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Hello, my name is Barbara. I'm the great-great granddaughter of James Morris and Alice Shanahan. Below is the inoformation that I already know. If someone can make the connection between his/her family and mine, I would love to hear from you!

James MORRIS,(born ca 1836), married Alice Shanahan ( born ca 1841). Morris and Shanahan were married  in Gortnahoe, County Tipperary.the 7th of June, 1860. This couple appeared in the 1901 Census and not in the 1911 Census I'm still looking for their dates and place of death.

I've (so far) found 6 children born to James and Alice. John,Mary,Patrick,James, Thomas and CATHERINE Morris. Catherine is my gr-grandmother. Catherine Morris married Christian Hansen in Camden,New Jersey, United States, the 3rd of March,1893.I found a few marriages of these children:

John Morris married Johanna HEFFERMAN on the 21/02/1909, at the Chapel of New Birmingham,Kilcooly, Union of Urlingford. This couple was seen on the 1911 census with their 3 children). John is named JAMES( I can identify this brother because of Joanna, his wife).The James Morris family lived in KENNYBEG, district of Cooleagh, TIPPERARY. James is 44 at the time of this Census ( born ca 1867).

James Morris married Catherine RYAN on the 09/09/1917,Thurles.

I'll post other information as I go along.

Best wishes to all,

Barbara

 

 

 

 

B Carroll

Monday 24th February 2020, 03:43PM

Message Board Replies

  • Hi Barbara

    Welcome to IrelandXO

    You do not mention twin siblings Anastasia & Maria Morris born on 19th May 1877.   https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03009/2103026.pdf

    Alice Shanahan Morris aged 74 resided with her daughter Stasia Morris Kelly / Grandchildren at time of 1911 Census. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003353433/ 

    James Morris died on the 9th October 1910, his wife Alice listed as present at death.  https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1910/05411/4512093.pdf

    Regards

    Gerard, Parish Liaison Lackagh

    Monday 2nd March 2020, 09:31AM
  • Hi Gerard, Thank you so much for your help ! How wonderful to have the photos of the records !! I've only recently begun to work my ancestors parish of origin. This is wonderful to have discovered through you, these new discoveries ! I had been searching in the 1900 and 1901 census on the NLI website. But I definately think that you may have a wee more experience than me in using the Irish genealogy resources ! There is one question that I'd like to ask, please. When I looked at the parish registers at Gornahoe, I noticed that there were only baptisms and marriages. Why were there no burial registers?  Where can one find burial records for the 19th  century?  Many thanks to you and greetings from Paris, France ( yes,the Irish never stop moving  !)   Barbara

     

    B Carroll

    Tuesday 3rd March 2020, 08:23AM
  • Dear Barbara, Gerard and everyone else. I'm from Melbourne, Australia. I'm wondering if anyone here can help me with any info on a John Cavanagh and a Mary ???. John was born about 1815-20 and had a daughter Ellen who was born in about 1839/40. We know she came from Thurles,Tipperary, Ireland or at least was living there for some of her childhood. At about 10-13 years old Ellen would've gone to either New York or Boston, USA with or without her parents. I have seen some John Cavanagh's being from or lived in or near Gortnahoe. Maybe a marriage certificate or death certificate or Ellen's birth certificate would be great if anyone could search churches in Gortnahoe for me please. Thx Mark

    Fetchitnow

    Tuesday 3rd March 2020, 01:22PM
  • Hello Barbara,

    I’m not related but found information that I believe refers to your Morris and Shanahan ancestors. You had mentioned in your message to Ireland Reaching Out that you found James and Alice in the 1901 census. I accessed the 1901 census at the National Archives of Ireland website and found that 65 year old James and 60 year old Alice and three of their children were living in the townland of Deryvilla, D.E.D. (District Electoral Division) of New Birmingham. The children in the household are 26 year old John; 22 year old Mary; and 12 year old Pat.

    I next looked for the Morris family in the 1911 census and found that 74 year old Alice was still living in “Derryvella.” She is shown to be a widow who cannot read. In the household with her is her 35 year old married daughter, Statia Kelly. Also in the household are Statia’s 3 children. These are 6 year old Maggie; 4 year old Alice; and 3 month old Catherine. Statia’s husband is not in the household.

    You can view a copy of the original 1911 census for Alice, her daughter, and grandchildren at the following National Archives of Ireland link: https://is.gd/X1qDPk

    Make sure to check the box “Show all information” to show the full census.

    At the bottom right of the census form you’ll see that Alice signed with an X, which was witnessed by the constable that collected the census, Martin Maher.

    Barbara, you hadn’t mentioned in your message to Ireland Reaching Out that James and Alice Morris had a daughter named Statia, the full name of which would be Anastatia, which I’ve also seen spelled as “Anastasia,” and Anastacia in some records. Before looking for the death of Alice’s husband James I first wanted to see if I could uncover the marriage record for Statia Morris and the Kelly fellow that she married.

