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Hello, I'm trying to trace the ancestors of my Great, Great Grandfather, Patrick Joseph Lyons, born 1870 in Tuam.  Alll that know for certain is that his father was called Martin, based on his marriage licence from when he came to Liverpool and married a local girl.  His father was a farmer and the rumour is, that his mother was called Catherine.  I'm a little bit frustrated at the dead end from 1870 backwards.  

Coming from Merseyside, our Scots and Irish roots are very important to us, for all sorts of cultural and political reasons.  Does anybody have any tips that could help me get a little deeper into the past.  

Thanks

Michael

 

 

Michael Evans

Monday 19th July 2021, 03:52PM

Message Board Replies

  • Hi Michael,

    Have you looked for Patrick in Irish birth records at irishgenealogy.ie? It's a free website.

    Have you looked for him at rootsireland.ie, which has birth and baptismal records, among others?  There's a fee to use it.

    Also, have you checked all Patrick's records in Merseyside?  Census, marriage (church and civil), death, headstone, obituary/death notice, probate, etc.?

    You might also consider joining an Irish genealogy society such as the Irish Family History Society or the Irish Family History Forum.

    Finally, don't put too much stock in the birth year being 1870.  People were not so aware of birthdays as we are, and you'll sometimes  find a variety of ages for the same person in the records.

    Good luck!

    Patricia

    Monday 19th July 2021, 04:32PM
  • Michael:

    Civil registration of births started in 1864. I searched on the free site www.Irishgenealogy.ie and there were five Patrick Lyons baptismal records in the Tuam registration district from 1864-1880 but none had a father Martin.

    What year did he marry? Do you know the names of any siblings?

    Roger McDonnell

    Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Monday 19th July 2021, 05:25PM
  • Michael:

    I searched the subscription site Roots Ireland in Tuam RC parish and the only Lyons baptismal record with father Martin Lyons was a Bridget Lyons baptized February 3 1868 in Tuam. The mother was Catherine Brogan.

    Roger

    Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Monday 19th July 2021, 05:32PM
  •  

     

    Firstly, thank you all for your replies.  This is what I can tell you about my great great grandfather.  From what I know he was born in St. Jarlath, Tuam, although this is just from another profile on Ancestry, they have his date of birth as 1867, which backs up what you have pointed out about fluidity of birth dates.  Patrick joined the Connaught Rangers at the outbreak of WW1 and was killed at Gallipoli on August 23,  1915.  His name is on the Cenotaph in Birkenhead.
     

    Now on his wedding banns, in Liverpool in 1897 ( married a Protestant Liverpool girl in C of E church around the corner from my beloved Anfield, but the children were baptised and raised as catholics) his father is given as Martin, occupation farmer, deceased.  Apparently, he had an older brother called John, he was the second born and his youngest brother is called Martin.  Going on the naming traditions, would it be safe to say that as he was the second born, would his maternal grandfather be Patrick?  I do not know of any sisters, but that does not mean they do not exist.  There is a baptism record from 1855 for a John Lyons, parents Martin and Catherine Lyons from Tuam, but would the distance in the ages be too great? 
     

     

    Now the Bridget link does interest me because could a sister have slipped the net?  The youngest son Martin, named one of his children Bridget.

    Now Patrick named his children in order, Catherine, Martin ( my great grandfather), Martha, Patrick and John Dennis. Catherine and Martin were born in Liverpool, shortly after, the family moved across the Mersey and Martha, Patrick and John Dennis were born in Birkenhead, where I am now.

    Based on the info that you have all kindly given me, I have new lines I can toy with, so once again, thank you very much.  If I may ask one other question, based on my family background would the present members of my family be considered as part of the extended Irish diaspora?  Although gone a long time, Patrick didn't exactly go far and Merseyside cherishes its Irish connection in the same way parts of the N.E. USA do.  I hope that I have phrased that question properly, and it doesn't come across as cultural appropriation.  I have a firm identity of my own, rooted in our peculiar view of ourselves as opposed to the rest of England that we have here, but the deeper I delve it's important for me to know more.

    Take care

    Michael

     

    Michael Evans

    Monday 19th July 2021, 10:52PM
  • Michael:

    Someone born in 1855 would have been 59 at the outbreak of Worls War I so possible but unlikely to be a soldier on the front line?

    The naming pattern question is hard to answer with certainty because it was followed in many cases but not in all cases. Maybe both grandfathers were named Martin and Patrick was an uncle etc.

    You and your family would be considered Irish diaspora.

    Roger

    Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Tuesday 20th July 2021, 03:23PM
  • Hello Roger.

    I think I probably got muddled in my last message, it was my 2 x Great Grandfather Patrick 1870-1915 who was killed at Gallipoli, he was 45.  His supposed brother John was born in 1855, it's that that confuses me as the gap of 15 years I thought may have been too large for them to be brothers.

    Thank you for answering the diaspora question, it's a community that I'm humbled to be able to say I belong to and be accepted into.

    You may receive another reply that I had composed to this message but the site crashed when I sent it, so I'm sending this.  Thank you once again for your time and interest. My research continues.

    Michael

    Michael Evans

    Wednesday 21st July 2021, 06:50AM
  • Michael:

    Just one reply so the crash wiped out your first effort. All the best with your research.

    Roger

    Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Wednesday 21st July 2021, 11:49PM