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Michael Wyse and Ellen Connors of Waterford County, Ireland

Hello:  I am searching for Michael Wyse & Ellen Connors who were married  24 Feb 1811 at  St John's Parish, Waterford City,  They were both Roman Catholic and no parents were listed but witnesses were John Connors & Matthew Machey.  I do not have birth or death records for them but I have estimated their births based on the marriage date-Michael about 1780 and Ellen about 1791.  I am estimating that Michael died before 1834 because Tithe applotments appear for Ellen alone after that.  The last record I have for Ellen is a Title Applotment record in 1863 so I have estimated her death after 1893.  

The only records I have found for these people are baptisms of a few children and Title Applotment records as follow:

Children:

-Andrew Wyse born 1811 but no birth or baptism records found for him.  The Tithe Applotment records show an Andrew Wyse at Ballycourdra Townland, St John's Without, Gaultiere, County Waterford,in 1845, 1846 and 1847 which may be him.  He is next found in the 1850 New York census  in Buffalo, Erie County, New York, USA with his wife Jane and an infant child Sarah Jane.  

-Ireland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s) Michael Last name Wyse Birth year - Baptism year 1825 Baptism date 03 Nov 1825 Parish St. John's, Waterford City Alternative parish names Ballygunner, St. John's, Waterford City Diocese Waterford and Lismore County Waterford Country Ireland Father's first name(s) Michaelis Father's last name Wyse Mother's first name(s) Elenora Mother's last name Connors Repository.  

The Tithe Applotment records show Ellen at the following locations:

1834 Carrig West  Townland, St John's Without, Waterford, Ireland

1835 Ballytruckle Townland, St John's Without, Gaultiere, Waterford, Ireland

1835 Waterford Townland, St John's Without, Waterford, Ireland

1845 & 1863 Ballytruckle, St John's Without, Gaultiere, Waterford, Ireland

I have scrolled through the Parish of St. John's, Waterford City records and have found several records in which Ellen Wyse was a sponsor or witness to other baptisms & marriages and several other Connor/s records.  I will do that again because they may be other baptims records for her chldren.  What is the meaning of "Alternative Parish name of Ballygunner, St. John's, Waterford City and should I be looking for records for it?

I know that this is very scant information but would be most grateful for any guidance that someone may provide.  

 

Many thanks in advance,

HPW, Canada

 

HelenWyse

Wednesday 3rd July 2019, 06:38PM

Message Board Replies

  • Hi Helen,

    You mention two children. I found records for some more on Roots Ireland.

    James 6 Dec 1818. Mother is listed as Helen Connors.

    Catherine 28 April 1821(Helen Connors)

    John 14 Nov 1825 (Eleanor Connors) This one is at odds with your record of Michael born 3 Nov 1825 but I have had a look at the register and to my mind it is Joanem or similar and the figure that looks like a 3 is actually the B for Baptised.

    https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632244#page/24/mode/1up

    Regarding Andrew Wyse, is he your direct ancestor? Do you know for sure that he is the child of Michael and Ellen? 

    On Find my Past there is a valuation office record of Andrew in Ballycourdra in 1850 so, putting in doubt that it is the same Andrew as appears in the census in New York the same year. 

    If Andrew is the son of Michael and Ellen it is likely he was born between Mar 1816 and June 1818 where there is a gap in the parish registers. But the trouble is, without this record it is impossible to prove that he is their son unless you have other information such as a death record that shows his parents names.

    I am curious to know what record you have that shows Ellen in 1863. Why do you estimate her death as after 1893? If this is the case there should be a record of it in the Civil Registrations and there does not appear to be any such record.

    I did however find another record on Find my Past with reference to Ellen Wyse. This is from the 'Waterford Poor Law Union Board of Guardians Minute Books' It is dated 14 Feb 1856 and is a request by a Mr Laurence Power of Ballytruckle requesting his name be placed on the Rate Book for the house office and land formerly held by Ellen Wyse.

    I don't know if this means that Ellen had died or had simply moved off the land.

    The alternative Parish name is simply that, another name for the parish. In this case St John's was/is also called Ballygunner. There are no separate records, they are the same thing.

