Katherine Ryan Sweeney -seeking place of Ireland birth

Hello Mary and welcome to Ireland Reaching Out Ryan is going to be a difficult one, anyhow So if Catherine was born 1884, arrived in USA 1895 she would only have been 11 years of age, highly unlikely she went on her own so she would have to traveled with parents. Have you searched for a Catherine with that way. On the DNA - is there any older member of the family that has done DNA, reason I ask, the further back in generations the better the matches (if that makes sence) i.e. did any of her sons or can any of her sons do their DNA Over half of the Ryan name in Ireland is located in the Tipperary area (I believe) so if we went with that and tried to work back with that. Just one other thing is there no parents listed on her marriage registration and did she marry the year after she arrived in USA Geraldine

I think there are a number of other possible matches within that timeframe - three Dublin examples e.g. Catherine Ryan born 26th May 1883 to Edward Ryan and Mary Oakley residents of Mecklenburgh St. Dublin city, Catherine Ryan born 21st July 1883 to Owen Ryan and Sarah Roe of George's Ave. Dublin city Catherine Ryan born 21st December 1883 to parentrs Matthew Ryan and Margaret Neill at Kingstown (Dún Laoghaire) Co. Dublin.. etc Have you located Catherine's death cert - maybe it might mention parents names ? Without parents or family details or a place of birth, from US records, it's going to be difficult to be certain of any potential matches... p.s. that 'Donnybrook' birth was actually in Merrion, the registration sub-district was Donnybrook.

Hi Mary, I agree with Geraldine that she probably didn't emigrate solo in those stated years. With that assumption, I found a immigration record on the Ellis Island website that you might want to check out...not entirely sure this is your family. What peaked my interest is that their destination was Philadelphia and she had a brother named Francis. You will find this record on Ancestry as well....her birthdate is a few years older, but it still would make her 18 when she married. She is listed as Katie Ryan, arrival date 16 May 1896 on the ship Campania..arrived in New York. With her were her father Thomas, mother Elizabeth, and siblings: Jane, Mary E., John T., David, Francis, and Fanny. Just a long shot here!!

As a general piece of advice, it’s wise to take a relaxed attitude to dates of birth for folk born in Ireland in the 1800s. Most people didn't celebrate birthdays and often didn’t know when they were born, and when later officialdom asked for a date, they often just made one up.

Secondly whilst most Catholic families were pretty quick to get their children baptised, and so that date can be reliable, they sometimes left it a while before registering the birth (especially if they lived some distance from the nearest Registrar). It was free to register a birth within a certain number of weeks, but after that there was a late registration fee. Obviously no sensible person wanted to pay that if they could avoid it, so it was common to “adjust” the date of birth to one that avoided any fee. So even when you find someone’s date of birth it may not be anywhere near correct. (And the proof of the pudding is that you may well find a baptism say 2 months before they were apparently born).

So open mind required on dates of birth.

Next, you say you have gone through all the possible Ryan births between 1881 and 1887. Did you include those with no forename? It was quite common in those days to register a birth without a forename. Of the 6170 Ryans born 1881 – 1887, 154 had no forename. Not helpful I know, but you need to be aware of that.

Can you confirm that neither Katherine’s marriage nor death certificates have any parents names? You are going to struggle to find the right family without them.

Did she have any siblings? (And if so, have you investigated their marriage and death certificates for parents names?).

You have received excellent advice from Geraldine, Shane and Elwyn so I will only offer one other source. Did she apply for a Social Security number? The original application form would show her parents names. Also, you indicated that your brother tested his DNA. Did he or you pursue any of his close matches. He would likely have 2nd and 3rd cousins maybe not all on the Ryan line but you may get more information contacting a close match. Roger McDonnell

Dear Geraldine, Shane, Carolyn, Elwyn and Roger, Thank you ALL for your wonderful responses. Grandmother Ryan's 1906 marriage license does not show her parents names on it. Her death certificate indicated her sons name, Francis but I already know about him. He is deceased. She noted on the license that she was working as an operator-I believe this was at a manufacturer of gas meters and her future husband also worked there. I do have her Social Security number but I will need to pursue seeing her original application using the Freedom of Information Act in order to get her parents names. My grandparents had 4 boys and all are deceased. I have located a female cousin who does not know about my grandparents history except that my grandmother was from Ireland. I have started looking at your recommendations and again,, I really appreciate the support! Angela

Angela, I saw on the 1940 census that your grandmother Catherine Sweeney's birthplace is given as "Irish Free State"--that is, the 26 counties in the Republic of Ireland. I hope this is helpful.

Hello Patricia, Yes I have that information and as they say, "so close and yet so far" in that I wish she would have put the name of the parish! Angela

Hello again Angela I think there are a few avenues maybe to still follow, especially as Roger said the social security number and the Ellis Island Record Lots of good advice above from Patricia, Elwyn, Shane, Carolys and Roger. Just one other thing, I think I would pursue the DNA a bit further and try and narrow down the County/Counties. Have you uploaded your/your brothers DNA to Gedmatch. When you do you will get a kit number. You can run that kit number and it will give you a list of matches with email addresses. You could contact some of them Also there are several County DNA groups on Facebook (but you do need to have a kit number in most cases to find matches in the group) If you need any help with Gedmatch my email is rahan@irelandxo.com. Keep us posted on how you get on Happy Christmas everyone

Hello Geraldine, Thank you so much for this great suggestion! I shall ask my brother if he will upload his DNA to Gedmatch. If he runs into technical difficulties in doing that, I may take you up on your offer of help! Merry Christmas to you! Angela

