Searching Gr gr grandparents - Knock/Ballyhaunis/Roscommon

Cindy

Noted your message. I hope that I can be of some assistance.

The first thing that is worth noting is that you have a date for the respective wedding. Ballyhaunis in this historical period had different parish boundaries inclusive of the actual town area been part of two parishs of Annagh and Bekan. I presume the record that you have from 2000 suggests the parish of Annagh.

(1) On receiving this detail, did you attain the addresses of each spouse on respective record inclusive of withnesses? Although not an exact science the the timing of the marriage was in the same time period as the Griffith Evaluations that you alluded to.

(2) I noted that you felt that the Grogans may have come from Knock. That may be possible from an ancestral scenario but based on the marriage been in Ballyhaunis, the presumption is that Margaret Grogan was most likely from the Ballyhaunis (Annagh) parish following normal marriage protocol. Curiously, there were Grogans south of Ballyahunis town area also and you may have noted Grogans around the Cornacartha area from your search of Griffiths valuation. You may have noted that people, in most cases, did not travel far to get married.     

(3) It may be possible at some stage for the Ballyhunis parish to retrace your research on this marraige record which may assist you further. You could attain this record directly on relevant websites. 

(4) I noted that you have advised that your Tully ancestry may have come from County Roscommon which you may have noted is not that far from Cornacartha either noting that the general area, while in Mayo, is of a  close proximity of both counties Galway and Roscommon.

(5) Have you accessed details on any of their respective children's births especially if they were still lving in Ireland? Information such as dates and sponsors may give you some vital clues. In this time period you may have noted that in most cases their was a naming protocol. The oldest son and daughter was most likely names after the husbands parents. You may have noted this already based on your email.

Please feel free to contact me. There may be more details to follow.

Kind regards

Shay   

Hello Shay,

Thank you very much for your helpful message.  Someday, I will try to get more information from this marriage record of 1854.  However, it was noted by the Mayo Centre search that there was no indication given on the record as to names, addresses, etc of the parents (unfortunately!).  However, the witnesses, Pat Grogan and John Morley are on there.  I have checked and almost all the surnames of the witnesses or baptism sponsors  can be found on the Griffiths Eval, in either Cornacarta, Kildarra, Redhill, or Tulrohaun townlands.  Also, as you said, there are Grogan names in Redhill and in Tulrohaun.  So, I would imagine that Margaret Grogan came from one of these families, and that maybe her parents or grandparents were the ones who came from someplace closer to Knock.  I found some Grogans (John & Bridget) in Cregganbrack, somewhat south-east of Knock (also in Griffiths).

The oldest son of Patrick and Margaret Tully was Owen (b. 1856).  However, I haven't seen any Owen Tullys in the names around there, although I have seen more than one Patrick. (Owen stayed in England after going there to work around 1874). Their oldest daughter was Catherine (b. 1857) (she stayed in Cornacartha).  I assume that either Patrick's or Margaret's mother's name was Catherine.  The next two female children apparently didn't live long as no one in the family knows about them: Anne (1859) and Bridget (1861).  The other children all emigrated to America:  Patrick (c.1863), Ellen (c 1864),  Michael (1865), and Austin (1870).  Patrick and Ellen did not show up on the Mayo Centre search.  Michael was mis-recorded as "William" apparently, and Austin was mis-recorded as "Martin".

It is noted that "A gap in the Annagh baptismal register through the 1860s, and the incompleteness of the Ballindine civil register of births (commencing in 1864), are apparent in the above records.

They also mention that the "only address appearing on any of the above records is 'Ballynary', a local placename reffering to part of the townland of Cornacartha, in the civil parish of Annagh."  The Mullarkey family still living there has told me that they live on "Ballynary Rd" but I can't find any trace of a place called Ballynary anywhere!  I've been told that one of the 2 Tully brothers who came there from Roscommon married a Nary (or Neary) girl but I haven't been able to find any trace of that name in the area either!

