Elizabeth Young and James White

Hi Carol,

it appears from the certificate that the father of Lizzie was a sergeant in the RIC from my reading of it, I understand that the barracks and workhouse were in close proximity. This should be verifible from the library in Dundalk research section.

It is possible the name of the father is the same say born Robert Edward but used the Edward bit for life purposes. I looked for her birth but there are a number of Elizabeths born in the early 1870s in Ireland, as the father is in the RIC it is unlikely she is the child born to Robert in Dunleer as they were never stationed in the same county as birth or where they were from.

This can be confirmed as his enlistment records should be available, I will look a bit further later, there is a private Facebook page Royal Irish COnstabulary 1816 to 1922 A Forgotten Irish Police Force and if you apply to join someone will probably answer the query, there is a book on the history containing that information but I do not have a copy, it was published recently enough but is sold out.

I have visitors at the moment and will revert later this evening.

Regards
Pat

Thank you Pat,

I do believe that I have the correct Elizabeth, as her sister Alicia was a witness at her marriage.  I can't find it at the moment but I'm pretty sure that I've seen her sister Catherine Reilly as present at the birth of one or two of her children.  Perhaps it is more likely that Robert was born out of the area and took up his posting in Dundalk?  I haven't yet been able to find his marriage to Barbara Barry but one of his daughters married in Dublin, so that could be a possible birthplace for Robert.

Thank you for your interest.  I've only recently discovered my connection to Louth and Dundalk in particular.  I was adopted as a baby and although I grew up knowing that, I didn't go looking for information about my birth parents until 18 years ago.  I've had contact with my mother virtually since then but have only just discovered, via DNA, that my father was from Dundalk.

Regards,

Carol

Carol, how are you again, so quick. I see an 1891 marriage of a Catherine Young to a Patrick Reilly in Dundalk, her father is an ex policeman at this stage and she also lives in Ladywell, are you aware of this free site, you sign in, civil records are there with all births back to 1864, first year of registration, and marriages back a certain date and deaths also and on to 1965, births to 1915 I think, https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ the church records are not online for Dundalk or Louth, mainly Dublin and Cork / Kerry only. Church records are online here for RC but you need a year and month or frustration sets in, can be a tricky read, https://registers.nli.ie/

I searched all Young with a mother Barbara and found 6 births in Louth, Catherine 1869; Liz 1873; Edward 1866; Jas or Jock 1864; Barbara 1863 and Margaret 1861. The registration district is for Ardee for the four post 1864 and the family lived in Dunleer, I see another Young family living in Drumcar also, just unusual name in colse proximity.

Here is an interesting Louth site, http://www.jbhall.freeservers.com/ I see reference to the name young going back to the late 1700s there. 

However Carol we really need to see the service record of the policeman to establish where he is from, his pension records should also be available with a bit of searching, most of the actual records are I think held in Kew in London but are available to find elsewhere I think. I will search an online site to see if I can locate ay mention of him or have a look for the book. I found no marriage to suit but as only church records are aavailable they may not exist or have being lost. The othere possibility is they married outside Ireland which takes me back to the service record for information, tehre ar 3 Edward marriages between 1849 and 1861, the one in Meath most suitable date wise is not correct as the wife is of a totally different name, there are a lot of Robert marriages and mostly in Tyrone or other northern counties, as in now Northern Ireland. The only Young with a wife Barbara is married in Tyrone but it was a James Young.

Regards

Pat

Hello again Pat,

I'm aware of the genealogy site you mention and have used it quite a bit so far.  I have also had a problem finding a marriage for Robert Young and Barbara Barry, even though I've tried England and Scotland.  I'll try and pursue the service record for further information. 

Many thanks for your help,

Carol

Hi Carol.

I've just joined this site & very interested in your post. My G Grandfather was a James White, married to a Lizzie, ? Young. Was your James White born in Lancaster, England & killed in WW1? If so, then when we have a family connection

Thanks

sharon

Hi Sharon,

We have a connection on Ancestry (we share 47cM and 6 segments).  Yes, James White is our Great Grandfather. 

Since writing my original enquiry I have discovered quite a bit more about James and Lizzie and their parents. I'll contact you via Ancestry.

Regards,

Carol

Thats brilliant Carol. Thank you. I've not used my ancestry account for a couple of years as worked on it via my nieces account. I'm having problems resetting the password but hopefully will be sorted asap

Hi Carol,

Not sure if you have sent any yet but i've had a look on ancestry & have received no message as of yet.

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

Yes, I sent a message on 17th June, unless there is another Sharon White and I've sent it to the wrong one?

Are you based in Dublin and been on Ancestry since December 2019?  If so, that's the one I've messaged.  I hadn't added any specific information as I had quite a busy few days but if I've messaged the right person (i.e. you) then I'll write more once you've confirmed.

Carol

Hi Carol. No, that's not me. I'm based in London & joined November 18

That's weird!  Have you done an Ancestry DNA test or are you just a member of the family history part?

