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Might have found my great grandfather's parents, etc. Although family notes say my great grandfather, John Francis O'Shaughness was born in December in 1851,  I was told he might have really been born in 1945 seeing as the records of (his parents) Daniel O'Shaughnessy and Mary McGrath show childen Patrick, John, James and Katherine. He had brothers named Patrick and James and a sister Katherine. Supposedly another brother, name unknown, who went to Scotland. But that is n't noted. Cemetery records in Illinois of Patrick, Katherine and James all mention their father was named Daniel O'Shaughnessy and all but one listed their mother as Mary McGrath O'Shaughnessy.

Familiar to anyone?  Told the Daniel believed to have been my great grandfather lived in Downland Corgrig. Village of Foynes. 

Maureen Cosentino

Tuesday 5th May 2020, 08:16PM

Message Board Replies

  • Hello Maureen,

    I found the baptism transcriptions as well as copies of the original baptism records for four children of Daniel “Shaughnessy” and Mary McGrath, including the baptism for your John, who was indeed baptized in 1845. If you do not have these baptism records I can send them to you in a follow-up reply. I also found Daniel Shaughnessy in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation. I can send this record to you as a transcription as well if you do not already have it.

    Once I hear back from I’ll start compiling the records mentioned above and send them to you as soon as possible.

    Best Wishes,

    Dave

    Friday 8th May 2020, 12:25PM
  • Thank you. My address is 1109 Plym Road, Niles, MI 49120. Let me know what I owe you for postage.  Sad this year for all. We, 4 of my kids, spouses of 3 and I had planned to leave Chicago on May 11 for Ireland.  Hope you and all are well.  

    Friday 8th May 2020, 09:22PM
  • Hi Maureen,

    Many thanks for your reply.

    I won't have to mail you the information, but will send everything through this message board. I don't know how long it will be before I get back to you, as I'm going to find as much information as possible about your your Shaughnessy and McGrath ancestors.

    If I have any questions I'll write back sooner.

    Did you cancel and reschedule your trip to Ireland?

    I found that May and September are two of the best months to travel to Ireland from the states--May because the tourist season hasn't started yet and the hotels, B&Bs, and the roads aren't crowded with students and tourists, and September for the same reasons, except that the major tourist season has ended, especially after everyone goes back to school in late August or or early September.

    With Kind Regards,

    Dave

    Saturday 9th May 2020, 06:01PM
  • I did cancel our trip. The O'Shaughnessy society rally has been rescheduled for May of next year. I haven't rescheuled yet.  The wonderful woman who found me local drivers said they were closed and so where hotels. And hope all that had planned to go wiht me will be able to do so next year. I will be 87 in December and  my hip/spine issues aren't getting younger. One son has Parkinson's so we will see. Thanks again.

     

    Stay well. 

     

    p.s. Can I ask where you are from?

    Sunday 10th May 2020, 09:34PM
  • Hello Maureen,

    That really is very unfortunate that you had to cancel your trip. Isn't there anyone in your family that will drive if you go to the reunion next May? From what I understand drivers can be very expensive in Ireland.

    I am from Connecticut. I've been involved with Irish and American genealogical research for over 30 years and began when there were no records online, and basically there was no internet the way we have the internet today. Most of the research I did was through writing letters to parish priests in ireland looking for baptism and marriage records, and through scouring microfilms at my local Family History Center. I spent hours over a 10 year period in the Family History Center, and went nights, weekends, and after work, basically, anytime the family History Center was open.

    My Irish ancestors are from Cavan, Kerry, Limerick, and Roscommon. My Limerick ancestors are from Ballybricken North, about 12 miles south of Limerick City.

    I've been fortunate enough to be able to drive every time I've visited Ireland, which has been quite often to visit relatives and friends in County Tipperary and in Bruff, Limerick , but I haven't been back lately. Gasoline, which the Irish call Petrol, is very expensive in Ireland compared to the U.S. I found the best way to keep expenses down was to rent a standard shift car, when available, and to stay at farmhouse B&Bs, or rent a farmhouse for a week or two. I don't believe I've ever stayed in a hotel in Ireland.

    I am making very good progress on the O'Shaughnessy genealogy, though as you'll see in the forthcoming communication, the name in the records I found is spelled "Shaughnessy."

    In the information I'll be sending you, you'll see included lots of maps, both modern, and maps from the time period when your Shaughnessy ancestors lived in Limerick. If your driver is not familiar with the townlands of Corgrig and Foynes, in relation to Shanagolden, perhaps the modern maps will help to find these places.