Many thanks for any other advice you could give me in this search.

Sincerely,

Cindy

Cindy

Noted your message. 

The extra information at this stage does open more possibilities and your family information seems to have enhanced credibility from a quick search of my records for the area!

(1) I noted yoour records relative to the marriage of Patrick Tully in 1854. Yes, the records can be very informative from one parish to very hard to decipher dependant on parish records and reverence of details maintained in another. The likelyhood that parentage is mentioned is slim if you have not been informed previously although there is a better chance of attaining village location. If that is not the case, you would be unfortunate.  Have you tried the RootsIreland website? There is a cost but it may be your best chance!  Again, if we can get record for you, I will inform accordingly. (Keep me posted if you wish).

(2) The Pat Grogan detail may narrow your village connection to Margaret Grogan. An example would be to try and find a marraige for a Pat Grogan in the immeadiate area in the Annagh or Bekan parish. It may be tedious but you could then check sponsors relative to marraiges and children. To give you a bit of advise, I noted that many child sponsors were often a sibling and their respective partner.! This may give you a start on identifying the Grogan family hertiage. Again, there is always a chance that something will appear. If I see something sometime, I will inform.

(3) The Grogan scenario in Knock parish is totally logical. Just to also note that early in the 19th century, the Knock and Aghamore parishs areas today may have had a closer affinity. They may have been combined for some period. The Grogan surname would also be attributed to these areas which may offer some possibilities. It may be difficult to see what you can do to trace further Grogan ancestery. 

(4) I think that you may have offered intriging details on noting the oldest son was named Owen Tully. I checked my records that I have recorded and noted an Owen Tully as a recorded Flaxgrower in 1798 from the parish of Kiltullagh which is close to Cornacartha! It may be possible that this Owen may be a grandfather of your Patrick Tully rather than his father noting the family affinity to naming protocol at that time. I think it would be worth checking the Kiltullagh land records for location of Tullys if still in the parish area! I The coincidence is too great to ignore especially as the first name is not too common! I do not know much about the Kiltullagh parish records but I think you could find a few avenues to research..

(5) Gaps in records do occur unfortunately but I attained some recent information which  is not an answer but can offer some hope in thew future. Two examples of this are relative to the fact that some records are recorded as poor and not recorded from transcript. May be open to some further scrutiny and another detail is that sometimes records for some areas ended up in a different civil or parish record.

(6) I could give you a lecture on village names, different recordings of names and more details. Primarily the names as recorded then and noted today were for landlord and administration purposes which meant some localised names were lost only to the locals and eventually in many cases disappeared. However, I will check into the Neary/Nary scenario. There were Neary families in the vacinity if not in the localised villages in the 19th century! A lucky break with these names would be see if there was an Owen Tully and Catherine Neary who acted as sponsors to a child. A marriage record would be unlikely noting that most records in the surrounding parishes appeared in the early 1830s. Again you could check Roots Ireland which would cost but if you have a subscription with a ancestry website or indeed access to free ancestry websites, it is worth researching.

(7) Outside chance for you to consider. Try USA and indeed UK record details in relation to births marriages and deaths. Indeed the census records also. You may be lucky as some people have been in locating a death record, marriage record of a child of a father  like Owen Tully in different jurisdiction. Indeed, if a mother was offered, it could open great possibilities to you!. The time period of 1854 offers a distinct possibility. A lot of men and indeed families migrated to the UK especially in this period for short periods or indeed settled in the UK. The USA scenario is to be considered and indeed I would not rule out Australia or Canada for siblings of Patrick Tully taking Owen as his father and siblings possibly located!

Cindy, it may look tedious but you could find some more details. I sincerely think the Owen Tully connection in the Kiltullagh parish offers you great possibilities!           

