Quigley, Daniel J (b. 1839) and Patrick B (b. 1828), sons of John and Ellen

Hi Kevin,

The place is the townland of Lissenhall in Tipperary. More info here: https://www.townlands.ie/tipperary/upper-ormond/kilmore/carrigatogher/l…

Hi Patricia, thank you so much for the feedback. Lissenhall is such a small area. You would think it's an easy search but records seem sparse during the late 1700's and early 1800's. I was looking at the image in my attachment and wondering if it doesn't say "H. Ellen Brian" or H Ellen Brien. Or maybe the Ellen is something else. And, I can't read the bottom line of Daniel's entry.

The nationalarchives.ie search pre 1901 isn't very helpful with the census back then. Even 1851 is limited.

Any pointers on lining this up? Can I provide additional information that you think may be helpful. I have them both here in the U.S. with families, jobs, death dates and approximate birth dates. 

Thanks again!

Kevin Shea

Hi Kevin,

I believe it says his mother is [illegible] Ellen Brian. Brian/Brien/Bryan in records is often o'Brien as well.

Have you looked at Griffiths Valuation? Tithe Applotments? They might give you some info about who was in Lissenhall.

When you get into the 1700s, you're lucky if you find anything.

Good luck.

Thanks for the tips Patricia! I did find a Quigley in Lissenhall in Griffith's Valuation. No first name only Mrs. So I assume she was widowed by this time.

I have added screenshots of the GV data and a picture of the oldest map. Am I reading it correctly that the "Map reference" of "3" is the house location in the top left section of Lissenhall?

See attachments for what I found. It still doesn't help me identify her original original surname, assuming this is the Ellen Quigley I am looking for. But if correct, this is quite the find for sure!

I'm very interested in digging deeper to find if there were more children than Patrick Quigley and Daniel Quigley and if they had children.

Thanks,

Kevin

I could only do one attachment. Here is the map.

Kevin,

I am told (by someone that did the research prior to me) that I am related to the Quigley's of the 1800's from Greenpoint Brooklyn, one of them ran a Bar (even in the 1800's haha).

I could be mistaken, but I thought that your Patrick Quigley was the son of John Quigley and Johanna Quinn. They had 6-7 kids, all of which were in Kilcommon Parish near Baurnadomeeny.

The death certificate from 1904 will likely list the name of Daniel's parents. Maybe the 1872 death cert as well. 

Hi, didn't see your name there. I do believe there were at least 2 unrelated Quigley families in Greenpoint, believe it or not. The Patrick Quigley in this death cert is (from a genealogical perspective) the father of Ella Quigley, my great-grandmother from Greenpoint. Unfortunately, this cert does not have names of parents. But, he is buried in the same burial plot as his my great-grandmother and other family members. Are you on any sites doing dna? I'd be curious if we match at all.

Yes, I believe map reference 3 is the red 3 on the map.

Kevin,
I submitted to Ancestry (John Quigley joined 26 Nov 2023). I also uploaded my data (for free) to My Heritage and GEDmatch (KIT # PS2391773)

However, these websites only show you DNA matches that have the minimum required DNA in common (centimorgans or whatever). If we have a common ancestor, but that person (well husband & wife) is from 7+ generations back (i.e. 1700's) then it is possible that we won't "match" on their website. Or so I was told.

John, I just looked us up and we only have a very low match at 5.1cm to my 23andme kit and 6cm on my ancestry kit on gedmatch. My kit number is TF675233 (Ancestry kit) or DB3672236 (23andme kit). Based on what I see, it's more likely we are connected via my Cork family (O'Shea and O'Sullivan primarily). I looked at your gedcom tree and it doesn't really correlate to the Patrick B Quigley in my tree. I'm not saying your researcher is wrong. But I am saying I have a lot of information that ties Daniel J and Patrick B as brothers and that they were from Lissenhall, Tipperary just south of Nenagh. 

