A puzzle between parish baptism records and civil registration birth records

Hello Carolyn,

After downloading the 1867 birth record for Ellen that you attached to your Ireland Reaching Out message, I accessed the civil registration birth records for the other six Coakley children, Honora (1866); Jeremiah (1868); Mary (1871); Catherine (1873); Patrick (1875); and Margaret (1877). 

The object of this was to see who the informant was that reported the births to the local Skibbereen registrar of births, marriages, and deaths. The 1866 birth transcription you provided for Ellen, shows that Mary Crowley reported the birth to the registrar. 

For the 1866 birth record of Honora, it looks like a woman whose name appears to be Mary McWhorley reported the birth, but her last name is hard to decipher exactly. Her last name may possibly be Crowley, as a Mary Crowley reported the births of Ellen in 1867, and as you'll see, for Jeremiah in 1868. See Honora in the birth register, number 427:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

For Jeremiah's 1868 birth record, see: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

His birth is number 146 in the register. 

For the birth of Mary in 1871, her mother, Mary Brien Coakley, reported the birth. Mary's birth is number 234 in the register: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

For the birth of Catherine in 1873, Mary McCarthy reported that the maiden name of the child's mother was "Manning," rather than Mangan/Mongan etc. Catherine's birth is number 356 in the register: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

In Patrick's 1875 birth record, his mother Mary Brien Coakley reported the birth. Patrick's birth is number 353 in the register: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

For the 1877 birth of Margaret, a Catherine Coakley reported the birth. Catherine could have been Patrick Coakley's mother, or sister, or perhaps the wife of his brother. Margaret's birth is number 265 in the register: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

Mary McWhorley, who may have been Mary Crowley, and Mary McCarthy would likely have been midwives who helped deliver four of the Coakley children. 

If you notice, anytime a person other than a Coakley reported a birth to the registrar, the maiden name for the child's mother was Mangan/Mongan, and in one birth record, Manning, whereas if the child's mother, Mary Brien Coakley reported the birth, or if a Coakley relative, such as Catherine Coakley, reported the birth, Mary's maiden name was reported correctly as Brien to the Skibbereen registrar.

Why the name Mangan, Mongan or Manning was reported as Mary's maiden name, rather than Brien, can be left up to conjecture: 

Didn't the midwives know that Mary Coakley's maiden name was Brien?  

The surnames Manning and Mangan are related, according to information from Ancestry.com's "Mangan Family History," go to the following links for more information about the surnames Manning and Mangan: https://tinyurl.com/5n93jkb6 and https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=mangan

As you saw in the "Mangan Family History," the Mangan name in Irish is Ó Mongáin, a descendant of Mongán, "a byname for someone with a luxuriant head of hair." 

A Wikipedia article also notes that the Mongan surname means "long haired." See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongan_(surname)

Also see genealogist John Grenham's website link explaining that the Mongan surname is synonymous with Mangan: https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Mongan

The website, crestsandarms.com associates the surname Manning with long-haired descendants. See: https://crestsandarms.com/pages/manning-family-crest-coat-of-arms

Could the midwives have reported Mary's maiden name of Mangan, Mongan and Manning because she had long hair? 

If so, it indicates the midwives would have known each other, and would have been aware of the history of the surnames Mangan, Mongan, and Manning. 

The above scenario sounds a little far-fetched, but I wanted you to be aware of the history of the surname Mangan and its variant spellings. 

The midwive's reporting to the Skibbereen registrars that Mary Coakley's maiden name was Mangan, Mongan, and Manning, may have had nothing to do with Mary's hair. Do you have any photos of Mary Brien Coakley?

There may be other explanations for why Mary's maiden name was recorded as Mangan, Mongan, or Manning in four of the birth records. After 150 years however, why the maiden name of Mary Coakley was differently in the four civil registration birth records, may never be known with complete certainty. 

With Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan
 

Hi Dave,

Thank you so much for your reply! I think that you are spot on with your answer...but how odd that a non family members report a different maiden name for the mother so many times! I do not have a picture of her, so have no idea about her hair length. Your insight into looking at who reported her births was very interesting, and has confirmed my suspicions that her correct surname was Brien and not Mangan, etc...I did see that one "Manning" spelling, and just thought it was a variation of Mangan or perhaps the person reporting the birth, and the person recording the birth had a communication problem. So, thanks for that bit of history of the surname!