    Hopefully, I'll be able to get all this information to you in the next day or two.

    Thank you for writing Maureen. I'll be in touch soon.

    With Very Best Wishes,

    Dave

    Monday 11th May 2020, 04:19AM
  • Hello again Maureen,

    I initially located the Shanagolden, Limerick Catholic baptism transcriptions for four children of Daniel “Shaughnessy” and Mary McGrath at the Find My Past (FMP) website. FMP for the most part is a subscription based website, with the exception that the site does not charge to search Catholic Church baptism, marriage, and burial/death records for the 32 counties of Ireland. Many of the Catholic Church parish records are for the 19th century, but some are available back to the 18th and in some cases, 17th centuries.

    The names and years of baptisms for the four Shaughnessy children are below. Their first names are in Latin:

    Ellenam, 1840
    Patricium, 1843
    Johannem (John), 1845
    Catharinam, 1849
    ____

    Attached to each of the FMP baptism transcriptions are links that will take you to copies of the original Shanagolden Catholic Church parish registers where each of the Shaughnessy baptisms can be found. These baptism registers are held by the National Library of Ireland in Dublin and are free to search as well.

    ELLENAM SHAUGHNESSY

    The baptism for Ellen took place in the Shanagolden Catholic Parish on 26 May 1840. You’ll see in the FMP record that her mother Mariae’s maiden name was transcribed as “Mogut,” rather than McGrath. This is because of the handwriting in the baptism register where a copy of her original baptism can be found. Ellen’s father Daniel’s first name is in Latin and is recorded as, “Danielis.”

    See the transcription at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4773535

    To access a copy of Ellen’s original baptism record, go to the National Library of Ireland link at:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634932#page/57/mode/1up

    You will see two facing pages of the baptism register. Ellen’s baptism is the last entry at the bottom of the left-hand page. You can enlarge the baptism register by means of round icons in the upper center/ right of the screen. The icons are white with green backgrounds. You can also access the full-screen function by clicking on the last icon on the right with the two arrows pointing northeast and southwest.

    Once you enlarge the register you can see why the FMP transcriber though that Mary’s maiden name was “Mogut.” But if you look closely enough, you’ll see her maiden name is alternately spelled as “Magrath,” rather than McGrath.

    I could not make out the first or last name of Ellen’s godfather, but her godmother is Honora Magrath, who was likely Mary’s sister. The priest who baptized Ellen was T. Blake.

    PATRICIUM SHAUGHNESSY

    Patrick was baptism on 27 February 1843. You can view his FMP baptism transcription at:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5979329

    The baptism register where Patrick’s baptism can be found can be accessed at the following National Library of Ireland link: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634933#page/9/mode/1up

    Patrick’s baptism is on the right-hand page. The days in February are clearly marked in the left margin for each baptism. Two baptisms took place on February 27. Patrick’s is the 2nd baptism recorded on the 27th. His godfather is Patrick McCarthy. The first name of his godmother is Margarita, but I couldn’t make out what her last name was.

    JOHANNEM SHAUGHNESSY

    John Shaughnessy was baptized on 30 December 1845, according to his FMP transcription at:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5979432

    A copy of his original baptism record is on the right-hand page, 2nd entry down from the top at:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634933#page/32/mode/1up

    John’s godfather is Daniel Culhane. His godmother is Maria Ryan. The priest who baptized John was M. O’Clary.

    CATHARINAM SHAUGHNESSY

    The transcriber for FMP wrote that Catherine Shaughnessy’s baptism took place on 25 March 1849. See:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4452443

    I looked for Catherine’s baptism in a copy of the Shanagolden registers for March of 1849 several times but didn’t find it. It took a while before I discovered that she was actually baptized on 25 May 1849. Like those first names in the baptism records, months are also recorded in the Latin. The month of May in Latin is, “Maii.”

    I really can’t fault transcribers for errors such as this as some may not be familiar with how Latin personal names and names of the months are spelled.

    Catherine’s baptism is on the right-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634933#page/57/mode/1up

    The days of the month are clearly and boldly marked in the left margin of the right-hand page of the register. Scroll down to the number 25 and you’ll arrive at the baptism for Catherine. Just after the name of Catherine’s mother, Maria McGrath, is the name of the town where the family had been living. This is Corgrigg. which is the town you have for the residence of your O’Shaughnessy ancestors.

    Catherine’s godfather was Jacobi Flynn. Jacobi is the Latin for James. The first name of Catherine’s godmother is Brigida (Bridget). Her last name is Culhane. The Shanagolden Catholic priest who baptized Catherine was M. Collins.