    I found the marriage record at the free irishgenealogy.ie website, showing that Statia Morris and Philip Kelly were married in the Catholic Chapel of Gortnahoe on 6 September 1904. An alternate spelling of Gortnahoe is Gortnahoo, which was in the civil parish of Buolick. Both Philip and Statia were of full age when they married. Statia is shown to have been a spinster at the time of marriage, meaning she had not been married before. Her occupation was Servant. Her residence at the time of marriage was Derryvilla. Her father is James Morris, a Labourer.

    At the time of marriage Philip Kelly was a bachelor and was employed as a Labourer. His residence at the time of marriage was Pointstown, the more common spelling of which is Poyntstown. His father is Michael Kelly, a Labourer. A Parish Priest named Father Burke married Philip and Statia. The witnesses to the marriage were Thomas Dineen and Mary Morris. Philip signed the marriage register with an X, signifying he could not write. The X was witnessed by Father Burke. The marriage record is attached to this reply and is the first entry in the register at Number 143.

    Derryvilla/Derryvella may be the town in County Tipperary that is spelled Derryville. A Google Map shows that Derryville, by the shortest route, is 8.2 miles north of Gortnahoe. See the map at: https://is.gd/8625Fl

    For a Google Street View of Derryville see: https://is.gd/tJVmpN

    For a Google Street Views Gortnahoe, go to: https://is.gd/oqWjV3 and https://is.gd/JhFAhK

    The second Street View of Gortnahoe shows the location of the Church of the Sacred Heart. This church is very old and is the church where Philip Kelly and Statia Kelly were married in 1904.

    According to the National Inventory of Architectural heritage/Buildings of Ireland website, the church was constructed in “Gortnahoo” in 1820. You can read a description of the architecture of the church as well as view a brief slide show of the church at the Buildings of Ireland link at: https://is.gd/YjsaJT

    Irish tradition holds that marriages take place in the bride’s parish, which means the Gortnahoe church would have been the parish church of the Morris family all those years ago.

    JAMES MORRIS’S DEATH RECORD

    While at the irishgenealogy.ie website I looked for the death record of James Morris. He would have died between 1901 and 1911. I found his death record showing he died in Derryville on 9 October 1910 at the age of 75. Hus occupation had been Labourer. The cause of death was, “Pneumonia 8 days. Certified.” The person who was present at his death and who reported the death to the local registrar was James’s wife Alice, whose residence was Derryville. The registrar, P.H. Burke, recorded the death on 14 October 1910. James’s death is at Number 93 in the attached death register.

    The 1901 census shows that James was 65, while his 1910 death record gives his age as 75, placing his year of birth circa 1835, 1836. You have his year of birth as circa 1836.

    ALICE MORRIS’S DEATH RECORD

    I also found Alice Morris’s death record at irishgenealogy.ie. She died in “Derryvella” on 3 September 1920 at the age of 87 years. The death record shows that Alice was the “Widow of a Labourer.” The cause of death was “Old age. 6 days-no Medical Attendant.” The person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the local registrar was her son James, whose residence was Derryvella. The reigstar, P.H. Burke recorded the death on 6 September 1920. Alice’s death is at Number 499 in the attached death register.

    In the 1901 census Alice Morris was recorded as being 60 years old, placing her year of birth circa 1841. In the 1911 census she is 74 years old, placing her year of birth circa 1837. Her death record on the other hand shows she was 87 years old in 1920, placing her year of birth circa 1833. This shows you cannot always trust the age of a person in the old records such as these.

    James and Alice may be buried in the Church of the Sacred Heart graveyard on the church grounds. A Google Street View of the corner of the church shows the graves in the church grounds: https://is.gd/kSm8n0

    According to information found at the Find A Grave website, the Church of the Sacred Heart is also known as St. Anne’s. The Find A Grave site also mentions there is another cemetery called the Gortnahoe New Cemetery within walking distance of the church. See the Find A Grave link at: https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2601114/gortnahoe-new-cemetery

    The following Google Street View shows the Gortnahoe New Cemetery/Good Shepherd Cemetery and the Church of the Sacred Heart, or St. Anne’s down the road in the left background of the view: https://is.gd/CbDgpj

    Barbara, post another message to Ireland Reaching Out XO Chronicles, and maybe someone living in or near Gortnahoe will be able to give you more information about these cemeteries and perhaps even look in the cemeteries for the burials of any Morris family who may be buried there.

    Concerning burial records, many Catholic Churches in the 19th and early 20th centuries did not keep burial records. The National Library of Ireland does not have burial records for the Gortnahoe Catholic Church, which today is the Church of the Sacred Heart, or St. Anne’s. You can send an email to the Parish Priest of the Church, Father Nicholas J. Irwin, and ask if there are any old burial records kept by the church. His email address is: nicholasjirwin@eircom.net

    THE CHILDREN OF JAMES MORRIS AND ALICE SHANAHAN

    Barbara, you wrote that you found that James and Alice Morris had 6 children. I found the birth and or baptisms of at least 9 of their children, including twins. Are there any twins in your immediate family?