I really enjoy reading your replies to the queries on this forum as you provide so much detailed information above and beyond what the person is asking. I have learned a great deal from reading your replies. Are you a professional genealogist? Anyhow, thanks again...now I can move forward with the Brien surname with confidence.

Gratefully, 

You're welcome Carolyn, and many thanks for your reply and kind words. They are very much appreciated. 

I 'm not a professional genealogist, but like to assist those who are looking for information about their Irish ancestors.

The four birth records of the Coakley children whose mother's maiden name was reported as Mangan/Mangon, and Manning was something I hadn't seen before in civil registration birth records, especially when the baptism records of the same children show their mother was Mary Brien. As you had astutely written, it is a "puzzle," even knowing the history of the Mangan and related surnames pointing to ancestors with "luxuriant" or "long" hair. There could be other explanations that we're just not aware of this far away in time from the birth records. 

Like your research, all the information I found about Mary Coakley points to her maiden name being Brien, rather than Mangan and related surnames. 

I'll keep on doing some more digging, and if I find any additional information that pertains to your Coakley and Brien ancestors, I'll send another reply within the next week or two.  

Again, thank you for your reply Carolyn. 

All the Best,

Dave
 

Hello Carolyn,

Based on the information in your message to Ireland Reaching Out on 28 October 2024, I accessed a copy of the original civil registration marriage record for Patrick Coakley and Mary Brien at the free irishgenealogy.ie website.

I’d like to go over the marriage record with you, as I found information based on the marriage record that you may or may not have. So you don’t have to go digging for the marriage record in your files, you can access it at the link coming up, after following the prompts: 
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

The handwriting in places can be a little dicey to read, but Patrick and Mary were married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of Drimoleague, in the Registrar’s District of Drinagh. In some records Drimoleague is spelled, “Dromdaleague,” as you’ll see a little later.

At the time of marriage Patrick was living in Dromore, “Cahara,” which is a reference to the townland of Caheragh in the Civil Parish and Catholic Parish of Caheragh. 

Patrick’s father was Jeremiah Coakley, a “Farmer” who was “dead.”

At the time of marriage Mary Brien was living in the townland of North Driminidy, also called Driminidy North. Her father is James Brien, a “Farmer.”

The priest who married Patrick and Mary was John D. Creedon PP The initials PP stand for Parish Priest.

The witnesses to the marriage were Timothy Coakley and Denis Mahony. Timothy signed the marriage register with “his x mark,” witnessed by the parish priest, JDC.

Patrick Coakley also signed the marriage register with “his x mark,” and Mary Brien with “her x mark.” Singing a legal document with an x means the person could not write.

Three primary locations are mentioned in the marriage record. These are Drimoleague, where Patrick and Mary were married; “Cahara,” where Patrick was living at the time he married, and North Driminidy, where Mary was living at the time of marriage. 

North Driminidy was in the civil parish of Drinagh.

I looked for these locations on a modern Google Map, and found them. 

The Google Map shows the location of the All Saints Catholic Church in Drimoleague, and to the west, the townland of Caharagh. To the southeast of the church is the townland of Driminidy North. See: https://tinyurl.com/3aacjpp5

I also obtained a Google Street View of all three locations. The street view for the All Saints Catholic Church in Drimoleague shows it would not be the church structure where Parick and Mary were married, as it looks like it was constructed sometime in the 20th century. See: https://tinyurl.com/3ud684nu

Information from the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website for All Saints Church in Drimoleague shows the church was constructed in 1954, replacing a “T-plan Roman Catholic Church.” See the subheading “Appraisal” at: 
https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/20837003/al…

Attached to this reply is an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1829 to 1841 time period of “Dromdaleague,” which is an alternate name for Drimoleague. The T-plan R.C. Chapel is located in the center of the map. This is the church where Patrick and Mary were married in 1865. 

The map is from the Tailte Éireann website.

Next is the Google Street View of Dromore, looking east toward the Church of Mary Immaculate: https://tinyurl.com/yemtudum

This Google Street View is of Driminidy North: https://tinyurl.com/y7p4xkx2

Even with knowing the names of their fathers from the marriage record, I wouldn’t be able to prove Patrick and Mary’s baptisms, as I don’t know the first and maiden names of their mothers. 

