lynn, see: https://is.gd/NZlIWw

    Peter, have you come across the townland of Lynn, County Westmeath in your research of the Divett family?

    ESTHER COLEMAN

    Your information shows that Esther Coleman’s parents were Thomas Coleman and Anne Crigan.

    While at the FMP website I looked for and found the baptism transcription for Esther Coleman, who was baptized in the Rochfortbridge Catholic Parish on 26 April 1839. Rochfortbridge was in the Civil Parish of Castlelost.

    The FMP transcription shows that first name of Esther’s mother is “Ony,” which is an alternate spelling, or nickname for Honora, or Ann. Ony’s last name is spelled, “Crimon,” in the transcription, which you can view at the following FMP link: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6711411

    Once the page downloads you can enlarge the baptism register by means of round icons in the upper center/ right of the screen. The icons are white with green backgrounds. You can also access the full-screen function by clicking on the last icon on the right with the two arrows pointing northeast and southwest.

    There are two facing pages of the baptism register. Esther’s baptism record is on the right-hand page, 4th entry down from the top at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000635266#page/110/mode/1up

    I have a different interpretation of Ony’s last name. It looks like “Crinian,” rather than Crimon. Esther’s godparents are John Wyer and Margaret Sheeran.

    I also found the FMP Rochfortbridge baptism transcriptions and baptism records for three of Esther’s siblings. The names and years of baptisms of these siblings are:

    Patt, 1836
    Thomas, 1841
    John, 1844
    ____

    THE BAPTISM OF PATT COLMAN

    Patt is the abbreviation for Patrick. The family name is spelled “Colman.” He was baptized on 1 October 1836. His father is Tom Colman. His mother is Honora Crennan. His FMP transcription can be accessed at the following link: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6167692

    Patt’s baptism is the first entry at the top of the left register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000635266#page/79/mode/1up

    The spelling of his mother’s maiden name appears to be “Crinnian,” rather than Crennan. Patt’s godparents are Patt Geraty and Mary Carty.

    THE BAPTISM OF THOMAS COLEMAN

    According to the FMP website Thomas Coleman was baptized on 13 December 1841, His father is Thos Coleman and his mother Ony Crenion in the transcription, which you can access at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6711486

    A copy of Thomas Coleman’s original baptism is the 2nd entry down from the top of the right-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000635266#page/139/mode/1up

    Thomas’s godparents are John Kelly and Anne Hannon.

    THE BAPTISM OF JOHN COLEMAN

    The FMP transcription for John Coleman shows he was baptized on 21 July 1844. His father is Thos Coleman. His mother is Honor Crimmins. See the transcription at the following FMP link: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6711552

    John’s baptism is the 4th entry down from the top of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000635266#page/166/mode/1up

    John’s godfather is Francis Farrell. I could not make out the first name of his godmother, but her last name is Wilson.

    Rochfortbridge, also known as Rochford Desmene, was not located in the Mullingar Civil Parish, but in the Civil Parish of Moylisker. However, the Catholic Parish for people living in Moylisker, was Mullingar, according to a book I have by Brian Mitchell, called, “A Guide To Irish Parish Registers.”

    A Google Map shows that Rochfortbridge is 9 miles south of Mullingar: https://is.gd/g2yLTp

    Rochfortbridge can be viewed on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 12842 time period at:
    https://bit.ly/3atzvMD

    The Church you see on the map is what I think is Christ Church, Church of Ireland.

    By the time of the Ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period, an R.C. Church is situated in Rochfortbbridge: https://bit.ly/2xBxVJK

    The Rochfortbridge Catholic Parish baptism records for the Coleman children did not record where the family had been living. As mentioned earlier, Rochfortbridge was located in the Civil Parish of Castlelost, and so I next wanted to see if I could find Thomas Coleman or Anne Coleman leasing property in the Castlelost parish by going to Griffiths Valuation.

    I found only one Thomas Coleman in Griffiths Valuation leasing property in the parish of Castlelost. The townland where he leased the property is Gneevebane, which according to a Google Map, is 3 miles southwest of Rochfortbridge: https://is.gd/jsQqqJ

    Griffiths Valuation shows that Thomas Coleman leased a house and no land in Gneevebane from an Immediate Lessor named Anne Curey. The house was valued at 5 Shillings. See the transcription below:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 1b
    Civil Parish: Castlelost
    Townland:Gneevebane
    Occupier: Thomas Coleman
    Immediate Lessor: Anne Curey
    Description of Tenement: House
    Area of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 5 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 5 Shillings
    ____

    It is possible that Thomas Coleman was not a farmer, but in one of the trades, or perhaps retired, as he leased no Land in Gneevebane. It’s possible the Thomas Coleman in Gneevebane was Esther Coleman’s father.