Even though not both of our great-great grandfathers, attached is an interesting article I found supposedly penned by Patrick from 1867. Now, my guess is his son James likely put these words down for him. Nevertheless, an interesting story :) The article is in 2 files

Kevin,

I should have clarified. The specific Quigley's listed in my tree are not the exact one's, or even 1st cousins per say, of your family. Generally speaking, I was told that the some of my Quigley cousins ended up in Greenpointe Brooklyn, which is why a few of my Quigley's would leave Westport and go to Brooklyn (and the Greenpoint area). In other words, family lore was that we were related to the Greenpoint Brooklyn Quigley's. However, my tree would not reflect any of that though. Also, I have no direct evidence.

As for Patrick and Daniel, it appears that I was incorrect as to their parents. I suppose it's possible that the family I mentioned were cousins of yours - who knows. Their location (Baurnadomeeny) looks to be 15 miles south of your location (Lissenhall). I will put in some effort to help you find the parents of your Daniel.

As for my specific paternal ancestry, we are from County Tipperary and County Clare. Nenagh is a place mentioned as well. The family tree that my son and I use is linked below.

As for our DNA connection, it sounds like you confirmed it! That is great haha. And how interesting, it might not even be through my paternal Quigley line.... But I will say that I am related to a TON of people via both my paternal and maternal lines. Or at the very least related through different branches within the same side of my tree. I didn't start realizing that until later. That could be possible for us as well. Our connection was likely 6-7 generations ago.

I looked at our GEDmatch connection. It appears, via the one-to-one tool, that we are matching within chromosome 8 and 15 (if I read it correctly).

You should upload your DNA data to My Heritage. There seems to be a ton more Irish on there. You can use the websites "chromosome browser one to many" with your matches. We won't match due to the 8 cM minimum, but we will likely have matches in common and can "triangulate" it from there. 

Patrick Quigley didn't joke around about his groceries. What was his middle name? B?

Tree: https://www.ancestry.com/invite-ui/accept?token=WRFE133sahOt1zkEYAwBaAh…

John, I did not see a link to your tree but here is mine which is public on Ancestry: 

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tree/171002614/family?cfpid=322222…

Now, as for Patrick B, I don't know his middle name. However, it was quite common for the men and women on that side of my family to use their middle initials which has been immensely helpful. The place he is referring to is his saloon and his article was in response to a previous article. A "groggery" would have been a negative term for a saloon, which he obviously took offense to.

Now, there are 2 Quigley families from Greenpoint and we are generationally unrelated. I know because I have chatted with another man who is a decendant but we can't connect the families. He claims to be from Tipperary as well. That said, the unfortunate part of it all is my Quigley family from Greenpoint has very few decendants. My great-grandmother Ella Quigley seems to be possibly the only child who still has living decendants. And she died the same day she gave birth to my grandmother, also named Ella.

Now, my heritage is complicated as hell haha! My Quigley side is paternal and Ella married Patrick Bryan from Kildare. The other paternal side is from Beara in West Cork where I have O'Shea and O'Sullivan family still there, some from early 1800s or before, living in the original homes! Here's the biggest twist, I have maternal O'Shea (yep my grandmother's maiden name) from Tipperary and Limerick. And Lane from Clonakilty. 

Enough of that now. I would love to connect with anyone who can help me on the Quigley side. I have a feeling there is an Aussie connection there now. But both my great-great-grandfather Patrick and Daniel must have been fascinating people based on my research. When you look at my tree, look at Patrick's son James F. Quigley. He was a mover and a shaker in Brooklyn at the time.

I am on myheritage but we may not match due to dna being low.

Kevin

Kevin, 2nd reply today...

Consider the possibility that the dad is John and the mom is Honora Ellen Bryan/Brien/Brian/Ryan. That opens up other options.

Secondly, your 1856 document is citing where he lived before he left Ireland or where he was born/baptised? Those two locations do not have to be the same place. For example, that town he is from is in Kilmore Parish which is right next to Nenagh Parish. Which church would they have gone to from their house location in Lissenhall? St. Mary's in Nenagh?

However, I found something: https://specialcollections.ul.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/P49_OCarrol…

1853- Print of an Encumbered Estates auction schedule which includes a description of Lot 1, Lissenhall, its tenants and rents. Tenants: Thomas Dagg, Edmond Morgan, Ellen Quigley widow of John Quigley, James Gleeson, John Kirwan and William Ryan. 