Any baptism records I located for a Patrick Coakley and a Mary Brien, would only be guesswork on my part.

There won’t be civil registration birth record for them either, as births were not recorded by the Irish government until 1864.

I suspect Patrick and Mary were born sometime before the Great Irish Famine of 1845 to 1851. Their marriage record shows both were of “full age,” meaning age 21 years or older, which indicates they would have been born prior to 1845. 

Historians estimate that 1 million people emigrated from Ireland during the famine, and that another 1 million people died of hunger and disease. The devastating effects of the famine were felt right into the 20th century.

In the Irish language, the famine is called, “An Gorta Mór.” 

For a comprehensive description of the famine, see the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

GRIFFITHS VALUATION

I next wanted to see if I could locate Patrick and Mary’s fathers, Jeremiah Coakley and James Brien in an Irish property tax record called Griffiths Valuation, in either the Civil Parish of Caheragh, and townland of Dromore, where Patrick was living in 1865, or the Civil parish of Drinagh, where Drimindy North was located, and where Mary Brien was living at the time of marriage. 

Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for townlands in the civil parishes of Caheragh and Drinagh  was completed by the year 1855. 

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.” 

You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the Ask About Ireland, Griffiths Valuation website link at: 
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

James Brien was not recorded in Drimindy North, in Griffiths Valuation.

But I found two entries for a Jeremiah Coakley in two different townlands in the Civil Parish of Caheragh.

One Jeremiah was living in the townland of Dromore, where Patrick was living when he married Mary Brien in 1865. Dromore was also the townland where Patrick Coakley and Mary Brien’s children were born, beginning with the birth of Honora in 1866.

The other Jeremiah Coakley was living in Lissane Lower. Could these two Griffiths Valuation entries refer to the same Jeremiah Coakley? I don’t know. 

Through Caheragh Catholic baptism transcriptions at Find My Past, I learned that Jeremiah Coakley in Lissane Lower was married to Catherine Reagan/Regan, as I uncovered the Caheragh Catholic Parish baptisms for nine of their children from the Church Records Collection at the free irishgenealogy.ie website. 

I’ll have more information on Jeremiah Coakley in Lissane Lower coming up shortly.
 
For the Jeremiah “Coakly” in Dromore, Griffiths Valuation shows he leased over 124 acres of mountain land in common with five other Occupiers in the townland. The other five Occupiers were Thomas McCarthy, Timothy Coakly, Timothy Brien, Margaret Driscoll, and Tim Donovan Jr.

They leased the mountain land from an Immediate Lessor named Daniel Whelply.

Griffiths Valuation for Dromore is attached to this reply.

The mountain bogland was valued at 10 Shillings for each of the six Occupiers. However, they were not required to pay a tax on this land, as only those leases valued over 5 Pounds were subject to the tax.

Timothy Coakly would have been related to Jeremiah, perhaps a brother or cousin. Timothy Brien may have been related to Mary Brien, whose father was James.

To the left of the Occupiers, in the margin of the Griffiths Valuation page, you’ll see the number 1. This is a map reference number showing the location of the mountain land in Dromore on a Griffiths Valuation Map. 

At map reference 2 a, you’ll see that Jeremiah Coakly was the Immediate Lessor for an “Unoccupied” house. He would have been the middleman looking after the house for the owner. This empty house was valued at 5 Shillings.

The question I have is, could this “unoccupied” house in Dromore be the future home for Patrick Coakley, his wife Mary Brien, and the birthplace  of their children? 

At map reference 3 you’ll see Michael Coakly, and at map references 4 and 5, Timothy Coakly. Michael would have been related to Jeremiah and Timothy Coakly.

Attached is a Griffith Valuation Map, showing the location of map references 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, indicated by the green arrows.

Griffiths Valuation shows that Timothy Coakly and Michael Coakly each leased a house, offices, and additional parcels of land from Daniel Whelply in Dromore. An office in Griffiths valuation could refer to a barn, stable, blacksmith shop, piggery, etc.

However, Griffiths Valuation also shows that Jeremiah Cokley did not lease a house in Dromore, only that he was the middleman for an “unoccupied” house. This is an indication Jeremiah was living in the household of another person in Dromore, perhaps in the household of Timothy or Michael Coakly. Or, he may have lived in Lissane Lower in the mid-1850s. I don’t have enough information to determine if the Jeremiah recorded in Dromore, and the Jeremiah recorded in Lissane Lower, were one and the same person.

