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It is possible that my 3g grandfather Lawrence Power and his wife Margaret had their children in 1840 (Mary) and 1842 (John) in Rosbercon. There are baptisms for these children. He wound up in Chicago owning a boat building business on the Chicago River (which burned in the Chicago Fire). Don't have much except the names that identify the Rosbercon family. There was some feeling theycame from Waterford. Anyway- There is a river there so it seemed he maybe worked on boats there as well. Is there a business directory from 1840-1850? I know that was famine time however. One problem is there is a Lawrence Power in Millbanks/Rosbercon in Griffiths in 1852 but that would mean a farmer probably right? I'm worried that might be the Lawrence having kids John/Mary which are very common names. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts. I've been thru baptisms/marriages/ tithes/Griffiths. thanks! MB

MBradley

Monday 26th July 2021, 04:10AM

Message Board Replies

  • MB:

    Slater's Directory contained the main listing of tradesmen, clergy, gentry etc. for various towns in Ireland. This link is for the 1846 directory for the Province of Leinster and on the right column, you will see three links for New Ross and Rossbercon  https://www.failteromhat.com/slaterl.php  You can review the three links for any evidence of Laurence Power. Most of the entries should be for New Ross which was a much larger town.

    Roger McDonnell

    Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Tuesday 27th July 2021, 07:50PM
  • Thank you! He wasn't there but that's not too surprising. I would guess he was a laborer at that point rather than an owner. Good to have somewhere to check though. Best, MB

    MBradley

    Wednesday 28th July 2021, 12:17AM
  • Hello MB

    After going through the following details in this reply, see if you can better determine if the Lawrence Power in the Millbanks, Rosbercon, Kilkenny/Wexford area, is the Lawrence Power you are looking for.

    I searched Slater's Commercial Directory of Ireland 1846 for New Ross and Rosbercon, but did not find Lawrence Power listed. There are three pages of the directory for Millbanks and Rosbercon. The directory was referenced from the John Grenham.com website. You can access the three pages of the directory at:

    https://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0389.pdf
    https://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0390.pdf
    https://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0391.pdf

    I didn’t find a category in the directory a listing for a boat building concern, or mshipwrights, but that doesn’t mean that Lawrence and his family had not lived in the Millbanks/Rosbercon/Wexford area in 1846, a year after the beginning of the Great Famine.

    GRIFFITHS VALUATION

    Griffiths Valuation for Millbanks, Rosbercon, was completed by the year 1850. Griffiths Valuation can be searched for free at the Ask About Ireland website. I also went to the subscription Ancestry.com website for Griffiths Valuation pages.

    In locating the Griffiths Valuation entry for Lawrence Power in Millbanks, Rosbercon, I found that he is not leasing any appreciable amount of acreage, except for a “yard.” This is an indication that he was not a farmer. The Map Reference Number for Lawrence is 14, followed by what is known as a “Local Number,” which in effect would be akin to a street number. Griffiths Valuation shows the Local Number for Lawrence is 11, thus 14/11. His nearest neighbor is Thomas Walsh, at Map Reference 14, Local Number 10, 14/10. Nearby Lawrence Power is the Dispensary at 14/12 and the Fever Hospital at 14/13.

    {NOTE: In rural, Irish farm communities, Griffiths Valuation map reference numbers for individual farmers, followed by letter combinations (1 a,b,c; 2 c, d, etc), do not necessarily mean farmers are neighbors, or are even residing close to one another in the same townland}

    For quick access to the Millbanks, Rosbercon Griffiths Valuation page where Lawrence Power is recorded, go to: https://is.gd/j83cRe

    Map Reference 14, is the number in an Ordnance Survey Map of Millbank, Rosbercon. This map accompanied Griffiths Valuation at the Ask About Ireland website.

    I located Map Reference 14 on the Griffiths Ordnance Survey Map attached to this reply. The number 14 is in the center of the map, just to the left of the label for Rosbercon. Underneath Rosbercon, you’ll see the locations for the Ida Dispensary, the Ida Hospital, and the R.C. Chapel.

    As noted above, the Dispensary at 14/12, the Fever Hospital at 14/13, and the R. Catholic Chapel, 14/7, are all shown on the Griffiths Valuation page where Lawrence Power is recorded.