    To view an Ordnance Survey Map of Gneevebane from the 1837 to 1842 time period, go to the GeoHive link at: https://bit.ly/2X6r0Dp

    For a Google Street View looking toward Gneevebane, see: https://is.gd/yz7aIf

    For a Google Sattelite View of Gneevebane, go to: https://is.gd/Qinpvi

    SCOTLAND RECORDS

    I found the marriage index for Thomas “Davit” and Esther Coleman, as well as the birth indexes for four their children at the Ancestry.com and FamilySearch websites. I don’t know if you have these records.

    The marriage for Thomas and Esther took place in Dundee, Angus, Scotland, on 24 June 1867:

    Scotland, Select Marriages, 1561-1910

    Name: Thomas Davit
    Gender: Male
    Marriage Date: 24 Jun 1867
    Marriage Place: Dundee, Angus, Scotland
    Spouse: Esther Colman

    FHL Film Number: 6035516

    Source Information
    Ancestry.com. Scotland, Select Marriages, 1561-1910 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014.
    ____

    Below are the four birth and or baptism indexes for Thomas and Esther’s children Ann, Thomas, Peter, and Essie. One of the indexes for Peter is from Ancestry.com, while the other index for Peter is from FamilySearch:

    Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

    Name: Ann Devett
    Gender: Female
    Birth Date: 14 Mar 1868
    Birth Place: Cadder,Lanark,Scotland

    Father: Thomas Devett
    Mother: Esther Coleman

    FHL Film Number: 6035516

    Source Information
    Ancestry.com. Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014.
    ____

    Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

    Name: Thomas Divot
    Gender: Male
    Birth Date: 24 Dec 1869
    Birth Place: Kirkintilloch, Dunbarton, Scotland
    Father: Thomas Divot
    Mother: Esther Coleman
    FHL Film Number: 6035516

    Source Information
    Ancestry.com. Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014.
    ____

    Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

    Name: Peter Divit
    Gender: Male
    Birth Date: 21 Jan 1872
    Birth Place: New Monkland,Lanark,Scotland

    Father: Thomas Divit
    Mother: Esther Coleman

    FHL Film Number: 6035516

    Source Information
    Ancestry.com. Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014.
    ____

    Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

    Name: Peter Divit
    Event Type: Birth
    Event Date: 21 Jan 1872
    Event Place: New Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
    Event Place (Original): New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
    Gender: Male

    Father's Name: Thomas Divit
    Mother's Name: Esther Coleman

    Citing this Collection
    "Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950." Database. FamilySearch. http://FamilySearch.org : 18 March 2020.
    Index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City.
    ____

    Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

    Name: Essie Divet
    Gender: Female
    Birth Date: 23 Jul 1874
    Birth Place: Cadder, Lanark, Scotland

    Father: Thomas Divet
    Mother: Esther Coleman

    FHL Film Number: 6035516

    Source Information
    Ancestry.com. Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014.
    ____

    All of the above are only indexes. Copies of the original marriage and birth/baptism records will give more information about the Thomas and Esther and the four children. More on this later.

    I also located Thomas and Esther “Danat,” as well as two of their children in the 1871 Scotland Census index at Ancestry.com. At the time of the census the family had been living in Shirva Glen No 1, Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire.

    A copy of the original 1871 census is not available through Ancestry.com. There are indexes for each of the family members. For example, Thomas is shown to be a 27 year old miner born in Ireland. Esther is 25 years old and also born in Ireland. The two children are 3 year old Annie, born in Cadder, Lanarkshire, and 1 year old Thomas, born in Kirkintilloch, Dumbarton.

    If you go back to the birth indexes you’ll see that Annie was born in Cadder, Lancashire, while Thomas was born in Kirkintilloch, Dumarton:

    1871 Scotland Census

    Name: Thomas Danat
    Age: 27
    Estimated birth year: abt 1844
    Relationship: Head

    Spouse's name : Esther Danat
    Gender: Male
    Where born: Ireland

    Registration Number: 498
    Registration district: Kirkintilloch

    Civil Parish: Kirkintilloch
    County: Dumbartonshire
    Address: Shirva Glen No 1
    Occupation: Miner

    ED: 11
    Household schedule number: 38
    Line: 10
    Roll: CSSCT1871_87

    Name: Esther Danat
    Age: 25
    Estimated birth year: abt 1846
    Relationship: Wife
    Spouse's name : Thomas Danat
    Gender: Female
    Where born: Ireland
    Occupation: Miner's Wife

    Name: Annie Danat
    Age: 3
    Estimated birth year: abt 1868
    Relationship: Daughter
    Father's name: Thomas Danat
    Mother's name: Esther Danat
    Gender: Female
    Where born: Caddar, lanarks

    Name: Thomas Danat
    Age: 1
    Estimated birth year: abt 1870
    Relationship: Son
    Father's name: Thomas Danat
    Mother's name: Esther Danat
    Gender: Male
    Where born: Kirkintilloch, Dumbarton

    Source Citation
    Parish: Kirkintilloch; ED: 11; Page: 11; Line: 10; Roll: CSSCT1871_87
    ____

    If ages in the 1871 census are accurate, Thomas at age 27 would have been born circa 1844. At age 25 Esther would have been born circa 1846. Her baptism, seen earlier in this reply, shows she was born in 1839.

