Looking for any and all info for ORR'S in Armagh/Mullabrack 1800's

If the family church was Mullabrack Church of Ireland, then the bad news is that their baptism records for the years 1813-1875 are lost (burned in the 1922 fire), as are marriages 1813 – 1845. That will make it very difficult to trace William’s siblings.

The only William Orr in Mullabrack in the 1834 tithes was in Derrycuhan, so presumably the family moved to Ballygroobany after that year:

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/armagh/tithe-applotments/mullaghbrack-parish.php#.W2lVihR9eg0

I looked in Griffiths Valuation for 1864 and there’s just one Orr property in Ballygroobany. It was plot 4ca, and was held by Mary Orr. Often when a property is in a woman’s name, she’s a widow. So that could be William’s mother.  The property was a house only, ie no farm. So it looks as though William had given up the farm by that date.

Regarding details of the family’s departure from Ireland, it’s unlikely they sailed directly from Ireland to New Zealand. There weren’t many vessels that made that journey. They are most likely to have crossed to England and left from there. Perhaps from Liverpool, Plymouth, Southampton or London. There are no passenger lists for journeys from Ireland to England, such as Belfast to Liverpool. That was just a short domestic journey and no records were ever kept for these routes. I would focus on passengers lists from English ports around 1863/64.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my query, much appreciated. The 1810 marriage is very scant with no detail to speak of, however I guess I was lucky to find that. I cant even get William's (born 1816) birth details. Yes I do have a copy of the Mary you speak of. Her son (william married to Mary Toal) had by this time left Ireland to go first to Australia (or straight to NZ) and became a military settler in the maori wars. So if I am not being greedy can I ask: Am I right in thinking Mary didnt own the house but rented from the chaps name that is also there. Also how easy would it be to try and find a death for Mary's husband say from the time of her son william marrying mary toal, as if he was dead by then wouldnt it state on williams marriage cert that he was deceased. I know I may be fantasising lol but if I could find a death for him it might tell me who his parents were yes??. Same for Mary after 1864 griffiths valuation. Where would the best place be to look for these deaths or should I put a new message up. I do know that when William left to come over here that he came alone at first as I have a copy of the letter he wrote to NZ authorities asking for help in bringing out his wife and children, which of course was granted.Once again thank you lots for your time.   Popsit

Popsit,

The information on the 1810 marriage record sounds normal for the time. All that was required were the couples names, the date and their 2 witnesses. It was 1845 before additional information became standard.

You are correct that Mary’s house was rented. She was renting from the farmer David Hill (who in turn was renting from the D’Huart estate). She had a farm labourer’s cottage on the Hill farm. Typically single story, 2 rooms, thatched roof. She’d have had a few perches of land to grow vegetables on. Her rent may have been paid in cash or by an agreed number of days work on the farm each year (which the farmer may not have insisted upon, if she was elderly). I assume that when William left for Australia or New Zealand, he would have ensured that his mother was not going to be destitute.  You say he was a farmer in Ballygroobany. So he will have had a lease to sell, perhaps to raise the fare to Australia. Perhaps he sold his lease to David Hill, and a condition was that his mother could stay there. Or perhaps William had a sister who married David Hill and so they were family, and could look after Mary. Something like that? Just speculation, but it’s the sort of thing that might have happened.

Regarding the 1853 marriage certificate, it wouldn’t necessarily say whether William Orr senior was alive or dead. In some places eg Scotland, they were meticulous in recording that information, but in Ireland they rarely recorded it.  So it just contains his name and occupation, regardless of whether he was alive or dead.

Statutory death registration only started in Ireland in 1864, so assuming I am correct in saying that William Orr senior was dead before that you won’t find a death certificate. In any event Irish death certificates don’t normally record the deceased’s parents names. (They do occasionally for a child but that’s it). The Church of Ireland does keep burial records, but again they don’t contain parents’ names. And in this case the relevant records for Mullabrack for 1813 to 1874 were lost in the 1922 fire (along with the baptisms).

Your best hope is finding the death certificate for Mary Orr. I looked at the Valuation Revision records (on the PRONI website) and I can see that Mary had left that house in Ballygroobany by 1869 as her name is deleted and the property marked as vacant then. So perhaps she had died or perhaps moved away. I looked at the death records 1864 – 1885, registered in Armagh (which is where a death in Ballygroobany would be registered). There’s only 2 of women of the right age. The first died 14.11.1871 aged 82. You might want to look at that death certificate to see if it fits. You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

The second died 14.8.1880 aged 82 at Tullynmallogue. Her death certificate is viewable on-line free on the irishgenealogy site. She was a farmer’s widow. However that’s some distance away from Ballygroobany, and there was a John Orr farming there at the time of Griffiths. She was probably married to him. So I think it’s a different family.

Orr is a reasonably common name in Armagh. There were 155 in the county in the 1901 census. Mostly Presbyterian or Church of Ireland. So they are probably mainly descended from Scots who settled there in the 1600s as part of the Plantation.

Hi there, Back again, so I have opened an account and am going to buy credits, however I have tried all day to get into the above site you gave me but it keeps saying the site is unavailable. I guess it will become availble soon so will keep trying. I had a look at the family search site for a Mary Orr (the second one) for a probate and wouldnt you know she had one, however it wasnt my Mary as you rightly pointed out as John was her husband so that cancels her out definitly. I tried looking for one for the other Mary you found but it appears she didnt have a probate, at least nothing was there for the years she had died in. Maybe she didnt have anything to leave anyone.As son as I get into the site I will let you know the outcome, my fingers are crossed in the hope she is my one. I would like to say at this time that I am very grateful for your help and much appreciative.You have given me a small thread to run with and given me renewed hope lol thank you.  POPSIT.

Popsit,

Regarding wills, as you say she may not have had anything to leave. In addition, a will only appears on the PRONI wills site if probate was required. With many small estates where the assets are all moveable (eg some cash, some furniture and a couple of cows) probate is not required, even today. So the executors can wind up the estate without having to apply for probate. So the will never makes it to PRONI.

(I helped wind up an estate in England recently where all the assets were either moveable eg a TV and some furniture, or in joint names. There was a will but no probate was required and so that will won’t make it to the English wills repository. Typically, the executor keeps the will with any other paperwork for a few years and then probably throws it away).

I have a marriage record for an Ann ORR whose father was a William ORR, carpenter:

Marriage Registration, Armagh District, 1862, #61; Marriage solemnized at St. Marks Church, Armagh City, County Armagh; May 26, 1863, James Parks, full age, bachelor, farmer, residence: Kilbracks, Kilclooney Parish; father: James Parks, farmer; Anne Orr, full age, spinster; residence: Armagh [City]; father: William Orr, carpenter.

Signed: James Parks, Anne Orr (her mark)

Witnesses: William James, William Orr

In Griffiths Valuation James Parkes resided in Kilbracks Townland, Kilclooney Parish, County Armagh, renting house, offices and land from Rev. Leonard H. Robinson (map reference 15 A, B); 0/3/10, 0/2/20 acres, total tax 10 pounds.

I hope this helps.