    Your information shows that Daniel and Mary had children named Patrick, John, James, and Kathrine, as well as another brother, name unknown, who went to Scotland. I didn’t find the baptism for this brother or for James in the Shanagolden Catholic parish registers.

    I looked for James’s baptism at the FMP website, not only in Shanagolden, but in other Limerick Catholic parishes, but without success. I then expanded the search to counties surrounding Limerick, and found one baptism at FMP for a Jas (James) “Shaugnessy,” son of Daniel Shaugnessy and Mary McGrath. James was baptized in the Youghal Arra (Youghlarra) Catholic Parish on 7 December 1851. His mother’s maiden name is spelled, “Magrath.” See the FMP transcription at the following: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4280800

    James’s baptism is the 6th entry down the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634645#page/14/mode/1up

    The godparents are Daniel Brien and Johanna O’Shaugnessy.

    A Google Map shows that Youghalarra, by the shortest modern day route is 47.1 miles northeast of Corgrig:
    https://is.gd/METlSg

    Youghalarra is just south of Lough Derg.

    Maureen, had you found any information in your research that your O’Shaughnessy ancestors had ever lived in County Tipperary?

    I can’t say for sure if the James Shaugnessy baptized in Youghal Arra, Tipperary was the son of your Daniel and Mary, but it is possible he was. His baptism fits in with the chronology of the baptisms of the other Shaughnessy children. Below is the order of baptisms for the Shaughnessy children, which you saw earlier, only in this case, James’s baptism is added to the names of the children:

    Ellenam, 1840
    Patricium, 1843
    Johannem (John), 1845
    Catharinam, 1849
    Jas, 1851
    ____

    I next looked for the marriage record for Daniel O’Shaughnessy and Mary McGrath but didn’t find it in the Shanagolden church registers. According to the National Library of Ireland, the Shanagolden marriages are available from 1824 to 1877, though I have found there are gaps in these registers for the 1830s. Daniel and Mary were likely married sometime in the 1830s, as their daughter Ellen was baptized on 26 May 1840.

    The Shanagolden baptism also are available from the year 1824. Go to the following National Library of Ireland link at see the availability of the Shanagolden Parish registers, and for a map of the Shanagolden and surrounding Catholic parishes in County Limerick: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0866

    In going through the Shanagolden marriages from 1835 to 1839, I found that:

    Marriages are available for all of 1835 except for the month of December.
    Marriages for the months of September and December are missing for the year 1836
    Marriages for the month of March are missing for the year 1837
    Marriages for the months of March and April are missing for the year 1838.
    Marriages for the months of March and December are missing for the year 1839.

    The Shanagolden marriages for March in the years 1837-1838-1839 are missing, and so I’m wondering if any marriages had actually taken place in the Shanagolden Parish for those three years at all, or if the marriages had been postponed due to Lent.

    Your records show that the family of Daniel and Mary O’Shaughnessy had lived in the townland of Corgrig, Village of Foynes, County Tipperary. Corgrig, Foynes in the 19th century was located in the Civil Parish of Robertstown.

    I found Daniel Shaughnessy leasing property in Corgrig, Foynes Village, in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation. Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for Corgrig, Foynes and surrounding townlands was completed by the year 1852.

    Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent on Gale Day for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

    You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the askaboutireland website link at:
    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

    Below is the Griffiths Valuation transcription for Daniel Shaughnessey in Corgrig, Foynes from the askaboutireland website.

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 6 f
    Civil Parish: Robertstown
    Townland: Corgrig, Foynes, Village of
    Occupier: Daniel Shaughnessy
    Immediate Lessor: Gerald Griffin
    Description of Tenement: House
    Area of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 11 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 11 Shillings
    ____

    Griffiths Valuation shows that Daniel leased a house, but no land in Corgrig, Foynes from an Immediate Lessor by the name of Gerald Griffin. The house was valued at 11 Shillings. Daniel would not have been required to pay a tax on this lease as only those leases valued over 5 Pounds were subject to the tax.

    I also found a Daniel Shaughnessy recorded two more time in Griffiths Valuation, both times in the Civil Parish of Shanagolden.