    Many Scots records can be found at a very good pay-per-view website called Scotlands People, which I have used in the past, though that was many years ago when I had credits left over at the site.

    The Scotlands People website can be found at: https://is.gd/k6WjiV

    Indexes at Scotlands People are free to access, but full civil or statutory records as well as church records need to be purchased by buying credits.

    Scotlands People does have the statutory marriage record for Thomas and Esther, as I found the index of their marriage at the site, which you can view below:

    Statutory registers – Marriages

    DAVIT or COLEMAN
    THOMAS COLEMAN
    ESTHER
    24/6/1867
    Dundee, St Mary's [Lochee]
    ____

    Scotlands People also has the index of their Church marriage:

    Church registers - Catholic Registers Banns and Marriages

    DAVIT or COLEMAN
    THOMAS COLEMAN
    ESTHER
    24/6/1867
    Dundee, St Mary's [Lochee]
    ____

    You can buy credits to purchase both the statutory as well as the church marriage records for Thomas and Esther. See: https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/our-charges

    WAS PATRICK DEVITT REALLY THOMAS’S FATHER?

    Peter, when I was researching the Devitt baptisms at FMP, I didn’t find the baptism for Thomas, son of Patrick Devitt and Anne Aylmer, but I did find the baptism of a Thomas Devitt, son of Peter Devitt and Anne Aylmer.

    Are you sure that Patrick, and not Peter, was Thomas’s father?

    The transcription for Thomas Devitt, son of Peter Devitt and Anne Aylmer at FMP shows he was baptized in the Mullingar Catholic Parish on 14 June 842.

    You can view the transcription at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6768360

    I found a copy of the original National Library of Ireland baptism record for Thomas from the FMP link above. His baptism is on the left-hand register page, 6th entry down from the top. The first name of Thomas’s godfather is Patt. His last name looks like Huit, but I can’t be sure of that. Thomas’s godmother is Nancy Murray. See: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000635194#page/69/mode/1up

    If you do not have Thomas and Anne’s 1867 Dundee, Angus, Scotland, statutory and church marriage records, you may want to purchase them. The full marriage record may clarify who Thomas’s parents were, and may also confirm the names of Anne’s parents as well.

    To read about the pay-per-view charges at Scotlands People, go to:
    https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/our-charges

    Earlier, you saw the Griffiths Valuation entry for Anne Devitt leaseing a house and small garden from the Rev. G. Morley Dennis in the townland of Lynn, Civil Parish of Lynn. Knowing that a Peter Devitt had also married an Anne Aylmer, it is possible that the Anne Devitt in Grififths Valuation was the widow of Peter, rather than Patrick Devitt, but there is no way of knowing that conclusively just from the Griffiths Valuation record alone.

    Kind Regards Peter,

    Dave Boylan

    davepat

    Tuesday 31st March 2020, 06:16PM
  • Hi Dave , your imformation that you sent i cannot thank you enough for your tine that you have spent on this , im actually overwhelmed with it , its a lot to take in at the moment, it will take a bit to digest all the new imformation you have sent .The Scottish side of the Coleman/ Devitt some i have found out but was never able to find out much about there lifes in ireland .Im just looking at this on my phone just now so will need to put the computer on to see your maps etc properly. Only your last point on Patrick/Peter , yes i think Peter is the father .Once again Dave i never thought id hear much from this but im totally overwhelmed by your response,cant think you enough .Will be in touch when ive had a proper look at everything,Peter

    Peterdingy

    Wednesday 1st April 2020, 10:09AM
  • You're welcome Peter and many thanks for the kind words.

    With Best Wishes,

    Dave

    davepat

    Thursday 2nd April 2020, 09:53AM
  • Dave cant think you enough for your efforts on this , next time im in the area i think i owe you a few pints haha ,cheers Peter

    Peterdingy

    Friday 3rd April 2020, 03:19PM
  • A couple of jars of Guinness with a Jameson's chaser (neat) sounds brilliant Peter!

    Many thanks.

    Dave

    davepat

    Saturday 4th April 2020, 09:46AM
  • Thats a plan then Dave ...

    Peterdingy

    Sunday 5th April 2020, 08:55AM