    Just under the number 14 on the map you’ll see what appears to be an oblong structure. I believe Lawrence and his family would have been living here, diagonally across the street from the dispensary, hospital, and church.

    Toward the lower right corner of the map you’ll see a bridge crossing the River Barrow into New Ross, Wexford, which means that if Lawrence had worked building boasts, he would not have been far from his residence in Millbank.

    What I did next was locate Millbank, Rosbercon on a Google Map, to see if I could find the location, or approximate location of Lawrence Power’s dwelling, using the Catholic Church, as a point of reference. This church is called The Church of the Assumption. See the Google Map at: https://is.gd/VaxWvT

    On the map you’ll see that the New Ross Boat Club on the River Barrow is a quarter of a mile from the Church of the Assumption. Lawrence lived just up the road, west of the church, which shows he would not have far to go to access the river.

    If you compare the Google Map with the Griffiths Valuation Ordnance Survey Map, you’ll see the bridge is no longer in the same location. The Google Map shows the bridge is just downriver from the New Ross Boat Club.

    Again, comparing the two maps, you’ll see that both delineate the boundary between County Kilkenny and County Wexford. On the Griffiths Map this boundary is indicated by dashes----running above and to the left of Map Reference 14. On the Google Map the boundary is indicated by dots….

    Technically, it appears that Lawrence may have actually been living in County Wexford.

    The road where the church is located today is called the Thomastown Road (R704). For a Google Street View of the Church of the Assumption on the Thomastown (R704) Road, go to: https://is.gd/Ear1Ji

    For Google Street Views of the location where Lawrence Power may have lived in Millbanks, Rosbercon, just up the hill from the church, see: https://is.gd/FqyV1m and https://is.gd/vdQ8r7 and https://is.gd/co4Wxe

    Lawrence and his family would have lived what is today the Thomastown Road.

    For a Google Satellite image of the Thomaston Road and the Church of the Assumption, see: https://is.gd/iU8Ly2

    I’ve also attached to this reply a wider image of the Griffiths Valuation map showing the locations of Millbanks, Rosbercon, and New Ross across the River Barrow.

    I hope you like maps, as I found the Ida Dispensary, the Ida Hospital, and the R.C. Chapel in Rosbercon, on another Ordnance Survey Map. This map, cartographically speaking, is identical to the Griffiths Valuation Map, with the exception that it is in color and is not crowded with map reference numbers to distract you. The map, from the free GeoHive website, is attached to this reply. The map is from the 1837 to 1842 time period, and comes from the GeoHive website.

    Indications are that Lawrence Power was not a farmer. It is possible that he owned, or worked for a boat building business as a carpenter near the River Barrow. The Barrow flows south into County Waterford, and also connects with the River Suir.

    The Barrow is one of the “Three Sisters” of rivers in Ireland. The Three Sisters are comprised of the River Barrow, the River Suir, and the River Nore. Only the River Shannon in Ireland, is longer than the Barrow. For more information go to the Wikipedia article at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Barrow

    CATHOLIC CHURCH RECORDS

    Your information shows that Lawrence Power and his wife Margaret had two children, Mary, born in 1840, and john, born in 1842.

    Baptism transcriptions and copies of original records I found however, show that Lawrence and Margaret had five children. These children were baptized in the Tullagher Catholic Parish, County Kilkenny. This parish was also known as Rosbercon, as well as “Tullaher and Rosbercon.”

    The names and dates of the five Lawrence baptisms follow so that you can see them all in chronological order:

    Mary Power, 1840
    John Power, 1842
    Ellen Power, 1844
    Michael Power, 1848
    Mary Power, 1851
    ____

    Lawrence and Margaret Power had two children named Mary, which means the older child named Mary had died sometime between her birth in 1840 and the birth of her sister Mary in 1851.

    The baptism transcriptions were located at the Find My Past (FMP) website. FMP is traditionally a subscription-based website, but does offer some free collections. One of these free collections is for Catholic parish baptisms, marriages, and available death/burial records. The transcriptions cover many Catholic parishes in all 32 counties of Ireland. Most of the registers are from the 19th century, but some go back to the 18th and even 17th centuries. There are also some registers that extend into the 20th century.