    While at irishgenealogy.ie I uncovered the civil registration birth records for 8 children of James Morris and Alice Shanahan. The names and years of birth for these children follow:

    Bridget Morris, 1864
    Catherine Morris, 1867
    Patrick Morris, 1870
    John Morris, 1872
    William Morris, 1875
    Mary Morris and Anastatia Morris, twins, 1877
    James Morris, 1880
    ____

    Civil registration began in Ireland in 1845 when the government recorded civil marriage records as well as Protestant marriages, but not Catholic marriages, though I have seen records where Catholic were married in a civil ceremony.

    Civil registration of births, marriages, and deaths for all religious denominations commenced in Ireland in 1864. This means that any children born prior to 1864 would not be recorded in the civil registration system, though some Catholic churches did record dates of birth along with the date of baptism of the child.

    James and Alice’s son Thomas was born in 1861, and so there is no civil registration birth record for him. You’ll see his baptism record later in this reply.

    BRIDGET MORRIS

    Bridget Morris’s date of birth in 1864 was originally recorded as what appears to be 3rd January. But this date is crossed through. Her place of birth looks like Gurteen Lower. The hand writing by the registrar who recorded the birth is very difficult to decipher. You can barely make out the name of Bridget’s father and unless you knew her father was James, you wouldn‘t be able to decipher the father’s name at all. The mother is Alice Morris, formerly Shanahan. The occupation of Bridget’s father James is Labourer. The name of the person who was present at the birth and who reported the birth to the registrar is difficult to read, but appears to say, “The mark of witness Shanahan, Grand Mother.” The residence of the grandmother is also difficult to read, though looks like Gurteen Lower. But, the words “grandmother,” and the grandmother’s residence are crossed through, as is the date the birth was recorded, 15 February, 1864. The first name of the registrar who recorded the birth is James, though I couldn’t make out his last name.

    Bridget’s birth record is attached to this reply and is the first one recorded in the register.

    CATHERINE MORRIS

    Catherine “Morriss” was born in “Mellisane,” Tipperary, on 16 March 1867. Her father is James Morriss, a labourer residing in Mellisane. Catherine’s mother is Alice Morriss, formerly Shanahan. James reported the birth to the local registrar, Ambrose Lane, who recorded the birth on 18 March 1867. Catherine’s birth is Number 293 in the attached birth record. The actual spelling of Mellisane is Mellisson. You can view Mellisson on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1843 time period at the GeoHive website link at: http://bit.ly/2VK0GOs

    PATRICK MORRISS

    The next birth is for Patrick Morriss, who was born in “Mellisane” on 6 Febrauary 1870. His father is James “Morriss” a labourer from Mellisane. Patrick’s mother is Alice Morris, formerly Shanahan. James reprted the birth to the local registrar, Ambrose Lane, who recorded the birth on 14 February 1870. Patrick’s birth in Number 23 in the attached birth register. You’ll notice in this birth record that the double s in the surname Morriss is spelled the way the double s was spelled in the 18th and 19th century by some people. The first letter s in Morris is replaced by the letter f, so the name looks like this: “Morrifs.”

    JOHN MORRISS

    The birth of John “Morrifs” took place in Gurteen, Tipperary, on 24 November 1872. His father is James, a labourer living in Gurteen. John’s mother is Alice Morrifs, formerly Shanahan. James reported the birth to Ambrose Lane, who recorded the birth on 10 December 1872. John’s birth is the first entry in the attached register at Number 263.

    WILLIAM MORRISS

    William Morrifs was born in Derryvella on 13 August 1875. His father is James, a labourer residing in Berryvilla. William’s mother is Alice Morrifs, formerly SHanahan. James reported the birth to Ambrose Lane who recorded the birth on 13 August 1872. William’s birth is at Number 3, or 2nd to the last entry in the attached birth register.

    MARIA AND ANASTATIA MORRIS

    The registrar, Ambrose Lane recorded the births of Maria and Anastatia Morris (this time with the modern double s spelling of Morris), on 1 June 1877. The twins were born in Derryvella on 29 May 1877 to labourer James Morris of Derryvella, and Alice Morris, formerly Shanahan. James reported the births to Ambrose Lane. The births are at Numbers 149 and 150 in the attached birth register. Anastatia would go on to marry Philip Kelly on 6 September 1904.

    JAMES MORRIS

    The youngest child whose birth I found was James Morris, born in Derryville on St. Patrick’s Day, 17 March, 1880. His father is James Morris, a labourer from Derryville. James’s mother is Alice Morris, formerly Shanahan. The person who was present at the birth and who reported the birth to the registrar was Kate Morris, who may have been James’s sister. The registrar, Patrick H. Burke recorded the birth on 22 March 1880. James’s birth record is Number 100 in the attached birth register.