There is a Sharon White who shares the same G Grandfather based in Dublin.  She'll be a bit confused with my message to her!

Okay, so who was your grandfather and father?  And what is your Ancestry Username?  Maybe I can find you with that.

Carol

Hi Carol.

Maybe we have our wires crossed then. My G grandad James White was born in St Helens, Lancaster in 1881. He married an Elizabeth /Lizzie. He was in the Royal Irish Rifles, enlisted in Dundalk & was KIA on 11.11.14. Is this the same James?

Hi Sharon,

I believe it is the same James White.  However his army and marriage records show that he was born in 1873 in St. Helens (although I haven't been able to find a birth record there for him).  He was in the Royal Irish Rifles and killed in action on 11.11.14.  He was married to Elizabeth (Lizzie) Young on 25th Jan 1893 in Dundalk.

On Ancestry there are a number of Family trees that use the 1881 date of birth for James but that would mean that he got married to Lizzie at the age of 13, which is clearly wrong. 

His father was also a James (born in Faughert near Dundalk) and his grandfather was Patrick (who lived and died in Faughert).

James and Lizzie had 9 children: Peter, Patrick Joseph, James, Francis, John, Edward, Michael Joseph, Robert Joseph and Anne Elizabeth.  Peter was my grandfather.

I have more information that I can provide but I'd prefer to share it directly with you.

Carol

Hi Carol.

I had a good look on ancestry last night. From what I can work out, some people have mixed 2 James & Lizzie Whites lives & children together, something that I had originally done. I saw that some people used my GGrandads military archive records for info on the other James & Lizzie kids. This I know as it had my grandads army number on them. Some in my tree had added Lizzie Young as James wife & Barbara Barry as her mum. I saw a marriage cert too for James & Lizzie & their ages, nor where James was born match to mine & this James was born 1873 & died in 1937. My James father was called William. So, as I did, if you have used their info, you too have possibly entwined the two families together. Hope this makes sense.

Hi Shal,

You're right, that's exactly what's been happening. I haven't used anyone else's information though. I've used primary sources where available - particularly irish databases.  There's still a puzzle here though.  After your last message I rechecked my James' military records, including his pension details and the childrens' names do belong to my James and Lizzie.  I then rechecked their birth records on the Irish database and they are correct.  My James' service number was 8983 and I think it's probably the same one you have?  James and Lizzie's oldest son had been sent to live with his Great Aunt in Dungooly, near Dundalk, so I know that the ancestry I have for my James is correct, in that his father and grandfather were Irish, from the Dundalk area and not the William White that has been used in other trees.  I also know that my James was born in 1873 (at least from his marriage record).  I have not been able to confirm his claim to have been born in St. Helens (that only appears on his service record - in the 1911 census he claims to have been born in Co. Louth.  Can't find him in the 1901 census but Lizzie and at least 2 of her children were in Dundalk Workhouse).

Do you have any idea why your James (if he is not the same as mine) would have enlisted in an Irish regiment?  My James claimed on his marriage cert that his father (James) was a Carpenter.  What did William do?

Carol 

Hi Carol.
The mystery deepens!. James dad William was a foreman in a chemical works in St Helens & came from Ireland but I have no idea where. I can find them in UK censuses. James service number was indeed 8983. He is also listed in the St Helens roll of honour for WW1 & it gives details from when he was born & where he lived growing up in St Helens, his wife's name Elizabeth, his service number & where they were living in Dundalk when he was killed. I spoke with my Dad today who confirmed his uncles names, James had 6 boys and Dad said there was no aunt as much as he can recall. He also gave their names which match the other Lizzie & James. I have no idea why he joined the rifles. I also cannot find him, Elizabeth or their children in the 1901 or 1911 census in England, Scotland or Wales so I have no idea where they were between then. Only the Scottish census to look at now to see if they were living there. I have also looked on the military sites & also Googled James with his service number & it matches the info I have. I had originally used the 1911 census for my James then realised his age did not match my James. So, as you can see, the mystery deepens.

Hi again.

Forgot to add. When looking at his military pension info for Lizzie, it only had the names of 4 of his sons listed but it listed dependants as 6. Which is where asking dad today their names came in & he named them all without me saying them. Dad & his siblings grew up knowing his granddad was KIA & they are the ones who gave us his info. Sadly, Dad is the only one here now so cannot ask the others & Dad said although they knew about him, they never asked questions about him, just accepted what they were told. His nan also polished his penny medal to within an inch of its life. Dad now has that one The only thing left for me to find more info is to visit the archives at Kew, something I'm hoping to do in the next couple of months.

Hi,

Really need to get to the bottom of this.  My email address is carolrussell655@gmail.com - perhaps we can communicate through that?  I can send you my James' marriage record.  Lizzie is on the Irish 1911 census.  I think she is also on the 1901 but as a Workhouse inmate. 

Does the penny medal have his service number on it? 

Carol

Hi Carol,

Have emailed you. Hopefully we can crack this

Sharon