    Attached to each baptism, marriage, and death transcription is a link that will take you to a copy of the original record in the parish register held by the National Library of Ireland in Kildare Street, Dublin. Accessing the parish registers at the National Library of Ireland are also free.

    THE BAPTISM OF MARY POWER

    The FMP transcription for the first-born Mary Power, shows that she was baptized in the Tullaher Catholic Parish on 20 October 1840. Her father is Lawrence and her mother is Margaret Nowlan.

    Do your records show that Margaret’s maiden name was Nowlan? You hadn’t mentioned her maiden name in your message to Ireland Reaching Out.

    To view the FMP transcription for Mary Nowlan, go to: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4619786

    For a copy of the original baptism in the Tullaher register, go to: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000631908#page/6/mode/1up

    You’ll see two facing pages of the register, which you can enlarge by means of round icons in the upper center/ right of the screen. The icons are white with green backgrounds. You can also access the full-screen function by clicking on the last icon on the right with the two arrows pointing northeast and southwest.

    Mary’s baptism is on the right-hand register page. In the left margin of the right-hand page, you’ll see numbers, which are the days of the month in October. Scroll down the page until you come to the number 20. The baptism states:

    20th Mary- Lawrence Power Margaret Nowlan parents
    Michael Walsh Anne Lalor sponsors Rosbercon

    Sponsors is another term for godparents in Irish baptism records.

    Mary’s baptism record shows that Lawrence and Margaret had been in Rosbercon as early as 1840, six years before the 1846 publication of Slater's Commercial Directory of Ireland, and 10 years before the 1850 publication date of Griffiths Valuation for Millbanks and Rosbercon.

    If you go back the Griffiths Valuation, Page 77, you’ll see a James Lalor at Map Reference 14/3, and a Thomas Walsh at Map Reference 14/10. They may have been related to Mary’s godparents.

    On Griffiths Valuation Page 76 for Millbanks, there is a William Nowlan at Map Reference 4 Ca. William may have been related to Mary. Down the page at Map Reference 13 a, is a John Walsh, who may have been related to Mary’s godfather Michael. See: https://is.gd/VnK4aJ

    THE BAPTISM OF JOHN POWER

    The FMP transcription shows that John Power was baptized on 23 May 1842. In this case the first name of his father is spelled Laurence, rather than Lawrence:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6605948

    I couldn’t locate John’s baptism for the 23rd of May in a copy of the original Tullagher baptism register. That’s because the FMP transcriber was off by two days on his day of birth. John was actually baptized on 25 May. His baptism is on the right-hand register page, 3rd entry down from the top at:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000631908#page/13/mode/1up

    His godparents are Patrick Grangil and Mary Byrne. The residence of John and his parents at the time of the baptism was Rosbercon.

    THE BAPTISM OF ELLEN POWER

    Ellen was baptized on 13 November 1844 according to the FMP transcription:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4619883

    A copy of Ellen’s original baptism record is on the right-hand register page at:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000631908#page/21/mode/1up

    Scroll down the page until you come to the November 3rd 1844 subheading. Ellen’s baptism is the 4th entry below the subheading. Her godparents are Thomas Walsh and Catherine Brassil. The residence of the Power family is Rosbercon

    THE BAPTISM OF MICHAEL POWER

    The FMP transcription for Michael shows he was baptized on 1 February 1848. His mother’s maiden name is transcribed as “Nolan,” rather than Nowlan:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6742252

    A copy of Michael’s original baptism record is the 2nd entry down from the top of the right-hand baptism register page at:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000631908#page/32/mode/1up

    Michael’s godfather is Michael Brassil. The first name of his godmother is Anne. I couldn’t make out Anne’s last name. The residence of the Power family is Rosbercon.

    THE BAPTISM OF MARY POWER

    The FMP transcription shows Mary was baptized on 25 March 1851.
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5008014

    A copy of Mary’s original baptism record is the last entry on the right-hand page:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000631908#page/39/mode/1up

    Her godparents are William Bergin and Mary Darcy. The residence of the Power family is very dark at the edge of the page. But it appears it may be Rosbercon after you enlarge the image to its highest magnification.