    The above records show that between the birth of Catherine in 1864 and the birth of James in 1880, the Morris family had lived in three different County Tipperary locations, including Gurteen, Mellisson,and Derryville. You can see the locations of these three townlands on a Google Map at: https://is.gd/GGNUQn

    As you saw earlier James and Alice were in Derryville into the 20th century. James died 10 years before Alice, on 9 October 1910 while Alive died on 6 September 1920

    You can view an Ordnance Survey Map of Derryville produced between 1888 and 1913 at the following GeoHive website link: http://bit.ly/2wdmhUP

    The map shows you how Derryville looked during the exact time period when the Morris family lived there. When at the map make sure to click on “Close Menu” to view the full extension of the map.

    Before leaving the irishgenealogy.ie I found a record that may pertain to James and Alice’s daughter Catherine, and the birth of Catherine’s son Patrick. The record for Patrick shows he was born in Derryville on 21 June 1887. No father or father’s occupation is recorded for him. His mother is Kate Morris, who is working as a “Domestic Servant.” That no father is recorded for Patrick and that Kate uses her maiden name is an indication that Patrick was born out of wedlock.

    Kate’s residence is also Derryville. Kate reported the birth to the registrar, P.H. Burke, who recorded Patrick’s birth on 15 July 1887. Patrick’s birth is at Number 87 in the attached birth record.

    I didn’t find any more information about Kate Morris or her son Patrick. I looked for them in the 1901 and 1911 census enumerations, but didn’t find them in Derryville. I also checked marriage records to see if a Kate or Catherine Morris from Derryville had married, but did not find a marriage record. I likewise had no luck uncovering death records for Kate or Patrick in Derryville. It’s possible these records exist and that I missed locating them. But again, I can’t be entirely certain that this Catherine Morris was the daughter of James Morris and Alice Shanahan.

    THE MORRIS BAPTISM RECORDS

    I found the Gortnahoe Catholic baptism records for all the Morris children except James. Initially I located transcriptions of the baptisms at the Find My Past (FMP) website. Find My Past (FMP) is mainly a subscription-based or Pay-As-You-Go website, but does not charge to search Irish Catholic baptisms, marriages, and available church burial transcriptions for all of Ireland for much of the 19th century.

    To search for Catholic Church baptism, marriage, and burial transcriptions at FMP, you’ll first have to register. Registration is free.

    The search engine for the FMP baptism transcriptions can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/jnmqmuv

    The search engine for Catholic marriages can be accessed at: http://tinyurl.com/jzylkjy

    For Catholic Parish burial transcriptions go to the search engine at: http://tinyurl.com/j9qe5p9

    Attached to each transcription is a link that takes you to a copy of the original baptism, marriage, or burial register entry for the person. The church registers are held by the National Library of Ireland on Kildare Street in Dublin City.

    All of the Morris children were baptized in the Gortnahoe Catholic Parish.

    THE BAPTISM OF THOMAS MORRIS

    The FMP transcription for Thomas Morris shows he was baptized on 3 March 1861. His father is James Morris. His mother is recorded as “Alicia” Morris. Alicia would be the Latin for Alice. The residence of the Morris family at the time of the baptism is Gurteen.

    You can view the transcription at the following FMP link: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0203912

    The transcription shows that at the time of Thomas’s baptism he and his family were living in Gurteen.

    To access a copy of the original Gortanhoe Catholic baptism record for Thomas, go to the National Library of Ireland link at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632728#page/92/mode/1up

    There are two facing pages to the baptism register. Thomas’s baptism is on the right hand page, 4th entry below the March subheading.

    You can enlarge the page by means of round icons in the upper center/ right of the screen. The icons are white with green backgrounds. You can also access the full-screen function by clicking on the last icon on the right with the two arrows pointing northeast and southwest.

    Thomas’s sponsors or godparents are Thomas Duggan and Mary Kearns. In the baptism record, just to the right of Alica Morris’s name, you’ll see the name of the townland where the Morris family were living. The name of the townland looks like Gurteen. To the right of the godmother Mary Kearns you’ll see the initials J.S. These are the initials of the priest who baptized Thomas.

    THE BAPTISM OF BRIDGET MORRIS

    Bridget was baptized on 2 February 1864. The transcription notes the family were living in Gurteen. You can see her FMP baptism transcription at:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0204219

    Bridget’s mother’s first name. like the baptism for Thomas, is recorded as “Alicia.”

    A copy of Bridget’s original baptism record can be accessed at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632728#page/103/mode/1up

    Her baptism record is on the left hand page, 3rd entry up from the bottom of the register. The first name of the godfather appears to be Walter. I could not make out his last name. The first name of the godmother appears to be Alicia. Her last name looks like Maher.

    THE BAPTISM OF CATHERINE MORRIS

    The baptism of Catherine Morris took place on 23 March 1867. The residence of the family is recorded as Gurteen.