Dear Carolyn, Geraldine, Shane, Elwyn and Roger Happy New Year to all of you! Carolyn, thanks to your wonderful hint, I was able to match up the information you found on my grandmother Kate Ryan to her parents names listed on her Social Security card application. The name she used on the card was Kathryn Ryan. Unfortunately, the application only showed Ireland with no specific parish. I did find, through information on her sister Maria Elizabeth, their birth place in Ireland and that was Maclone, formerly Queens County, changed in 1992 to Laois County, province of Leinster. I have found her parents marriage record which showed THEIR father's names . I have been working on this project since August and with your wonderful help, I am going to surprise my brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews with this family tree. My deepest appreciation for giving me my ancestors. Mary Angela Sweeney True

Hello To All and trust this finds you well. Through the Griffith Valuation records, I have located the possible location of my great, great, great grandfather's leased farm in Castlebrack. The bump in the road for me is understanding the map of the plots associated with the land owner.

I'm wondering if someone might help me to  narrow down the map location(s)  please? As it is, I've looking on my screen moving slowly through the area looking for the plot number of either #10 (the shared plot with a William Barnett and Sarah Cox), or #13 ,the 20 acre plot showing  William Ryan. 

It is Laois (Queens) county under Ryan William

Land leased by Robert Deverell

Land owned by Henry Johnson, Esq. and Henry Sandes, Esq.

There are 2 William Ryans listed- 1 who shares land with two others and then a William Ryan showing with 20 acres.   

https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNa…

https://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/single_layer/i8.php?lat=&longt…

 

Thank you for any feedback you might provide.

 

Warm regards,

Mary Angela Sweeney True 

Angela,

Your William Ryan lived in the townland of Mucklone, which is part of the parish of Castlebrack. So you need to focus on the map of Mucklone.

Looking at Griffiths (compiled in 1851 for this parish), I can see William on plots 10 & 13 as you said. Plot 10 is land only (ie there was no house). Plot 13 contains the house.  So he had a farm and 20 acres on plot 20 and then another 5 acres on plot 10 which he shared with Sarah. (If 2 people lived in the same townland and had the same name, the clerks would differentiate between them by use of an agnomen or nickname. This hasn’t occurred with Mucklone, so you can be fairly sure it’s just the one William Ryan).

I can see plot 10 in Mucklone but there’s no plot 13 on the Griffiths map. That is probably because the map was compiled 20 years later and some of the plots will have changed.  If you are trying to find Mucklone today, the modern House of Gowns (Eircode R32 X6N4) is in the middle of it.  Off the N80 road.

Judging by Google Earth Mucklone remains an agricultural area, as it was in 1851. However many of the smaller farms will likely have been consolidated into larger farms now, and many of the older buildings demolished.

In the 1901 census there were 7 inhabited houses in Mucklone and a population of 32. (No Ryans). All were engaged in farming in one way or another.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Queen_s_Co_/Cappalough/Mucklone/

 

Dear Elwyn,

With the deepest respect, I say Thank You for helping to pinpoint where my Great, Great Grandfather's farm was located.  I started crying when I read your message. 

He, William Ryan, passed away in 1895 (age 97!) and his son Thomas  left and took his entire family to the United States the following year in 1896. His  spinster sister Susan Ryan followed him to the United States the following year in 1897. I too have not seen any Ryans left in the area of the farm.  Being a tenant farmer, I know he didn't own these lands and I'm not sure if the actual landowner Henry Sandes Esq. paid for Thomas and his family's passage to America or whether there were other means Thomas used to pay for the passage. 

 

With a warm heart and grateful soul,

Mary Angela Sweeney True 

 

Angela,

I can’t answer the question of how the family paid for their tickets with certainty but it’s possible that they did it by selling the farm. As you say, the property was rented but there would still be quite a bit of capital that belonged to the Ryan family and not the landlord. They could sell the unexpired portion of their lease, plus the animals, crops and farming machinery, and the contents of the house. That all together might easily have paid their fares.

Hello Elwyn,

 

Thank you for helping me with that perspective. I didn't realize that they would have owned all of the things you mentioned. That makes sense to me in that after William Ryan died, his son Thomas doesn't leave for America until a year later. That would have given him enough time to sell off everything they couldn't take with them. What a difficult decision it must have been for all of them to make but from what I've read of those times, it might have been a leave or die one.

Warm regards for your insight Elwyn.

 

Mary Angela Sweeney True 

 

I don’t think it was as bad as "leave or die”. The famine years were long past by the time your family left. I think it was more that they had a choice between a hard life with little money in Ireland or the prospect of something better overseas. The same factors that drive most modern migration. Plus they wouldn’t have wanted to leave their elderly parents. Presumably the parents felt too old to emigrate. Thomas would have stayed on the farm for his parents sake. Once his parents were both dead then he was free to leave.

Someone evidently bought their farm and kept it going after they left, so it was probably viable, but maybe not all that profitable? Perhaps the land wasn’t all that good?

Irish emigrants to America and elsewhere wrote home and told those back in Ireland all about life in the US, plus there were many articles in the Irish papers about life in America, so the Ryans would have been fully informed about their prospects.  There will undoubtedly have been some sadness in leaving – you have perhaps read about American Wakes as they were called where your departure was treated like a death – but at the same time there was probably a skip in their step too.

Plenty of "Irish angst" plays explore this dichotomy. Brian Friel’s ”Philadelphia here I come” for example.