 Shay

Hello Cindy,

Just a few additional points:

The Tithe Applotment Book (1833) recorded a James Narry and a James Grogan in Cornacarta. Cornacarta townland was part of the Nolan estate which was sold under the Encumbered Estates Act in the 1850s. The estate rental drawn up in 1851 in connection with the sale recorded the following Tullys in Cornacarta: Narry Tully, Pat Tully, Bartholomew Tully, John Tully, and Pat Tully (Jnr). They were joint tenants of a holding of 45 acres. One cannot rule out the possibility that ‘Narry’ Tully was a transcription error but, given the old local placename of Ballynary and the fact that there was a Narry there in 1833, it seems more than a coincidence! Perhaps a Tully married into the Narry holding? Ballynary was at the western end of the townland but, like many sub-townland names, it  would never have been recorded on a  map.

You will have noted that Griffiths Valuation recorded a Michael Grogan in Carrickacat, which adjoins Cornacarta.

The following records from Bekan parish may not be relevant at all. I mention them purely because of the coincidence of the surnames: On 4 Feb 1855 Michael Tully married Mary Grogan (witnesses: Michael Leonard (a surname that occurred at Killdarra near Cornacarta) & Ann Grogan.  They had at least one child Patrick who was baptised on 22 July 1860 (sponsors: Patrick Grogan and Mary Grogan).

Mike

Hello Mike,

Thank you so much for doing this research for me!  This information should really help me!  First of all, I'm convinced there must have been a Narry-Tully marriage as this is the family story.  I did notice there was a James Narry in Curnacartha (1833) and he was also listed in "Carrickahol" the same year.  There was no townland named Carrickahol in Griffith's and I've just now realized that this may have been the Carrickacat of Griffith's! Two of the other people from Carrickahol (1833) are also listed in Carrickacat (1856).  Maybe James had a holding that went over the border?  How did you find where Ballynary was located within Cornacarta?  I'm very curious about this!

I have been trying to understand the family connections between the  1st Tully's in Cornacarta.  In 1856, John was in plot 21 (9 acres) and Pat Sr, Pat Jr and Bartly were in plot 24 (45 acres).  However, within plot 24, Bartly was not included with the "cottage", which makes me wonder if he wasn't one of Pat Sr's sons.  Do you know how old a son would need to be to be listed on the Griffith's or in the 1851 land sale which you talked about (or even on the Griffiths?) From what you said, it seems that John did not have his own land + house (plot 21) in 1851.

"Carrick" (which I think was Carrickacat) also seems to have been important in the family history.  There is a death record for Bartly Tully (1822-1882), address "Carrick", reported by wife Honor.  Luke Tully (born 1867 in "Carrick"), inherited plot 21in Cornacarta 1893 (from Catherine Tully who previously received it from John Tully in 1883.  I don't know if this would have been the original John Tully there or a son John).  Patrick Tully (born abt 1849) inherited land from Bartly (24b).  Michael Tully (born 1838) received plot 24a from a Bartly also.  (This land passing came from cancelled land records and was given to me from someone else.)  There is also a death record for a Margaret Tully (1822 - 1882), address "Ballynary", reported by son John. 

This Michael Tully would be the one you told me about (married in 1855 to Mary Grogan).  I just found this out about a week ago from another family tree on Ancestry.com!  I'm told that their children were Bridget (1857) and Sara (1858).  I don't think this family knows about the Patrick (1860) who you mentioned!  Mary Grogan died shortly after this time and Michael re-married to Bridget Leonard in 1865.   The parents of Mary Grogan (baptised in Bekan RC parish) were John Grogan and Margaret Murray who came from Knock parish.  With this information, I have tried to find my own Gr Grandmother Margaret Grogan but nothing has come up.  I thought that maybe Mary and Margaret were sisters!  I'm hoping to find out if there is a more specific address related to the baptism of Mary Grogan.  Besides my gr grandparents marriage witness, Pat Grogan, some of their children's baptism sponsors were Anne Grogan, Patrick Grogan, and Michael Grogan.