    The FMP baptism transcription for Catherine can be accessed at the following link: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0204539

    Catherine’s baptism can be found on the left hand register page, 2nd entry up from the April subheading at the National Library of Ireland link: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632728#page/115/mode/1up

    Her godparents are Patrick Shanahan and Margaret Gleason.

    THE BAPTISM OF PATRICK MORRIS

    The FMP transcription shows that Patrick Morris was baptized on 1 February 1870. The residence of the family is recorded as “Millines.” See the transcription at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0204784

    Patrick’s baptism can be found on the right hand register page, first entry below the February subheading at:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632728#page/123/mode/1up

    Then godparents are John Nolan and Joanna White. To the right of Alice Morris’s name you’ll see the name of the town where the family were living. The actual spelling of this place is Mellisson, rather than Millines. A Google Map shows that Mellisson is 3.6 miles south of Gortnahoe: https://is.gd/AqlDA4

    THE BAPTISM OF JOHN MORRIS

    John was baptized on 29 October 1872 according to the FMP transcription at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0205049

    The residence of the family is Gurteen. The transcription however shows that his mother was Maria Shanahan , rather than Alice or Alicia. But, this record still refers to a child of James and Alicia.

    A copy of the original baptism record for John Morris is on the right hand baptism register page, first entry above the November subheading at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632728#page/132/mode/1up

    The first name of John’s mother does look like it can be Maria, but if you enlarge the entry you can see the letter i in her name twice. The handwriting in the baptism record understandably distracted the FMP transcriber, as her first name is Alicia. John’s godparents are Richard Duggan and Hanora MacBride.

    I initially missed locating John’s baptism transcription at the FMP website because I was looking for children of James Morris and Alice Shanahan, not Mary or Maria Shanahan.

    THE BAPTISM OF WILLIAM MORRIS

    William and his family were living in Derryville when he was baptized on 14 August 1875 according to the FMP transcription at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0205319

    A copy of William’s original baptism record held by the National Library of Ireland is the 2nd entry up from the bottom of the right hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632728#page/141/mode/1up

    The entry is dark and the handwriting difficult to read. I couldn’t really make out the first name of William’s godfather. It may be Johannes, which is the Latin for John. His last name is Morris. The first name of the godmother is Margaret. I couldn’t tell what her last name was.

    THE BAPTISMS OF MARY AND ANASTACIA MORRIS

    There is an FMP baptism transcription for Mary Morris, but not for Statia or Anasstatia/Anastasia. Mary was baptized on 21 May 1877. The Morris family were living in Derryville at the time of the baptism according to the FMP transcription at the following link:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0205470

    Even though Anastasia is not found in the FMP transcription, she is recorded just below her sister Mary in copies of the original baptism entries at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632728#page/147/mode/1up

    The children’s baptisms are on the left hand register page, 7th and 8th entries below the May subheading.

    I’ve transcribed both baptisms as best I could considering the handwriting is not always clear:

    21. Mary of James Morris + Alice Shanahan – Derryville
    Sp. Michael ? + Bridget White J.S.

    21. Anastacia of same parents Derryville
    Sp. Daniel & Sarah ? J.S.
    ____

    I could not make out the last name of Mary’s godfather or the last names of Anastacia’s godparents, Daniel and Sarah. The initials sp in baptism records are the Latin initials for “Sponsoribus,” or sponsors, meaning godparents.

    NO ONLINE BAPTISM RECORD FOR JAMES MORRIS

    There is no FMP baptism transcription of an 1880 baptism record for James Morris, as the Gortnahoe baptisms are only available to search at the National Library of Ireland until the year 1878. You can see the available years of Gortnahoe baptisms and marriages, as well as a map of the location of the Gortnahoe Catholic Parish at the following National Library of Ireland link: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0266

    In compiling the birth and baptism records for the Morris family, I was perplexed as to the family having lived in Gurteen, but having the children baptized in Gortnahoe. Gurteen is over 16 miles south of Gortnahoe. In addition, Gurteen was not in the same civil parish as Gortnahoe. Gortnahoe was in the civil parish of Buolick.

    Gurteen actually spanned two different civil parishes, including Ballingarry and Lougheen. See the Wikipedia article at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurteen,_County_Tipperary

    On the other hand, the Morris family is also shown to have lived in Mellisson and Derryvile. A Google Map shows that Mellisson is only 3.6 miles south of Gortnahoe: https://is.gd/qMx5fe

    While another Google Map shows that Derryville is 8.2 miles north of Gortnahoe: https://is.gd/or6XLO

    It’s possible that James Morris worked in Gurteen, but went back to his and Alice’s parish church to get married in 1860 and baptize those children who were born in Gurteen.

    I think it is also a possibility, even though some birth and baptism records note the family were living in Gurteen, that James, Alicia, and their children had lived in the similar sounding townland of Gorteen, and more specifically, Gorteen Lower.