GRIFFITHS VALUATION AND JEREMIAH COAKLY IN LISSANE LOWER

Griffiths Valuation for Lissane Lower shows that a Jeremiah Coakley held two leases. One is for a house and over 10 acres of land at map reference 1A. The other is for over 13 acres of land at map reference 1B, subdivision a. He leased these properties from an Immediate Lessor named Samuel Levis. See the attachment.

The first parcel of land that Jeremiah leased was valued at 1 Pound and 15 Shillings. The house on this land was valued at 5 Shillings.

The second parcel of land was valued at 7 Pounds and 5 Shillings. The total valuation for both parcels of land and the house, was 9 Pounds and 5 Shillings. He would have paid a percentage of this amount toward the tax.

At map reference 5 you’ll see that a David Coakly leased 35 acres of bogland in common with three other occupiers. These were Humphrey Collins, Michael Collins, and Mary Barret. Samuel Levis was the Immediate Lessor.

David also leased a house, offices, and land from Samuel Levis at map reference 6. He and Jeremiah were probably related, perhaps brothers, or cousins?

See the attached Griffiths Valuation Map for Lissane Lower, showing the map locations for Jeremiah and David Coakly’s leaseholds.

On the map you’ll notice that map reference 1A, in western Lissane Lower, and map reference 1B, in the upper central part of the townland, were not contiguous properties, but separated by the holdings of other occupiers. 

It’s also interesting to note that a Google Map shows that Lissane Lower, by the shortest route, is only 1.3 miles west of Driminidy North, where Mary Brien was living when she and Patrick married in 1865. 

The location of Lissane Lower on a Google Map is represented by the red teardrop icon: https://tinyurl.com/5445jetn

Earlier, I had mentioned that I found the baptism records for nine children of Jeremiah Coakley and his wife Catherine Reagan at the irishgenenalogy.ie website. The baptisms show the family were living in Lissane or Lower Lissane, in the Catholic Parish of Caheragh.

These children, and years of baptism are:

David Cokely, 1828
Ellen Cokely, 1829
May Cokely, 1832
Jery Cokely, 1833
Denis Cokely, 1836
Twins John and James Coakley, 1838
Catherine Coakley, 1841
Biddy Coakley, 1844
---

The above are the only baptisms I found recorded in the Caheragh Catholic Parish, where the father’s first name is Jeremiah or Jerry. 

I didn’t find a baptism record for Patrick Coakley at the irishgenealogy.ie website. 

I can send you the nine baptism transcriptions of the Coakley children found at the irishgenealogy.ie website, as well as copies of their original baptism records from the National Library of Ireland, in a follow-up reply if you request them.

Sincerely,

Dave

SOURCES

irishgenealoy.ie
Google Maps
Google Street Views
National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland 
Tailte Éireann 
Wikipedia: Great Famine_(Ireland)
Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation 
National Library of Ireland: Catholic Parish Registers

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply! I have seen all those records that you refer to in my Coakley research. I believe that Patrick Coakley is a sibling to my 2nd great grandfather, Michael Coakley (1820-1880). I have ruled out the Lower Lissane Coakleys as we have an oral history of the Coakleys coming from Dromore, Caheragh, so that is the area I am focused on. I have been frustrated in trying to find baptism records for Michael and his possible siblings because the records begin in 1818 for the RC parish of Caheragh, but I cannot find any of them on irishgenealogy.ie. I don't know if you are on Ancestry, but my Coakley tree is there....in the works! My tree is called the Toohey Family tree (public). 

Thanks again for your help!

Carolyn Toohey

Hello Carolyn,

Thank you very much for your reply. I had been a subscriber to Ancestry.com for about 20 years, but I dropped the subscription this month because I don’t use it very much anymore.

I can see why it is frustrating not being able to find the baptism records for your 2nd great grandfather, Michael Coakley and his siblings. It looks like you have been doing a great deal of research into your Coakley ancestors, which means you probably already know that a Michael Coakley is recorded twice in the Tithe Applotment Books for Dromore in 1828, along with Tim Coakley and Tim Brien. 

If you do uncover any additional information about Michael and Patrick Coakley, and their siblings, please send an update through the Ireland Reaching Out message board.

Thank you again for your reply.

Dave