    The Church of the Assumption would not be the structure where the Power children were baptized. According to the Rosbercon Catholic Church Parish website, the current structure was opened in 1954. But there were churches on this site before the Church of the Assumption. One of the churches located on the site before the Church of the Assumption, dates from 1800, and could be the church where the Power children were baptized. This would also be the R.C. Chapel on the Griffiths Valuation Map, and the Ordnance Survey Map in color.

    For more information go to the Rosbercon Parish Church website at: https://rosberconparish.ie/our-parish/

    There will not be civil registration birth records for the Power children. Civil registration began in Ireland in 1845. At this time however, the government only recorded Protestant marriages, as well as civil marriages. Births, marriages and death for all religious denominations commenced in Ireland in 1864, much too late to have recorded the births of the Power children.

    According to the National Library of Ireland, the Tullagher/Rosbercon Catholic baptism begin in 1817, and are available until 1886, though there may be gaps in the registers.

    The National Library of Ireland also shows that Tullagher Catholic marriages can be accessed from 1835 to 1877. For information about the dates of Tullagher/Rosbercon baptisms and marriages, and to see a map of the Tullagher and New Ross Catholic Parishes, go to the National Library of Ireland link at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1001

    I suspect that Lawrence Power and Margaret Nowlan would have been married between 1835 and the baptism of their daughter Mary in October of 1840. I looked for their marriage transcription at the FMP website, but didn’t find it in the Tullagher/Rosbercon marriage registers. I expanded the search to other Kilkenny Catholic parishes, but again, without result.

    I then looked for their marriage in County Wexford, across the River Barrow. I found what may be their marriage transcription at the FMP website.

    A “Laurentius” Power and a Margarita “Howlan,” were married on 17 November 1839 in the Suttons Catholic Parish, County Wexford. The alternative name for this parish is Ballykelly and Horeswood. See: https://is.gd/r3MdyH

    The National Library of Ireland link shows that the Suttons Catholic Parish is bordered on the north by the Catholic parishes of New Ross and Tullagher, aka Rosbercon, as well as New Ross: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0575

    A copy of the original marriage record is on the left-hand register page, just to the right of the number 17. Go to the following link to access the marriage entry:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634012#page/145/mode/1up

    Margarita’s maiden name does look like Howlan. One of the witnesses to the marriage is Patrick. His last name looks like it could be either Howlan or Nowlan. The other witness to the marriage could be Honora Murphy.

    Marriages traditionally took place in the bride’s parish, and so Margaret may have grown up in the area of the Suttons Catholic Parish in County Wexford.

    I can’t be sure if Margaret’s last name in the marriage record is Howlan or Nowlan, and so I can’t be one-hundred percent positive this marriage is for your 3rd great grandparents, though I suspect it is because of the close proximity of the Suttons Catholic Parish, with New Ross, Rosbercon, and Millbanks.

    Information from a website compiled by Shane Wilson shows there are two Catholic churches in the Suttons parish. One is in Ballykelly, and one is in Horeswood. See Shane Wilson’s, “Catholic Parishes and Civil Parish Links - c1837,” at: https://is.gd/3uvyMV

    Shane Wilson provides links for the locations of the Ballykelly and Horeswood on Google Maps and on Ordnance Survey Maps from the GeoHive website. The Ordnance Survey Maps are from different tome periods, the earliest being the 1837 to 1842 time period, and the latest from the 1888 to 1913 time period.

    The closest of the two churches is the Church of St. Brigid and St. James in Ballykelly, Wexford. The Google Map shows the church is 4.6 miles south of New Ross. See the map at: https://is.gd/aRR1PX

    For a Google Street View of the church, go to: https://is.gd/E4UPB3

    Next, the R.C. Chapel in Ballykelly on the Ordnance Survey Map reference from Shane Wilson’s website, is attached to this reply.

    A Google Map shows the St. James Church in Horeswood is 8.3 miles south of New Ross: https://is.gd/gfOU6i

    For a Google Street View of St. James Church go to: https://is.gd/nFMEzz

    For the Ordnance Survey Map of the R.C. Chapel in Horeswood, see the attachment.

    Laurence Power and Margaret Howlan/Nowlan? Would have been married in either the St. Bidgid and St. James R.C. Chapel in Ballykelly, or the St. James R.C. Chapel in Horeswood. Information from the Suttons Parfish registers do not tell you which chapel baptisms or marriages took place in.