    The first of these Griffith Valuation entries shows that Daniel was leasing a house in the townland of Ballynash (Bishop) from an Immediate Lessor named Milo McMahon. The house was valued at 6 Shillings. See the Griffiths valuation transcription for Daniel below:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 5 e
    Civil Parish: Shanagolden
    Townland: Ballynash (Bishop)
    Occupier: Daniel Shaughnessy
    Immediate Lessor: Milo McMahon
    Description of Tenement: House
    Area of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 6 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 6 Shillings
    ____

    A Daniel Shaughnessy also leased property in a section of the Shanagolden Civil parish known as the “Fisheries in Tideway,” which were situated along the tideways of the River Shannon, and which flowed just north of Floynes and Corgrig. Daniel’s lease included Limerick Point and the Salmon Weir. The Immediate Lessor was James Browne. This lease was valued at 7 Pounds, which was a lot of money in 1850s Ireland. See the transcription below:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map:
    Civil Parish: Shanagolden
    Townland: Fisheries in Tideway
    Occupier: Daniel Shaughnessy
    Immediate Lessor: James Browne
    Description of Tenement: Limerick Point. Shannon Weir
    Area of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: -
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: - Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 7 Pounds
    ____

    Daniel Shaughnessy would have paid a percentage of the 7 Pounds toward the tax.

    I suspect that all three entries for Daniel Shaughnessy in Griffiths Valuation pertain to the same person. Daniel would have leased one of the houses for himself and his family, while he leased the other house for a family member or perhaps a friend. If one of the houses was leased for a family member or friend, Daniel’s name would have been recorded as the Immediate Lessor because he paid for the lease, even though he didn’t live in the house. Only those who paid for the lease were recorded in Griffiths Valuation.

    I don’t know why Daniel would have leased Limerick Point and the Shannon Weir.

    A Google Map shows that Ballynash (Bishop) is just 2.4 miles northwest of Shanagolden:
    https://is.gd/cnrxNo

    For a Google Street View near Ballynash (Bishop), see: https://is.gd/MoYgiG

    For a Google Map of Corgrigg, Shanagolden, and Ballynash (Bishop), see: https://is.gd/YgE3uU

    To view Ballynash (Bishop) on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period, go to the GeoHive website link at: https://bit.ly/2Lj1gwc

    One of the observations I’d like to make about Daniel Shaughnessy leasing houses in Corgrig, Foynes, and Ballynash (Bishop), is that the leases did not include any land at all, which is an indication that he was not a farmer, as the majority of people recorded in Griffiths Valuation in the 32 counties of Ireland were.

    This means he may have been employed as a general labourer or had an occupation in one of the trades, such as blacksmith, farrier, cordwainer, stone mason, wheelwright, etc. Or, perhaps he owned a business.

    I next looked for any Occupiers named McGrath in Griffiths Valuation leasing property in Shanagolden, Corgrig, Foynes, and Ballynash (Bishop), but found none.

    I also looked for the death records of Daniel and Mary Shaughnessy at the free irishgenealogy.ie website. This website has death indexes from 1864 to 1877, and copies of original death records from 1878 to 1969. I didn’t find death record or death index for Daniel, but did locate a death index for a Mary Shaughnessy whose death was recorded in the Glin Registration District in the 3rd quarter of 1864. At the time of death Mary was 53 years old, placing her year of birth circa 1811. See the index below:

    Name MARY SHAUGHNESSY
    Date of Death 1864
    Group Registration ID N/R
    SR District/Reg Area Glin
    Deceased Age at Death 53
    Returns Year 1864
    Returns Quarter 3
    Returns Volume No 15
    Returns Page No 158

    Source Information: irishgenenalogy.ie.
    ____

    You would have to order Mary’s death record from the General Register Office (GRO) in Roscommon Town, County Roscommon, to see where Mary died, and to also learn the cause of death and who reported her death to the local registrar in the Glin Registration District. The Glin Registration District is the district that recorded civil registration births, marriages, and death for the Shanagolden/Foynes/Corgrig areas for County Limerick.

    It’s possible that one of her children reported her death to the local registrar.

    At age 53 in 1864 when she died, Mary would have been born circa 1811. If this death index pertains to your Mary McGrath, she would have been in her 20s if she had married Daniel Shaughnessy anytime from 1831 to 1839. She would have been 30 years old when her daughter Ellen Shaughnessy was born and baptized in Shanagolden in 1840.

    If Mary died in Corgrig, Foynes, or Ballynash (Bishop) for instance, she may likely be your ancestor. If you would like to order her death record, please let me know and I can send you instructions on how to do so. Photocopies of original birth, marriage, and death records from the GRO are 4 Euros, which at today’s currency rates, equals $4.33 U.S.

    There is no guarantee however, that the Mary Shaughnessy in the above index is your ancestor.

