Looking for McCoy family from 1838, Pomeroy

As far as church records for Pomeroy are concerned, the early Church of Ireland records were lost in the 1922 fire in Dublin.  Your family were apparently Presbyterian. In the case of Pomeroy Presbyterian church the issue was not that records were lost but simply that they didn’t keep any before 1841, which sadly makes it hard to research them.

The tithe applotment records for Pomeroy indicate there was a John McKee farming in Cavanakeeran in 1829. He was the only McKee (or variant spellings) farming in the parish at that time. However the tithes were only a list of folk with land. Labourers and others without land would not be listed. But it might be someone related to your family. There are also 2 Gaddis families (more common spelling would be Geddes or Geddis).

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/tyrone/tithe-applotment-books/parish-of-pomeroy.php

There was a William McKee in Griffiths Valuation 1859 for Cavanakeeran who had some land there (plots 52 & 53). No house on that land, so he lived somewhere else. But perhaps a relation of your family? He seems to be the only McKee there then. Plot 52 was/is just beside Pomeroy Presbyterian church and plot 53 was across the modern Tanderagee Rd beside Pomeroy railway station.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

No McKees there in the 1901 census, nor any Gaddis/Geddes.

Research in Ireland in the early 1800s is notoriously difficult due to the general lack of records. No easy way around that I fear.

Hi Elwyn

Thank you for the reply and the help those are really great leads. I don't know how you find things so quickly.? I have looked on the records at countytyrone and other sites I can find. I see a number of McCoy or McKee from Strabane to Clogher who have similar given name patterns. It is my guess that the family came from the western isles of Scotland and spead down through  Strabane to Pomeroy. If there is no records for the time has anyone collected oral records and possibly DNA from families? Our families that came from Ireland have a strong oral tradition which has greatly helped me in geneology.I wonder if the same might be true for some of the Irish families who are left behind while others moved to Canada from the area? While it is a long way out for DNA our families in Canada and I suspect in Northern Ireland have a great deal of endogamy as part of their make up which makes finding relatives many generation out appear closer then they are. If there where families from Tyrone for example that could be matched against Canadian families it might help greatly.Thanks for your help and time.Keep well and safe.

cheers

Ron McCoy

As far as naming patterns are concerned, both Ireland and Scotland share the same tradition which many – though not all – families followed. There was a fairly narrow set of names and they did tend to get repeated endlessly, generation after generation. It doesn’t mean they are all related, perhaps merely they weren’t very imaginative, or that they were just keen to follow tradition. You can decide.

Your ancestors having a surname often found in Scotland, living in Tyrone and being Presbyterian all point to Scottish roots. Presbyterianism was established in Scotland in the 1550s and brought to Ireland in the 1600s by some 200,000 or so Scots settlers. They mainly settled in the counties of Ulster (including Tyrone). 

There weren’t many settlers from the Western Isles at that period. They and other Highlanders weren’t encouraged to come as they weren’t seen as so likely to be loyal to the Crown. They would also mainly have been Catholic then, whereas clearly yours were Presbyterian. (Presbyterianism didn’t make it to the Western isles till the 1700s, and even then a few parts remained Catholic).  Most of the Scottish settlers were from the lowlands and southern uplands (the border area with England).  They tended to set themselves apart from their Catholic neighbours in Ireland and rather looked down on them. They arrived with an equal number of women, tended to marry their own and kept themselves slightly apart from their Irish neighbours. Having said that there were some Episcoplian Scots settlers, and some Catholics, notably around Strabane. The ones round Strabane were often tenants of the Duke of Hamilton (from Hamilton in Lanarkshire), so not all Scots settlers were Presbyterian. But most were.

As far as Tyrone, Co Derry and Co Donegal are concerned, the Scots mostly arrived through the port of Derry/Londonderry as it was easy to get to. They then spread out across the surrounding countryside over a period of time. (If you are interested in the subject in more detail, Philip Robinsons book “The Plantation of Ulster” explains it well). 

It was common for Presbyterian Ministers in Ireland to organize group migration to North America. Having not long moved from Scotland they were more of a mindset to move again than the native population. They started migrating in significant numbers in 1718 but the reasons for going remained valid all through the 18th century and beyond. Background here:

https://www.ancestryireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/The_1718_Migration.pdf

MacLysaght’s “The Surnames of Ireland” says McKee is “One of the many anglicised forms of Mac Aoidh which in the form MacKee is essentially a north east Ulster name: there is usually a variant of the Scottish MacKay. In Donegal it is numerous as Kee without the prefix Mac.”  So your family could be McKays in Scotland.