After 1853- Lissenhall: Ellen Quigley and Rody Carmody;

Eventually it appears Ellen Quigley shares tenancy with Roderick Carmody. I'm thinking either her brother, new husband, or potentially an ex-brother in law. There was a Rod Carmody that had children with a Mary Quigley and an Elizabeth O'Brien.

I think Ellen Quigley's maiden name was O'Brien or Carmody. You've submitted DNA. I would go to Ancestry or My Heritage and see where the O'Brien's and Carmody's you're related to connect back to in their various family trees. Maybe you'll have a bunch of O'Briens from County Tipp and can use their tree's to find out why. 

Look at this, Patrick Quigley's Bar re-opened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESokgl3Vldk

That can't be the same place, or was it then in 2013?? 8 Greenpoint Ave was the address and there now is a shop of sorts but right near where the ferry would have been and likely waterfront!

Now I'm curious about the video's location!

Ah, you are providing me wit clues now John. That's a great thing! But my wife will not be happy when I now fixate myself back into the matter! 😆

I believe Ellen's name is O'Brien. Of course that makes it even harder as Ellen's granddaughter, my great-grandmother married Patrick J Bryan from Kildare. I know much about the extended Bryan family from there. I was hoping to find a death record for John Quigley but I'm guessing he died during the hunger times and there probably not being a record.

Kevin,

I wonder why Patrick's wife, Liz Culley, named her daughter Ella? Maybe Patrick asked for Ellen and they settled on Ella. 

Ellen O'Brien-

My leader in the club house for her birth is Ellen Brien December 1794 in Nenagh. Father John Brien and Mother Ellen Harney. That means she would have brother Thomas Brien born in 1797. Check to see if you have any Harney's on My Heritage or Ancestry. Any Harney's hanging around in Brooklyn? 

It is worth mentioning that Ellen's "Civil Parish" in her death record was Nenagh. I suppose that is where the death was registered, but her house address was still Lissenhall apparently. And there is a note that says: 

**** INMATE 

and that makes me wonder because Quigley's were not against going to Jail.

Also, this might be the Lissenhall house she lived in: https://specialcollections.ul.ie/a-letter-from-the-ira-to-lissenhall-ho…

John O'Brien-

Just for the sake of looking for the father, my guess was DOB 1765 and in County Tipp. I came across: 

The children of Michael O’Brien and Catherine Quinn:

• John O’Brien – b. 1750 Cahir, County Tipperary, Ireland; d. 1819 (so far, I’ve only been able to find him on on-line trees)

https://beautifulwatergenealogy.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/the-obrien-lin…

You previously mentioned a Kennedy connection. I wonder if it ties into the O'Brien's 

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/22430680/person/402199…

John Quigley- 

I noticed your tree has his death as 1853? Someone named Lauren Kalt agrees with you online https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GJQH-NDD

Do you have a bunch of Blake's or people with Blake in their tree on My Heritage? 

Wow, all amazing info!

Ella was first named Ellen yes. She is in the 1880 census as Ellen Quigley

I thought I had found Ellen (O'brien) Quigley's death somewhere in a medical institution: Name:EllenQuigleyDate of Death:13-Jul-1866Age:70Parish / District:NENAGHAddress:LissenhallCounty:Co. TipperaryStatus:Widow (Female)Denomination:Civil RecordOccupation:FARMERS WIFESex:FemaleGraveyardInformantGraveyard:Relationship:HouseholderParish:Name:Mary MartinCounty:Address:LissenhallNotes:CAUSE OF DEATH - PARALYSIS - 9 MONTHS - UNCERTIFIED **** INMATE X ****

However, she was a defendant in petty court in 1861. I could not see the reason. My guess was rent due because she was grouped with others in the area

I do have a Harney with Harney going back in a tree from Australia on myheritage. They trace that Harney back to Tipperary as well. However, they match my mother. So either there is a crossover there (quite possible with O'Shea on my Mom's side being originally from Tipperary and settling in Limerick) or it is coincidental

I have been in touch with Lauren Kait and we cross lines but not genetically through DNA. Her cousin is also doing research on Quigleys. I believe one of my branches farther down connects but also needs to be corrected

I'm finding most records prior to 1800 or so get super fuzzy, particularly since many were destroyed

This person reached out to me a couple of years ago about the Quigley's of Tipperary. We never made the connection but there could be something there: https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-67441171/quigley?familyTree…

But this is amazing research!