A couple of Owen Tullys have come up in Kiltullagh parish, Rosc but without townlands and incomplete records.  Some others have come up in Templetogher parish, Co Gal (very close to Kiltullagh), and a family with an Owen and Bartly in Conagher, Galway, but just at border of Mayo + Rosc.  All the other Bartly Tullys I've seen came from farther south in Co Galw.  The story is that the Tully brothers came from Co Rosc but I don't know how strictly this needs to be followed.  I'm also wondering if the name of the 1st son" Owen "of my gr grandparents, for sure comes from the Tully side.  None of the other Cornacarta Tullys named any of their children or grandchildren Owen but several Bartly's come up in the descendants of the townland (1st son of Patrick -1849, for example.)

Well, it's a lot of information but if you could help me fit some of this together, I would be very appreciative.  Even being able to understand the family relationships between those 1st Tully's in Cornacarta would be very helpful!!  I am only sure that Patrick Jr was my gr grandfather!  I have searched for any Narry baptisms or marriages in the area and I haven't found any yet which seem to fit in.

Thank you so much for any help you can give.  I feel sure that you will be able to make more sense out of all of this than I can!

Sincerely,

Cindy

Cindy, The reference to Ballynary being 'at the west end of the townland' of Cornacarta is from the book 'B?ac?n/Bekan: Portrait of an East Mayo Parish' edited by Fr Michael Comer & Nollaig O Mura?le (Ballinrobe, 1986). 'Carrick' is indeed the local name for Carrickacat townland while Carrickmacantire townland is usually called 'Carramack'. Unfortunately, since I don't have any Tully links myself, I'm not sure that I can add much further to your knowledge! The Tully Family Tree on Ancestry showing descendants of Owen (?) Tully (c  1770-1830) certainly has a lot of information. Have you had any contact with the present-day Tully family in Cornacarta? I am curious about the Murray connection as I have Murrays (from Bekan) in my own family tree. Best wishes, Mike

Hello Mike,

I am in touch with Ann Mullarkey of Cornacarta.  She is a direct descendant of my Gr .grandfather, Patrick Jr.  She is from the line of Catherine Tully (b 1857), the oldest sister of my own grandfather Austin (b 1870).  Catherine was the only one of our Tully line who stayed in Ireland. (There is another Tully there too, a descendant of the 2nd marriage of Michael Tully. )  Ann is a great source although neither of them knows much of anything about the 1st Tully's in Cornacarta. (Ann tells me they were said to have come from Co Roscommon and that one of them is said to have married a Narry girl.)

Do you know how I can get a copy of the book you referred to?  Perhaps it could be ordered from somewhere.  Or, maybe my cousin Ann could get it for me somewhere?

The Tully tree on Ancestry is my own.  However, I don't know for sure of some of the relationships.  I have put Bartly Sr and Patrick Sr as brothers, for example, but I don't know that for sure.  I have also put Patrick Jr and John as brothers, but this is only what seems to be logical for me.

I noticed recently that Patrick Jr (+ Margaret Grogan) and John (+ Catherine Hasty) both named their 1st two children Owen and Catherine.  John's children were born about 6 years earlier than Patrick's.  So, that's why I've put them as brothers (father: Patrick Sr) with their own grandparents being Owen and Catherine.  I'll have to wait and see if this turns out to be correct.

Mary Grogan (1st wife of Michael Tully, married 1855, in Bekan RC parish) had parents John Grogan and Margaret Murray.  She was born in 1838, and a sponsor was Austin Murray. 

My cousin, Ann, doesn't think that our Margaret Grogan was a sister of Mary's.  She says she would have heard about that from her grandmother if it were the case.  So, I'm going to put that idea on the shelf, at least for now!

Please let me know if you come across any other information which could fit into this Tully group. 

Thank you very much!

Sincerely, Cindy

Hi Cindy, The Bekan book is long out of print but a new edition is planned - probably in 2014. If I come across any further relevant information, I'll be in touch. Good luck! Mike