MacLysaght says of McCoy: “One of the several anglicised forms of Mac Aodha (son of Hugh). Woulfe says it is almost peculiar to Co. Limerick but in fact it is mainly found in North Ulster, where it is a galloglass family".

Galloglass were Scottish mercenaries from the Western Isles brought to Ulster in the period 1200-late 1400s by various Irish chieftains. They were always squabbling amongst themselves and many hired Scots warriors to help defend their lands, or steal their neighbours. They were given land in return for their fighting skills. However the galloglass all arrived pre-Reformation and consequently were almost exclusively Catholic, so I tend to hold with your family – being Presbyterian – coming from the parts of Scotland I mentioned previously, and arriving in the 1600s, not earlier.

Family Tree DNA reportedly has more people with Ulster roots than any other company. That obviously increases the chances of finding a match. You might want to try them or, if you have already tested, you can transfer your results to them for no fee.

The North of Ireland Family History Society is running an Ulster DNA project in conjunction with FTDNA and can offer testing kits at a reduced price.  http://www.nifhs.org (Go to DNA project on the website).

You ask whether there would be a strong oral tradition in Ireland. The answer is sort of yes and no. There is considerable interest and pride in our history but as far as genealogy is concerned, the average family probably isn’t that interested and would struggle to go back more than 3 generations or so (ie to about 1900). Unless of course there's a genealogist in the family. Taking Presbyterians as an example, because that’s the relevant denomination in your family’s case, most Presbyterians would be able to tell you that they are descended from Scots who came in the 1600s but only rarely would they know much about where they came from or know the names of those early settlers. 

Certain surnames are closely associated with certain locations, and so you can sometimes get a little information from that. For example, a lot of Scots were moved from the Borders to Co Fermanagh in the period 1610-1625.  The surnames Armstrong, Hogg, Elliot, Henderson and a dozen others are found today in large numbers in Fermanagh, and also all across the Borders. (Armstrong’s the second most common name in the county after Maguire). So if you are an Armstrong in Fermanagh, you will know your ancestors almost certainly came from the Scottish Borders. Up in north east Antrim a lot of the surnames there are identical to those in Islay and the Kintyre peninsula (McKay being one). The Kintyre peninsula is 9 miles from Torr Head in Antrim. It wasn’t the biggest journey. We know the MacDonalds brought thousands of settlers across in the 1500s and 1600s, so in those situations you can say with some degree of certainty where your ancestors originated. But not every family can be so sure.

Hi Elwyn Thanks again for the great information. I will look more closely at Familytreedna. The reason I believe we came from the Western Isles is I did my Ydna and found that my family  comes from a Donald Mcgilliviray about six to eight generations ago. YDNA is not exact. I have found a number of McGillivray who I am related to but they have traced their families back to Islay Scotland. When I search the island records  I see cemetaries with many McGilliviray and MacKay burials. I asume and this is a big assumption that some one of the McCoy family took in or had a McGilliiry child. Amongst our family taking in children whether unwed or abandoned was common in our family records even up till today. I searched Irish records but found no records of McGilliviray in Ireland and the modern families I have spoken to know of no one of their families going to Ireland. I don't know if that is any help or not. It is not definitive proof just an indication. Thank you for the infomation.

Cheers

Ron McCoy

I can’t say whether a McGillivray went to Ireland but it’s perfectly possible.  Just because no-one in Islay knows of it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Many families don’t really know their ancestry in any detail, particularly for the 1800s and earlier. There was certainly lots of movement to and fro between Islay, Jura and Kintyre & Antrim. The MacDonalds (whose traditional seat was at Finlaggan) acquired lands in Antrim from the 1400s onwards and lots of their tenants moved over. Observers over the years have often commented on how the Gaelic spoken in the Glens of Antrim is identical to that spoken in South West Scotland and differs from that spoken elsewhere in Ireland. That’s the reason.

As I commented previously it’s no great distance to Kintyre and beyond, and in the days before good roads the sea was folks freeway and they moved back and forth all the time. In the 1641 Irish uprising, Scots in Antrim built fires on the tops of the coastal hills to signal to their compatriots in Scotland to come and assist. Today you can clearly see the distilleries at Laphroaig, Ardbeg & Lagavulin (helpfully painted white) on the southern coast of Islay, from the Antrim coast.

In the summer months there’s a ferry from Ballycastle to Port Ellen which takes an hour, and Campbeltown is 40 minutes. An inshore fisherman in Portnahaven on Islay told me that his grandfather used to land his fish in Ballycastle because it was easier to get to than Oban. 