    The following Google Map shows that Gorteen Lower is 7.2 miles south of Gortnahoe, and also borders Mellisson: https://is.gd/E7E5Sx

    An Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period also shows that Gorteen Lower and Mellisson border one another: http://bit.ly/3ajpEIK

    The 1864 baptism record for Bridget Morris (which is attached), shows that she born born in a place comprised of two words. It’s hard to tell if this place could be Gurteen Lower or Gorteen Lower. Also if you look at the marriage register entry for James and Alice, their residence also contains two names. Theirs is the 2nd to the last entry up from the bottom of the right hand page at the National Library of Ireland link: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632727#page/24/mode/1up

    Could their residence, as recorded by the priest, J.S. be Gorteen Lower? It’s hard to tell because of the handwriting

    But, even with the 1860 marriage record for James and Alice and the 1864 birth record of their daughter Bridget, I cannot conclusively prove that the Morris family had lived in Gorteen Lower, rather than in Gurteen to the south.

    JOHN MORRIS AND JOHANNA HEFFERNAN

    On another matter, in your message to Ireland Reaching Out you had mentioned that the James Morris in the 1911 census was actually John Morris, who married Johanna Heffernan in 1909. This John Morris would not be the son of James and Alice, as James and Alice’s son John was born in 1872, which would make him 39 years cold, rather than 44, which is the age of James/John Morris in the 1911 census. It is possible that his age of 44 in the 1911 census is off by five years, but the New Birmingham Catholic marriage record for John Morris and Johanna Heffernan shows that John’s father was also named John, not James. The marriage record does show however, that John was from Derryville, where your Morris family were also living. This John Morris, I suspect, was James and Alice’s nephew. For quick review, the marriage of John Morris and Johanna Heffernan is attached to this reply.

    JAMES MORRIS AND ALICE SHANAHAN

    The next search involved looking for the FMP baptism transcriptions for James Morris and Alice Shanahan in the Gortnahoe Catholic Parish.

    First, James Morris:

    JAMES MORRIS

    In the 1901 census James is 65 years old, placing his year or birth circa 1836. His place of birth in the 1901 census is County Tipperary. His 1910 death record shows he was 75, placing his year of birth circa 1835. I didn’t find a baptism transcription for James in the Gortnahoe Catholic Parish anytime in the 1830s. He may have been baptized in another Catholic Parish in County Tipperary, or it’s possible he was baptized in a parish in County Kilkenny to the east, which border Gortnahoe.

    James would have been born about 10 years before the Great Famine struck Ireland in 1845, which means he and his family may have moved from the parish where they came from, to another locale in County Tipperary, in order to look for work.

    ALICE SHANAHAN

    I found one Gortnahoe baptism transcription in the 1830s at the FMP website which may refer to your Alice Shanahan. This is the baptism of Ally Shanahan, daughter of Malach Shanahan and Judy Hanihan. Malach is short for the name Malachy, while Ally is the diminutive of Alice. Judy’s last name is, as you’ll see later, is actually Hanrahan. Ally was baptized on 16 December 1835, according to the transcription at:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0199264

    Ally’s baptism record is the fourth entry up from the bottom of the left hand register page at the following National Library of Ireland link: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632726#page/40/mode/1up

    The names of the godparents appear to be Ned Mulhale and Nelly Ryan.

    I next found the marriage transcription for Malachy Shanahan and Judy Hanrahan at the FMP website. They were married in the Gortnahoe Catholic Parish on 10 February 1834. You can view the transcription at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F0036063%2F1

    The marriage record for Malachy and Judy is on the left hand register page: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632726#page/109/mode/1up

    Once at the page scroll down until you come to the number 10 in the left margin. Then count down three marriages from the number 10 and you’ll come to the entry for Malachy Shanahan and Judy Hanrahan. The first name of one of the witnesses to the marriage is John. I could not make out his last name, but it begins with the letter D. The other witness is Nelly Ryan, who would become Ally’s godmother the following year.

    I next found that Malachy and Judy had three more children baptized in the Gortnahoe Catholic Parish after Ally. I was hoping that one of these baptisms would tell where the family had been living. These children include:

    Catherine Shanahan, 1 April 1840, no residence recorded
    Bridget Shanahan, 15 May 1845, no residence recorded
    Richard Shanahan, 13 June 1849, residence Millsane.
    ____

    I haven’t included links to the baptism transcriptions for Catherine and Bridget, or links to cipoies of their original Gortnahoe baptism records, as the residence of the family is not recorded in these records. But the transcription for Richard shows the family had been living in “Millsane,” which refers to Mellisson. You can view Richard’s FMP baptism transcription at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0202496

    Richard’s baptism is on the right hand register page, 2nd entry down from the top at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632728#page/45/mode/1up

    His godparents are William and Margaret Nolan.

    GRIFFITHS VALIUATION

    I next wanted to see if I could find if Malachy Shanahan was living in Mellisson in any other records. To do this I looked for him in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation. Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for Mellisson was completed by the year 1850.

    Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman for the owner. This person was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

    You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the askaboutireland website link at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

    I discovered in Griffiths Valuation that Malachy did lease property in Mellisson. See the valuation transcription for him from the askaboutireland website:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 12 Bb
    Civil Parish: Buolic
    Townland: Mellisson
    Occupier: Malachy Shanahan
    Immediate Lessor: Richard Hanrahan
    Description of Tenement: House and garden
    Area of Land: 34 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 2 Shillings
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 5 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 7 Shillings
    ____

    Griffiths Valuation shows that Malachy Shanahan leased a house and garden from an Immediate Lessor named Richard Hanrahan. We know that Malachy had married Judy Hanrahan, and had named one of their children Richard, who was baptized in 1849. The Immediate Lessor, Richard Hanrahan was likely related to Judy. He could have been her father or her brother. Richard was probably the overseer of the property that Malachy leased, rather than the owner.

    The garden was under an acre in size and valued at 2 Shillings. The house was valued at 5 Shillings. The total valuation for the property Malachy leased was 7 Shillings. He would not have been required to pay a tax on this property, as only those leases valued over 5 Pounds were subject to the tax. Malachy did not lease enough property to farm which means he may have been in one of the trades, such as a carpenter, blacksmith, wheelwright, tailor, cordwainer, cobbler, etc.

    The map reference number 12Bb refers to the location of Malachy’s lease on an Ordnance Survey Map, which can be accessed at the askaboutireland website index for Malachy Shanahan. The Ordnance Survey Maps accompanying Griffiths Valuation entries can be a challenge to navigate, as they contain a lot if map reference numbers. In some cases it’s even difficult to locate the townland of the occupier you are interested in. Also, I have been unable to link or attach the maps from askaboutireland. But, the Ordnance Survey Maps from the GeoHive website are very similar to the Griffiths maps, and I can show you the approximate location of Malachy Shanahan’s property in Mellisson on one of these maps.

    Go to the GeoHive link at: http://bit.ly/2Tf7B0y

    In the center of the map you’ll see the initials, “osi,” which stand for Ordnance Survey Irleand. Malachy’s lease would have been in the approximate location where you see osi on the map for Mellisson. This property would have been just south of the Mellisson Castle, which you can view on another Ordnance Survey Map of Mellission at: http://bit.ly/3cB8EQf

    Griffiths Valuation also shows that the Immediate Lessor before Malachy Shanrahan was Richard Hanrahan, who leased a house and over 7 acres of land from William Sherman Esquire, who was probably the actual owner of the property. The land was valued at 3 Pounds, while the house was valued at 5 Shillings, for a total valuation of 3 Pounds and 5 Shillings.

    If you recall Malachy had married Judy Hanrahan, who was likely related to Richard.

    See the Griffiths Valuation entry for Richard Hanrahan below:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 12 A B a
    Civil Parish: Buolic
    Townland: Mellisson
    Occupier: Richard Hanrahan
    Immediate Lessor: William Sherman Esquire
    Description of Tenement: House and land
    Area of Land: 7 Acres, 0 Roods, 14 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 3 Pounds
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 5 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 3 Pounds, 5 Shillings
    ____

    Richard Hanrahan’s property would have adjoined Malachy’ property just to the southeast on the Ordnance Survey Map.

    In addition, at map reference 5 in Mellisson an Occupier named James Morriss is shown to lease a house, offices and over 61 acres of land from an Immediate Lessor named Fennell Cook, Esquire, who may have owned the property that James Leased. The land was valued at 63 Pounds, and 15 Shilling, while the house and offices were valued at 4 Pounds, for a total valuation of 67 Pounds and 15 Shillings.

    An office in a Griffiths Valuation record could refer to outbuildings such as barns, stables, blacksmith shops, piggeries, etc.

    See the transcription below for the James Morriss lease in Mellisson in Griffiths Valuation

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 5
    Civil Parish: Buolick
    Townland: Mellisson
    Occupier: James Morriss
    Immediate Lessor: Fennell Cook, Esq.
    Description of Tenement: House, offices, and land
    Area of Land: 61 Acres, 0 Roods, 22 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 63 Pounds, 15 Shillings, 0 Pence
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 4 Pounds
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 67 Pounds, 15 Shillings
    ____

    James Morris’s house can been see in another Ordnance Survey Map of Mellisson located in the center at the screen at: http://bit.ly/2VLPsZO

    To the left of his house, past the fold of the map is Mellisson Castle.

    This James "Morriss" was likely related to your James Morris but I don’t have enough information to say what that relationship was.