    As an example of what a death record looks like, I’ve attached a copy of a Glin Registration District death record for a Kate Shaughnessy, who may have been related to Daniel through marriage, as she was a widow when she died at age 80 on 13 April 1885. Her place of death was Corgrigg. She is shown to have been the widow of a “Labourer.” The cause of death was, “Senile decay year Certified. No med att,” which means she had senile decay for 1 year, and had no medical attention during that time period. The person who reported her death to the local registrar was Michael Corbett, though the death record does not say how Michael knew her. He could have been a friend or a family member. The registrar, whose name is “Cons” (Cornelius) Nolan, recorded Kate’s death in the Glin Registration District on 16 May 1885

    Kate’s death record is the first entry in the attached Glin death register.

    Maureen, I sincerely hope you can make the trip to Ireland in the near future, whether it is attending a society rally or on your own with family or friends. I think you will find it thrilling to travel the roads your ancestors were familiar with in and around the Shanagolden area all those many years ago.

    Please don’t hesitate to write with any questions about the above information or about traveling in Ireland.

    All the Best,

    Dave

    Monday 11th May 2020, 02:20PM

    Attached Files

  • Good morning. Working my way through this. Confusing as there is no mention of a sibling, a brother, who immigrated to Scotland.  Need to go through all. to see if this is actually my great grandfather's parents (Danial and Mary McGrath). Names if Patrick, John, Catherine or Katherine, and James would be accurate but birthdates are off.  Will take a lot of time to go through all this. Thank you so much for all your help; must have taken you some time.   I looked up O'Shaugnessy in Tipperary. Seems more in Cork and Limerick areas.    Maureen

     

    Wednesday 13th May 2020, 12:57PM
  • You're welcome Maureen, and best of luck with your research.

    Dave

    Wednesday 13th May 2020, 04:10PM
  • You're welcome Maureen, and best of luck with your research.

    Dave

    Wednesday 13th May 2020, 04:10PM
  • Have you found in your research that birthdates given (family notes) can be different than baptism records showing birth dates.  Just don't understand why a man nor a woman would say they ere older than they were unless it had to do with enlistment, etc. If my greatgranfather was really born in 1945, not 1951, and came here (possibly) in 1973, why would he say he was 28 instead of 22 when 22 was old enough to come to the US? 

    He married a Mary McCarthy, daughter of Dennis McCarthy and Ellen Abrose. Records are so odd. One family note said he met her in Sprngfield, another note says they were living in Chicago where all my graeat grandather and siblings all lived as adults.  Mary was 4 in 1860 census so was most likely born in 1856. If John Francis was born in 1845, that would make him 11 years older than her. Which all make me wonder if my greatgrandfather is the son of Daniel O'Shaughness and Mary McGrath. Augh.

    Monday 18th May 2020, 10:12PM
  • Hello Maureen,

    I find different ages for the same individual that do not match all the time in Irish as well as American records. I don't think our ancestors born in Ireland put much importance on birthdays the way we do today. I also don't think many of our Irish ancestors knew the exact dates of their births, especially those ancestors born before and for several years of the Great Famine of 1845 to 1851. They were more worried about putting food on the table than celebrating birthdays.

    Also, I would say that a lot of young children lost their fathers and mothers during the famine, and were too young to know when they were born, and would not know their birthdays when they got older.

    The 1901 and 1911 Irish census returns are notorious for having the incorrect ages of people. I've seen census returns where in the 1901 the person was 35 years old, but in the 1911 census the same person was 50, or even 60 years old.

    Then too a lot of the ancestors from 19th century Ireland were illiterate and couldn't write down things like their birthdays or their children's birthdays, and they may not have thought of doing so in the first place. Their Famine and post-Famine world must have been a nightmare, and that's why so many left for Britain, the U.S. Canada, and Australia. A lot of them never talked about Ireland once they arrived in their new homes. It must have been painful to do so. Dates of birth were probably the farthest from their minds.

    Even some holidays that we celebrate today were not important to the ancestors. I have a great grandmother from Ballybrcken North, County Limerick, who signed the deed to a piece of land she purchased on December 25, 1876, Christmas Day. I don't think too many deed transfers are completed and signed on Christmas day anymore.

    Just a couple of days ago I was doing some research for a friend whose Uncle Joseph Cooney signed up with the draft registration board in Massachusetts in World War I. On his draft registration form, he said he was born on July 1, 1891. But, I found a copy of his original town birth record which shows he was actually born on May 31. 1890. He was off with his age on the draft registration form by a year.

    And so, it is not unusual to find a person's age does not match between records. I think this may be the case for many people searching their Irish ancestry.

    Kind Regards Maureen,

    Dave

    Wednesday 20th May 2020, 04:36PM