    Miriam

    Thursday 4th July 2019, 09:59AM
  • Hello Helen,

    This is in response to one of the questions you have concerning St. John’s Parish, alternate name Ballygunner. In this case Ballygunner was actually a civil parish located southeast of Waterford City. Further, it was situated within the Catholic Parish of St. John’s. The alternate name of Ballygunner also tells you where to look for the location of church where Michael “Wise” and Ellen Conners were married in 1811, and where their son Michael was baptized in 1825.

    You can actually see the location of the “R.C. Chapel” where Michael and Ellen were married and where their son Michael was baptized on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1841 time period. The map is from the GeoHive website and can be viewed at: http://bit.ly/2LzRNSE

    When get the map make sure you click on “Close Menu” to view a greater surface of the map, as the R.C. Chapel is situated in the upper-left corner of the image. Across the bottom of the map in large black letters you’ll see the name of the civil parish, BALLYGUNNER.

    For an enlarged view of the Ballygunner R.C. Chapel, graveyard, and National School on the Ordnance Survey Map from GeoHive, go to: http://bit.ly/2LFWJFL

    Another Ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period shows that the R.C. Chapel is named St. Mary’s R.C. Church, and that it is located within the townland of Knockboy. Knockboy was in the civil parish of Ballygunner as well. See the map from the GeoHive website link at: http://bit.ly/2LHrzgS

    This St. Mary’s Church however would not have been the church structure where Michael Wyse and Ellen Connors where married and where their son Michael was baptized. According to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website, St. Mary’s was constructed circa 1870. You can read about the architectural details and view a photo of the church at the Buildings of Ireland article at:
    http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=WA&r...

    Once at the Buildings of Ireland link go down to the “Appraisal” section of the article, and you’ll see that the church was built on the site of a previous church which was constructed before 1840. This pre-1840 church is the R.C. Chapel you see on the Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1841 time period.

    A Google Map shows that St. Mary’s Church in Ballygunner is 3.2 miles southeast of Waterford City by the shortest route. See the map at: https://is.gd/4sgS43

    For a Google Street View of St. Mary’s Church and cemetery, go to: https://is.gd/IIcn51

    Irish Catholic marriages traditionally took place in the bride’s parish, and so it is possible that Ellen Connors was baptized in the old R.C. Chapel which is St. Mary’s Catholic Church today, although I searched for her baptism transcription at the Find My Past website for the Catholic Parish of St. John’s Waterford, but didn’t find it. One the possibilities is that she was born in another Waterford parish but moved to the Ballygunner Civil Parish after she was born.

    I next went to the Tithe Applotment Books to see if there were any leaseholders named Connors, as well as Wyse/Wise residing in the Ballygunner civil parish. The tithes were enumerated in the Ballygunner civil parish between 1832 and 1834. I didn’t find anyone named Wyse or Wise recorded in the Ballygunner Parish, but did find the name Patrick Connors recorded four times leasing property in the townland of Callaghane, civil parish of Ballygunner.

    You can see the Tithe Applotment Books index for the four Patrick Connors entries in Callaghane at the National Archives of Ireland link at: https://is.gd/SV3lqk

    Patrick Connors in the tithe record may refer to just one individual by that name who leased 4 different properties in Callaghane. Patrick Connors may have been related to Ellen Connors Wyse.

    Though the Tithes were recorded over 20 years after Michael Wyse and Ellen Connors were married, there’s the possibility that Ellen was born in Callaghane, but that is not a certainty, just circumstantial evidence that she may have been.

    To view Callaghane on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1841 time period, go to the GeoHive link at: http://bit.ly/2LCnUB8

    A Google Map shows that Callaghane, by the shortest modern day route, is only 2.1 miles south of St. Mary’s Church in Ballygunner: https://is.gd/GN761w
    For a Google Street View of Callaghane, go to: https://is.gd/OjllJm

    I also found a Patrick "Connor" recorded twice in Callaghane in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation. Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for Callaghane was completed by the year 1848. This Patrick Connor may be the same Patrick Connors recorded in the Tithe Applotment Books.

    Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman for the owner. This person was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

    You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the askaboutireland website link at:
    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

    Below is a transcription of the first Griffiths Valuation entry for Patrick Connor in Callaghane:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 7
    Civil Parish: Ballygunner
    Townland: Callaghane
    Occupier: Patrick Connor
    Immediate Lessor: William Merchant, Esq.
    Description of Tenement: House and land
    Area of Land: 16 Acres, 3 Roods, 25 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 11 Pounds, 5 Shillings
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 2 Pounds, 5 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 13 Pounds 10 Shillings
    ____

    Griffiths Valuation shows that Patrick Connor leased over 16 acres of land and a house from an Immediate Lessor named William Merchant, Esq. The Esquire designation probably means that William Merchant was a lawyer, though he may not have owned the property, but may have been a middle man for the owner. The land was valued at 11 Pounds and 5 Shillings while the house was valued at 2 Pounds and 5 Shillings. The total valuation for the property that Patrick leased was 13 Pounds and 10 Shillings. He would have paid a percentage of this value toward the tax.

    The Reference to Map Number (7), refers to the location of Patrick’s lease in Callaghane as found on an Ordnance Survey Map from the time period. The Ordnance Survey maps that accompany Griffiths Valuation entries are similar to the Ordnance Survey Maps that you can access at the GeoHive website, the difference being the Ordnance Survey Map from GeoHive do not have a property’s map reference designation numbers and letters printed on them.

    The second Griffiths Valuation entry for Patrick Connor in Callaghane shows that he leased over 2 acres of land at Map Reference 8 from Immediate Lessors named George Roberts and Michael Murphy. Patrick didn’t lease a house with this property. The land was valued at 1 Pound and 2 Shillings, which was the total valuation for the property. Patrick would not have been required to pay a tax on this lease as only those leases valued over 5 Pounds were subject to the tax.

    The Griffiths Valuation transcription for Patrick is below:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 8
    Civil Parish: Ballygunner
    Townland: Callaghane
    Occupier: Patrick Connor
    Immediate Lessor: George Roberts and Michael Murphy
    Description of Tenement: Land
    Area of Land: 2 Acres, 2 Roods, 10 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 1 Pound, 2 Shillings
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: -
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 1 Pound, 2 Shillings
    ____

    Based on your information that Ellen Wyse had lived in Ballytruckle, I found her in Griffiths Valuation leasing over 2 acres of land, a house, and offices there at map number 11. The land was over 2 acres and valued at 6 Pounds and 11 Shillings. The house and offices were valued at 2 Pounds and 5 Shillings, for a total valuation of 8 Pounds and 16 Shillings.

    The Griffiths Valuation transcription for Ellen Wyse is below:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 11
    Civil Parish: Parish of St. John’s Without
    Townland: Ballytruckle
    Occupier: Ellen Wyse
    Immediate Lessor: John P. Fitzgerald, Esq.
    Description of Tenement: House, offices, and land
    Area of Land: 2 Acres, 1 Rood, 15 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 6 Pounds, 11 Shillings
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 2 Pounds, 5 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 8 Pounds, 16 Shillings
    ____

    An office or offices in Griffiths Valuation refer to outbuildings such barns, stables, blacksmith shops, piggeries, etc. I found Ellen’s lease on the Ordnance Survey Map that accompanies Griffiths Valuation, but I have not found a way to copy these maps or link them for others to view. But, I can show you the approximate location of Ellen’s lease on an Ordnance Survey Map from the GeoHive website. To access the map of Ballytruckle, go to: http://bit.ly/2LAViZ5

    In the center of the map you’ll see the name of the townland Ballytruckle in capital letters. Just above the letter K in Ballytruckle you’ll see a square of land just to the left of the road and below the Ursuline Convent. Ellen’s lease was in this square of land.

    For a Google Map of Ballytruckle, go to: https://is.gd/BcVlbw

    I tried to locate Ellen’s property in Ballytruckle on the Google Street View, but the road where her house would have been situated is all built up with houses and businesses now. I believe it would not have been far from the Plumbing and Heating Suppliers company along the Pearse Park road, which you can view at: https://is.gd/lUHY8g

    Best Wishes Helen,

    Dave Boylan

    davepat

    Thursday 4th July 2019, 08:13PM
  • Dear Miriam & Dave: 

    Thank you for the effort and thoroughness of your responses to my post.  I do appreciate the time it must have taken you to sort through this for me. 