    U.S. RECORDS

    You may already have some of these:

    I found what I believe to be 40 year old Lawrence, his 40 year old wife Margaret, and their two children, 20 year old Mary, and 18 year old John in the U.S. Census for the 4th Ward of Chicago, Illinois. The census comes from the subscription Ancestry.com website. The Assistant Marshal (census taker), Geo, D. Kellogg, stopped by the Power residence on 16 June 1860.

    In the census Lawrence’s first name is indicated only by the initial L. Margaret’s name is abbreviated as Margt, and John’s name as Jno. All four in the household were born in Ireland and all four are shown not to be able to read or write.

    Lawrence’s occupation is carpenter. John’s occupation is Laborer. The Power family begins on Line 22 of the census, which you can view at: https://is.gd/4KX8wD

    Missing in the 1860 census are Lawrence and Margaret’s children Ellen, born 1844, and Michael, born 1848. Ellen would have been 16 in 1860 and Michael 14. They may have died in Ireland, or in the U.S., after they and their family arrived. The other possibility is, they remained in Ireland and did not emigrate with their parents.

    CHICAGO CITY DIRECTORIES

    The first directory listing I found at Ancestry.com for Lawrence Power, was in Halpin’s & Bailey’s Directory of Chicago for 1861. Lawrence is shown to be a carpenter living at a house at 128 Quincy Street. See the directory listing at: https://is.gd/kQejyQ

    The Halpin & Bailey’s Directory of Chicago for 1862 also shows that Lawrence Power is a laborer whose house is at 128 Quincy: https://is.gd/GbRbPV

    John C. W. Bailey’s Directory of Chicago for 1864 shows that Lawrence Power is a ship’s carpenter whose house is at the corner of Jackson and Franklin Streets: https://is.gd/RviKjQ

    The Chicago, Illinois City Directory for 1865 shows that Lawrence Power is a ship carpenter whose residence is West Taylor, between Desplaines and Halstead Streets: https://is.gd/48hBhk

    In the Chicago, Illinois City Directory for 1867, Lawrence Power’s residence is 229 West Taylor Street. His occupation is carpenter: https://is.gd/foUTHb

    The Chicago, Illinois City Directory for 1869 shows that Lawrence Power is a shipcarpenter whose residence is 229 West Taylor Street: https://is.gd/UwR5lV

    THE 1870 CENSUS

    Moving ahead to the 1870 census I found that 50 year old Lawrence Power and his family were living in the 9th Ward of Chicago. The 1870 census however, shows that his wife is 50 year old “Mary” Power. Mary could have been Margaret’s middle name. I know Margaret was alive in 1870 as I located a Find A Grave entry for her, showing she died in 1872, as you’ll see a little later.

    The 1870 census shows that Lawrence’s occupation is “Ship Carpenter.” The census also shows that Lawrence had a real estate value of $2,000, and a personal estate valued at $1,000. The census further shows that he was a male citizen of the U.S. He and Mary were born in Ireland. Mary’s occupation is “Keeps House.”

    The household enumerated after Lawrence and Mary is for 32 year old John Power and his family. John would be Lawrence’s son. John’s occupations is also “Ship Carpenter.” He was born in Ireland. His wife, 28 year old Mary, was born in Illinois. Her occupation is “Keeps House.” John and Mary have two children, 3 year old Mary and 2 year old Therese. Both children were born in Illinois.

    The household for Lawrence and Mary Power begins on Line 9 of the census. The household for John and Mary Power starts on Line 11. You can access the census at: https://is.gd/vOnjdT

    The Great Chicago Fire took place from October 8 to October 10, 1871. Margaret Power died four months later on 6 February 1872, according to the Find A Grave entry at: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188705601/margaret-power

    She is buried in Calvary Cemetery in Evanston, Cook County, Illinois.

    Find A Grave shows that Lawrence Power died on 7 September 1875. He too is buried in Calvary Cemetery, Evanston, Illinois:
    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188705600/lawrence-power

    Also buried in the Calvary Cemetery are Lawrence and Margaret’s son John, his wife Mary Ann Canfield Power, and their seven children:
    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188705602/john-power

    Lawrence and Margaret’s daughter, Mary Power Clahan, her husband Lawrence J. Clahan, and their seven children are also buried in the cemetery:
    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188705610/john-clahan

    In going through the records in this reply several times, it does appear that the Power family in the Irish records and the Power family in the U.S. records are one and the same family. What do you think MB?