I’d ask you to name the most famous Irish song you can think of. Most people will say “Danny Boy.” Fair enough. So what do we know about this tune (the Londonderry Air, as it is known today)? Well, there seems no great dispute that it was first recorded formally by Jane Ross of Limavady, in Co. Derry (1810 – 1879). She was fascinated by traditional music and collected previously unpublished Irish tunes. According to her own account, in 1851 she was in a house near the Burns & Laird shipping line office in Limavady and heard an itinerant fiddler play it. She had never heard it before.  She asked the fiddler (Blind Jimmy McCurry) to play it over again till she had it written down. It was first published in 1855[1]. Today there’s a blue plaque on the building at 51 Main St, Limavady, commemorating Jane’s initiative.

Reportedly all Jimmy McCurry could tell Jane was that it was a very old traditional tune, probably learned from his father, who was also a fiddle player. Jimmy was born around Myroe in Co Derry c1830. However his father was from Portnahaven at the southern tip of Islay in Scotland (about 25 miles away to the north) and moved to Ireland when he married a woman from Ballycastle. The Currys were a long established musical family and had once been bards to the Lords of the Isles at Finlaggan. And of course in passing, this account tells you how people routinely went back and forth between the north of Ireland and Scotland.

So it’s arguable that the tune is Scottish. But where did the lyrics come from? Well they were written in 1910 by Fred Weatherly, a solicitor from Manchester. So the most famous Irish song in the world possibly has a Scottish tune and definitely has words written by an Englishman. How Irish is that? Of course the tune might have made its way to Islay from Ireland, and there are accounts that say it’s a variation of an ancient Irish air called “Aislean an Oigfear.” But probably no-one will ever know for certain.

But for me this story demonstrates how we should probably be thinking of ethnic identity within the British Isles. There was constant movement (especially between Ireland and Scotland), and we shouldn’t be too hung up on trying to identify precisely what we are. 

As far as DNA is concerned, if you participate in the North of Ireland Family History Society’s project, the expert there is Martin McDowell (a colleague of mine) and he can answer very detailed technical questions. (I can’t).  You will find him very helpful.

[1] George Petrie (Royal Hibernian Society) – The Ancient Music of Ireland pub 1855

Hi Elwyn You are a great source of information and I will look closely a FTDNA to see the two Irish groups you mentioned. I am from the Ottawa Valley Canada and our accent is most notably like that found in the Ballymoney area of Northern Ireland or at least to my ear it is. I bought a book a few months ago on the area which has words specific to Northern Ireland and I found many words that are familiar to my youth and my parents. I realized doing that even my children did not know the meaning of these words I thought were common words which I realized I had not used in many years... You mentioned Londonderry Airs and the fiddler Jimmy McCurry. In Canada the native community learned Fiddle playing from the Scotish and Irish fur traders that came with Hudson Bay company. Twenty years ago the Canadian Film Board sent a group of Native fiddlers back to Scotland and Ireland to play. What amazed everyone was that they were playing music that was well recognized but played differently and other pieces that fiddlers had not heard for years and sometimes complely forgotton but still clearly a very ancient fiddle tune from the Scot/Irish.

Cheers

Ron

Hello Ron,

I am Robert Watt born near Pomeroy in 1941, Although I have lived in Southern England for 57 years I have a lot of contacts around Pomeroy.

Many of the brothers of our Watt families went to Canada, I have a write up about  Mr David Evans the Minister at Pomeroy Presbyterian Church from 15th August 1815 to 7th May 1837, when he went to Canada.  There are listings of McKee,  Mackie and McKay from the Western Isles of Scotland in 1611, and a Sir Patrick McKee built a Stone House.

I am on     rwdwatt@gmail.com   if you want to contact me.

From Robert.

Hi Robert

I would be very greatful to hear from you. I have dropped you a note but if that does not go through for any reason my email is

ron.mccoy@outlook.com

Thank you for taking the time to post a response to my questions. Hope we can get in touch soon am looking forward to it.

Cheers

Ron McCoy

HELLO

There is a local group called Pomeroy people and places, they do a zoom meet every 2nd Monday. Check them out, there maybe someone in that audience who could help you. I have a few Mc Coy surnames showing in my DNA results, they are distant & I think they possibly orginate in Termonmaguirc Parish. I do not have any further information.

Briege

Hi Briege

Thank you so much for the advice on the Pomeroy People and Places group. I will sign up for the history talks and follow along with the group discussion.

Cheers

Ron

Hello Laura,

Yes I have been in email contact with Ron McCoy in Canada, We have exchanged several emails plus lots of other family details.

Ron's ancestors were originally from the Pomeroy area of Co. Tyrone in Ireland, (as were mine).

Bye from Robert.