    Thank you Miriam for the additional children: James, Catherine and John.  I cannot find the baptism of John on the link that you provided (maybe due to my old eyes) but I saved a copy of the one I found and I think that it is probably for John and not Michael as you suggested. 

    Andrew Wyse was my great grandfather.  He married  Jane Nickle and the marriage record lists the parents for both parties.   Here is a transcription of the marriage record: “St Joseph and Patrick Catholic Church Buffalo NY 1849 July 22 Joined in marriage Andrew Wyse son of Michael and Helen Connors and Jane Nickle daughter of John and Cera (?Sarah) Perry witnesses Michael Holland and Eliza Murphy. 

     

    I also found the marriage record for Michael Wyse & Ellen Connors marriage as follows:

    St John's Parish, County Waterford, Ireland

    Date of Marriage: 24 Feb 1811

    Husband's Name: Michael Denomination: Roman Catholic

    Bride's Name: Ellen Connors Denomination: Roman Catholic

    Parents of both are blank

    Witnesses: John Connors & Matthew Machey

     

    I have Andrew’s birth date as 1811 based on his tombstone and death record which lists his death as 24 April 1893, age 82 years old.  This is consistent with ages listed in most census report.  He was quite a bit older than his wife Jane Nickle who was born in 1825.  I have often wondered if he had been previously married in Ireland but his wife died because the first records I have of him is his marriage and then the 1850 census.  

     

    Regarding Ellen Connors Wyse death date, I realize that I made a typo error on my initial post.  The last tithe record I found for her was in 1863 in Ballytruckle Townland, St John's Without, Gaultiere, Waterford so I estimate that she died sometime after 1863 (not 1893 as typed).  Yes, there should be a civil registration record for her death but I have not found one.  I suppose it is possible that she remarried but she would have been 72 years old in 1863. 

     

    I did not see the Waterford Poor Law Union Board of Guardian Minute Books on Find My Past and I do not know what the implications are of those records.  Is it possible that  Laurence Power was a son-in-law of hers or some other relative who expected  inherit her property?  Or, would he simply be someone applying to be tenant after her departure from the land?  She appears in Ballytruckle in 1863 so perhaps Laurence Power was living with her at that time.

     

    Dave, I have spent some time on the links that you have provided and I must say I have a lot more work to do on them, but what a history lesson in Irish title & griffith valuation records. And thanks so much for pinpointing Ellen's property in Ballytruckle which is probably the closest I will get to knowing where she lived. 

    Best Regards,

    Helen, Canada

     

     

    HelenWyse

    Tuesday 9th July 2019, 08:31PM
  • Hi Helen,

    The record for John Wyse is on page 69 of the registers. I think the issue is that the year 1825 is spread out in a couple of places, ie. the records for 1825 come to an end, are followed by 1823 and 1824 and then revert back to 1825 and somehow the link brought you back to the first entry for 1825. 

    On Find My Past, towards the top right of the search page there is a 'A to Z of record sets' button. If you click on this and enter Waterford Poor Law Union... then enter Ellen Wyse and the date 1856 you will see the record. I have done a bit of digging to find out what these records mean and it appears to me that Ellen was probably in the Poor House (Workhouse) at this time and Laurence Power was taking over her lease. 

    As Dave said, the Tithes for this area were taken between 1832 and 1834 and Griffiths is dated 1848 so I am still unsure what record you found for 1863. And this could be just my eyes too..

    If Ellen was in the Workhouse by 1856 it is likely she died between then and 1864 when Civil Registration was introduced.

    This could be totally off the right track but there is a record on Family Search of the death of Ellen Brotherton, born in Ontario, Canada 1856. Father Andrew Wyse. Mother Jane Nichol. Is this a daughter of your Andrew? Her death record gives his birthplace as Belfast, Ireland. This couple also had children called Sarah, James and Robert. 

    Miriam

    Wednesday 10th July 2019, 06:45PM
  • You''re welcome Helen and thank you for writing back.

    Dave

    davepat

    Thursday 18th July 2019, 01:36AM