Thanks for the link. MyHeritage will not let me message him (Mark Quigley) because I only paid the minimum. If you can, send him my link: https://www.myheritage.com/profile-1959263386/john-quigley?public=1

Kevin, you can disregard my last message. I tracked down Mark.

When comparing Kit JY5526058 (Mark Quigley) and Kit DB3672236 (Kevin Shea i.e. Lissenhall Quigley's), it appears you two have segments matching on almost every chromosome.

However, none of those segments match the segments John Quigley and Mark Quigley share, which is good news for me because the Kevin Shea kit and my Quigley's seem to match via a maternal line (Sullivan).

I never did a gedmatch search. Interesting that Mark and I match but with very low threshold.

Oh, I was able to obtain the death cert of Daniel J Quigley (attached). I think I had seen this prior which is where I got the Ellen Kennedy from. However, I can't find anything when using parents John Quigley and Ellen Kennedy.

You might be forced to go off of educated guesses as opposed to actual records. Considering Ellen had a son in 1828 and 1839, I am presuming that she was born between 1800-1811. I've got 4 leads for you.

The maiden names of Ellen's potential Mom's are Elizabeth Blake, Mary Ryan, Judith Doyle, and Ellen Fahy.

Ancestry recently announced that they will be adding chromosome segment triangulation. If you have a ton of Ryan's for example, you may be able to pinpoint the matching segment and then you can rely on (hopefully) one of them having Mary Ryan's parents in their tree. 

As for John, my leader in the clubhouse for his DOB is 1800 with parents Patrick Quigley and Mary Blake from KILLENAULE PARISH.

I am still slightly perplexed about which family my Patrick B. Quigley came from The attached shows the emigrant savings bank records, specifically for Daniel J. However, look below where it says John (his brother) is living with him. Next to John you see Elizabeth Cully/Culley. Patrick B. married Elizabeth Culley and they lived in Greenpoint. Is it possible John and Patrick B are the same person. On that same line it has John as arriving in the U.S. in 1847, and is the same age as my Patrick B in later years. The mystery continues!

Kevin

What is your source on that screenshot? I can see that it is a screenshot of an excel sheet, but where did the excel sheet come from? But you might be on to something, maybe John = Patrick

John (not Daniel) has some "remarks" on his bank account that might be helpful (not sure if you have seen these). https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/20647382?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a224a42…

My source of that information is from a study done on people following them through their financial deposits at emigrant savings bank. It's from the test books and deposit books and notes similar to the one you see above. Daniel J. Quigley was part of the chosen group to study. You can find by searching for "beyond rags to riches" and download the full database.

From the record you show, it is very similar to Daniel's notes coming from "Listenhall", father Jno dead, mother Ellen Brien. We know Ellen was a lessee is Lissenhall as the widow of John, per Griffiths. But birth records from the 1820s through 1830s don't match up to Patrick and Daniel from Lissenhall, at least to with the information I have. Maybe they were born elsewhere and moved to Lissenhall?

But back to the John/Patrick question, attached is a screenshot of an 1855 census showing Elizabeth T Culley living with her widowed father and family. But a few lines below we see Patrick Quigley. I am guessing this is where they met?

I think we are likely over analyzing it all. Patrick could have told the Bank that his name was John for many reasons. Lying to the bank is a great American past time. Regardless, it seems clear that your family tree is correct. Not to mention, your DNA matches on Ancestry should bring you back to Tipp. Tracing your lineage past about 1830 is very hard. 

Keep in mind, we very likely found the house Daniel and Patrick were born in https://specialcollections.ul.ie/a-letter-from-the-ira-to-lissenhall-ho…

And you are related to current day Mark Quigley likely through the Quigley genetics, although his ancestors are from Silvermines (same Parish). https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/irl/TIP/KilmoreNR

Also, I believe Mark is uploading his Dad's dna soon.

Pat and Liz in the 1860 census: https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/20680072?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a225a4b…

Kevin,

Search "Quigley" in your My Heritage matches, see if anyone new is linked. 

I don't see any new Quigley names that are new as matches on myheritage