    With Kind Regards,

    Dave Boylan

    ATTACHMENTS

    Griffiths Valuation Map Reference 14
    Griffiths Valuation Map of Millbanks, Rosbercon and New Ross
    Ordnance Survey Map of Rosbercon In Color
    Ballykelly Ordnance Survey Map
    Horeswood Ordnance Survey Map

    SOURCES

    Slater's Commercial Directory of Ireland 1846
    John Grenham.com
    Griffiths Valuation
    Ancestry.com
    Ask About Ireland: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
    Griffiths Valuation Ordnance Survey Map
    Google Maps
    Google Street Views
    Google Satellite View
    GeoHive Ordnance Survey Maps
    Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Barrow
    Find My Past
    National Library of Ireland
    Rosbercon Catholic Parish website: https://rosberconparish.ie/our-parish/
    Shane Wilson's “Catholic Parishes and Civil Parish Links - c1837:” https://is.gd/3uvyMV
    1860 U.S. Federal Census
    Chicago City Directories
    1870 U.S. Federal Census
    Find A Grave

    davepat

    Thursday 29th July 2021, 05:33PM

    Attached Files

  • Dave:

    Once again, great work on the Laurence Power query.

    Roger

    Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Thursday 29th July 2021, 05:36PM
  • Thank you Roger.

    Dave

    davepat

    Thursday 29th July 2021, 08:48PM
  • Thank you Dave for a rapid, spectacular, incredible job! I have about a million comments but will try to restrict them here to keep things clear. First - the Lawrence Power family you found in Chicago is indeed mine. I had gathered as many documents from Chicago records as I could, and had the Chicago census, directory, and grave info that you found (so quickly!) - I actually posted their graves on findagrave, which were originally in family records. But, the more info I acquire, the more confusing everything gets. As I'm sure you know, dates on documents, particularly for the Irish, seem almost arbitrary, making it difficult to nail anyone down. With regard to the Power family, below I list some of the main issues, starting with the most problematic, some of which is compounded by the new information you provided.

    I had found the 3 Power children in Rosbercon, including Mary (1840), John (1842) and Ellen (1844), with mother=Margaret Nowlan (as well as their marriage), but not Michael (1848) or the later Mary (1851). At first - the later Mary seemed to disconfirm the Rosbercon family, since, as you also note, in the 1860 Chicago census Mary is 20 (should be 9). Then - in later census's, Mary is always a few years older than brother John, usually providing 1838 as her birthdate. That would SEEM to be the nail in the coffin for the Rosbercon family, EXCEPT for the death info I have for her. Her married name is CLAHAN. Her obit (Chicago newspaper) says she died Feb 17, 1891 at 53 years old (23 Waller St, which is correct address for them), which would again place her birth at 1838. But I had also found a Chicago death for a Mary CLAHAN on Feb 1 1891 (not Feb 17?) with age = 40 (born 1851!). I never knew whether this was for the same Mary, but Clahan is not a common name. After reading your info, I went to check the Chicago Catholic Cemetery records (on familysearch) to see if I could get more info (since I had cemetery records from family records - I guess I never checked before!). Anyway, the Calvary listing has Mary CLAHAN, died Feb 17 1891 (matching obit, not Chicago records which must have typo), at the correct address, and and states age as 40! So - I guess it IS possible Mary was b. 1851 but always said she was 13 years older? Usually Irish women like to be a lot younger! Finally though - hard to understand how she could be 20 in 1860 when she was 9, why is she ALWAYS older than brother John (b. 1842), and why her obit say she's 53 (and cemetery/death records 40?).

    2. A second key piece of info regards when my Lawrence Power family emigrated - if before 1850 (and thanks for info on date of completion of Rosbercon Griffiths!) it would also disconfirm the Rosbercon family. In terms of documentation, very little info is available. They first appear in the 1860 Chicago census (as you found), and the Chicago directories, as you also note, seem to start listing Lawrence around 1860 as well. Only one (John) lived until the 1900 census when year of arrival was asked. 1900 census says he came in 1843; 1910 census says he came in 1857.