    There are 12 attachments accompanying this reply. They are:

    Kelly and Morris 1904 marriage
    James Morris 1910 death
    Alice Morris 1920 death
    Bridget Morris 1864 birth
    Catherine Morris 1867 birth
    Patrick Morris 1870 birth
    John Morris 1872 birth
    William Morris 1875 birth
    Maria and Anastatia 1877 births
    James Morris 1880 birth
    Patrick Morris 1887 birth
    Morris and Heffernan 1909 marriage

    Best Wishes Barbara,

    Dave Boylan

    davepat

    Wednesday 4th March 2020, 10:38PM

    Attached Files

  • Wow, what a response you got Barbara from Dave Boylan (davepat). He is a genius, well done all. Regard Mark William Peterson

    Fetchitnow

    Thursday 5th March 2020, 07:23AM
  • Dear Dave, Thank you so very much for this tremendous piece of work! Thank you for taking the time ( including for the attachments).There is plenty of information for me in your reply. I'm going to need some time to sift through. I've already began looking at the Gournahoe parish microfilm online at the NLI website, as well as the civil registration records for Kilcooly. Yet since I'm only a novice in Irish genealogy( who can still become puzzled finding her way about in the parishes), your help is a Godsend. I've more practical experience doing genealogy in France ( where I've lived for many years) than in Ireland. I can find my way around quite well in the French parishes of my husband's genealogy. But when it comes to my ancestral Irish homelands, I'm still a bit lost. This will soon change!  See you online, Dave. Keep up the great work. Barbara

     

    B Carroll

    Friday 6th March 2020, 08:45AM
  •  Hello Mark William! 

    I hope that you get the information that you need for your Cavanagh line. You can try the microfilm for Gourtnahoe and the Natl Library of Ireland:  https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0266. You mentionned that Mary ? could have been from Thurles. You can try and check the Thurles microfilms:  https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0280 .

    I started looking in the registers in Gourtnahoe very recently. Some of the microfilms are easier to read than others. Don't hesitate to punch  the big + on the top to magnify the image. Wishing you success!

    Barbara

    B Carroll

    Friday 6th March 2020, 09:07AM
  • Ok thx Barbara

    Fetchitnow

    Saturday 7th March 2020, 11:37AM
  • Also could a Joseph be called John and could a Margaret be called Mary, back in 1840-1860s in Ireland? Thx Mark William Peterson

    Fetchitnow

    Saturday 7th March 2020, 12:24PM
  • You're welcome Barbara, and many thanks for the kind words.

    With Best Wishes,

    Dave

    davepat

    Sunday 8th March 2020, 02:48AM
  • Hi Davepat and Barbara. I have searched the database but couldn't find my Ellen Cavanagh born in Thurles, Tipperary, Ireland in 1839/40. What else can you suggest I do, thx Mark William Peterson

    Fetchitnow

    Sunday 5th April 2020, 01:23PM
  • Hi Barbara, I am Mary Collins, also great-great granddaughter of James Morris and Alice Shanahan. I am granddaughter of John Morris and Johanna Heffernan. I live in Derryvella and have a lot of information I would love to share with you. I am not familiar with sites like this - I was told of this conversation by a friend of mine earlier today. James and Alice had nine children, William, born 4 Aug 1875, died in childhood and Patrick, born 1 February 1870, died approximately 1882. I am not sure about uploading documents here but if you would like to email me at maryccollins52@gmail.com I would love to chat further. Note the two "c" s in my email address. By the way, the Derryville you have been referred to in map links in this forum is not correct.

     

     

     

     

    Mary

    Sunday 15th November 2020, 10:32PM
  • Hello Mary. Can you pinpoint the two Derryviles on a map, outlining which is the correct one, so that I in turn can make a correction to my correspondence of 3 March 2020, and apologize for the error. It will be very much appreciated.

    Thank you Mary.

    All the Best.

    Dave Boylan

    davepat

    Monday 16th November 2020, 08:38PM
  • Hello, Mary,

    Thank you so very much for your reply !! I've sent you a private mail. I just wanted to thank you and your friend who passed on the information. I'm looking forward to knowing you and learning about our family.

    I encourage everyone in the world who has Irish roots to publish a query on Irish reaching out. No matter how little you know, give it a try.

    Best of luck to all.

    Cordially,

    Barbara Carroll

    B Carroll

    Tuesday 17th November 2020, 09:12AM
  •  

    (52.6203962, -7.6746834) Hallo David, I'm not experienced at copying from maps but I think the coordinates (from Google Maps) at start of this message show the approximate location of the old Derryvella House. This is a townland of Glengoole, Thurles. The one you gave with the windmills is near Lisheen. There are several possible meanings of our Derryvella. My preference is for Doire Mhella, the little oak wood of St Mella.                                                                                                                        

    This is a marvelous forum I have just discovered and what a lovely surprise to hear from you Barbara. Looking forward to reconnecting with our American cousins.

    Thank you all, Mary

    Mary

    Wednesday 18th November 2020, 01:09AM
  • Thank for the correction and map coordinates Mary, and I sincerely apologize for any confusion I may have caused with the map locations in a previous communication. Thank you again.

    With Best Wishes,

    Dave

    davepat

    Thursday 19th November 2020, 03:43AM