    Information handed down through the family says Lawrence emigrated in 1847, and moved to Chicago about 1852, spending the previous 5 years in Boston, MA. I can not find them in the 1850 Massachusetts census, however, and they don't seem to be in Chicago directories in the 1850s either. I did find a Power family in the 1851 Canada census (Quebec) and there was some family lore that they might have spent some time in Canada, but the head of the family is "Mr Power" (not Lawrence, 44), with wife Margaret (41), and children Mary (12) and John (10_. So - that is not certain at all. They are from Waterford, and he is a carpenter, however. Also - whether Lawrence was b. 1800 or 1820 is also unknown.

    I know the family info on emigration date (1847) would seem to rule out the Rosbercon family, but I am not completely confident of these dates as other dates are incorrect from this source as well.

    More minor points
    3. Although both of the Power children John and Mary named a daughter Ellen (which added to evidence they might be Rosbercon family) the name Michael is not used at all in the Chicago Power family, in which the same names tend to be used over and over. Which doesn't say a lot, but when I saw you listing a son Michael born to this family in Rosbercon - it gave me pause.

    4. I love maps and had looked at some but not all of those you sent, and the extra information about how to determine who lived where and additional views was great. I still have to look at them in more detail. As noted above, I had found a Power famly in 1851 Quebec and I've attached a map I previously made with Lawrence Power families in Rosbercon, Quebec (even though this is likely not them!) and Chicago just because I love the symmetry.

    Thank you again so much for all the information, citations, and references. I still don't think there is solid disconfirming or confirming evidence that the Lawrence Power Rosbercon family is the Chicago Power family? I guess the two most damning pieces are the emigration date from family lore (1847), and the puzzle of how Mary could always say she is 13 years older than she is (and yet - be correct on one, but not another, death document).

    I thought *maybe* that the Mary on the 1851 baptism could be Marg (sometimes they abbreviate, and Margaret is her mother's name) - but those pages don't use abbreviations and even though the "y" is a little more closed than for other Mary's on the page - it still seems as if is definitely Mary.....

    All your work is very much appreciated!!!!!!! best, Margaret

    MBradley

    Friday 30th July 2021, 12:01PM

    Attached Files

  • Oh no! I meant to check one more thing. Mary Power Clahan had her first son in 1861!! She could not have been 10!! So maybe that is the single disconfirming piece of evidence??? thanks again, Margaret

    MBradley

    Friday 30th July 2021, 12:07PM
  • Hello Margaret,

    Thank you for your very comprehensive reply. You’ve really accomplished a great deal of research into your Power family, and I would have to agree with you that after reading your latest communication, it appears less likely that Lawrence and Margaret were from the Millbanks and Rosbercon areas of County Kilkenny and County Wexford, especially since their daughter Mary Clahan had her first child in 1861. Lawrence and Margaret Nowlan Power’s first daughter named Mary was born in 1840. She died and the second daughter Mary was born in 1851, which does preclude the Power family in Chicago from being the same family that had lived in Millbanks, Rosbercon.

    Without knowing the names of Lawrence and Margaret’s parents, especially the maiden names of their mothers, it will be next to impossible to find out where in Ireland they came from. Then too, locating their individual baptisms would depend on whether or not baptism registers in their respective Catholic parishes are available for the years they were born and baptized.

    I have this same problem I’ve been working on for many years. I know approximately the year of birth for my great grandfather, his father’s first name, and county of birth. I even have his mother’s first name but not her maiden name. I have been unable to find his baptism record in the late 1820s or early to mid 1830s.

    Like your genealogy, the ages of my some of my ancestors from Kerry and Limerick are all over the place when you compare census records and ages of the parents recorded in successive birth records of their children. Even their gravestones have the wrong years of birth. The gravestones have them a lot younger than they actually were.

    Are there any records in Ireland you’d like me to look for. I don’t mind at all. I’ll need the name, or names, approximate years of birth, and the probable county or counties of birth, and names of the parents, if you have this information.

    Or if you have any further ideas of where to look for the baptisms of Lawrence Power and Margaret, please let me know and I’ll start looking for them right away.

    Thank you for writing Margaret. Many people do not respond at all.

    Dave

    davepat

    Saturday 31st July 2021, 05:32PM
  • Hi Dave - Yes, I think it seems more unlikely that the Rosbercon family is mine. I really wish that second Mary hadn't been born, haha. The only thing I can think at this point is to followup the Lawrence Power Rosbercon family to see if there is any evidence they stayed. But - of course they could have also emigrated somewhere as well. I think I will just have to live with this brick wall. What I have tried to do more generally is to locate the home village/county/country of at least my 2nd great-grandparents. Fortunately, I have been able to identify all of them (including maiden names of wives), and, of the 8 Irish families at that level, I know where they all came from except for Lawrence Power and Francis Bradley (but might be Brady). So - I guess that is probably par for the course.

    One thing you might be able to tell me is what information is available if one orders the Ireland GRO death certificates? The Ancestry index of these deaths includes date of birth/death and county, but if the actual death certificate tells me more - I should order a bunch of them. I think I can do this online? I have ordered a lot of GRO's from England (other ancestors from here), but never from Ireland for some reason???  

    I often wish I knew someone in Ireland for questions I have just about where a town might be, or other random Ireland questions -  so if you are actually in Ireland - I will certainly be happy to ask you in the future.

    Thanks again for all your time and effort and the fabulous genealogy you put together so rapidly. If you are not doing this for employment - I think you should consider it!  best, Margaret

    MBradley

    Sunday 1st August 2021, 04:20PM
  • Oh - also. The loss of Irish census data makes me unhappy almost every day. What a disaster. 

    MBradley

    Sunday 1st August 2021, 04:26PM
  • Hello Margaret,

    Thank you for writing. Please do not order any death records yet, as copies of original death records may be available online for free, depending on the date of the death.

    The Irish government implemented civil registration of births, marriages, and deaths for all religious denominations beginning in 1864. The exception was, the government began to record Protestant and civil marriages in 1845. Catholic marriages were not recorded at this time.

    To date, the free irishgenealogy.ie website has placed many copies of original birth, marriage, and death records online. For example, copies of original births are available from 1864 to 1920. Copies of original marriages are available for 1845 for Protestant and civil marriages, and from 1864 to 1945 for all religious denominations.

    Digitized copies of original death records from irishgenealogy.ie however, are available from 1871 to 1970. Irishgenealogy.ie plans to digitize and make available online, death records from 1864 to 1870 in the future.

    Only death indexes are available from irishgenealogy.ie from 1864 to 1870, but these give very little information that you can use.

    In the case of deaths from 1864 to 1870, you would have to order the death records from the General Register Office (GRO)/Department of Social Protection in Ireland. The fee for a photocopy of a birth, marriage, and death record is 5 Euros. Photocopies are not good for legal purposes, such as applying to become an Irish citizen or for obtaining a passport.

    The application form to email to the GRO for births, marriages, and deaths can be accessed at:
    https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/images/content/www.genealogy.ie_form.pdf

    Aside from the person’s name, a full death record will provide you with the date and place of death; the gender of the person; their marital status (Single, Married, Widow, Widower); their age; their occupation; the cause of death; the person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the district registrar; and the date the death was recorded by the registrar, along with the registrar’s name.

    Death records will not include information about who a person's parents were, where they were born, or where they are buried.

    Irish death certs include much the same information as the death records you order from the GRO in Southport, England.

    But again Margaret, don’t order any death records from 1871 forward as I’ll look for the death record for you if you can provide the name of the person, date of death, place of death, and their age or approximate age, if you know it.

    Also, don’t hesitate to ask any questions you have about where a place may be In Ireland. I can look for it using a number of different websites that are helpful, though I am not always successful in locating towns.

    You are correct Margaret, the loss of most the 19th century Irish census returns has been a detriment to Irish genealogical research.

    I don’t live in Ireland but in the U.S. I’ve been to Ireland many times over the years visiting relatives and friends, as my ancestors come from Cavan, Kerry, Limerick, and Roscommon, representing three of the four Irish provinces--Ulster, Leinster, and Munster.

    Many thanks again for writing Margaret, and for your kind words.

    Dave

    davepat

    Monday 2nd August 2021, 11:51AM
  • Thanks again!

    MBradley

    Wednesday 4th August 2021, 11:47AM
  • You're welcome Margaret.

    Dave

    davepat

    Tuesday 10th August 2021, 10:15PM