SULLIVAN/LONGIG

Hi Lesley,

I'll forward your request to our Cork volunteer list. Hopefully someone will have some useful information for you.

Dave

Lesley,

I hate to disappoint you, but Ballyclough parish is near Mallow and Kanturk, not near Kildorrery. Kildorrery/Carrigdownane/ Rockmills would be in the parish of Kildorrery or Glanworth. I could find no record for Langig in either parish.

Best wishes, Kieran

Thanks Kieran,

As attached

1.     the marriage entry for Timothy Sullivan and Mary Longig is in the parish registers:

Ireland Catholic Parish Registers 1655-1915/Cloyne  Ballyclough 1805-1827

Witness William Longig and Ned Carey??

2.    their son,  Thomas, was born there .

 

In 1830 Thomas married in Kildorrery, Cloyne.

As the distance is not great between Ballyclough and Kildorrery I surmised that he had moved to that area?  

Regards

Lesley

 

Lesley,

I don't doubt the marriage of Timothy and Mary or the birth of Thomas, but there is no evidence for the connection between Ballyclough and Kildorrery. At 25 km the distance between Kildorrery and Ballyclough isn't far, but in the early 1800s it was quite a distance. It is estimated that in most cases the distance a man went to find a bride was 10 km. So without further evidence I wouldn't assume it was the same Thomas Sullivan, as that was a common name. Please share any further evidence you have to link Ballyclough and Kildorrery and that will make it easier to help.

Best wishes, Kieran

Attached Files

Hello Leslie,

Kieran is correct.

Kildorrery, by the shortest route is 18.2 miles northeast of Ballyclogh, according to a Google Map at: https://tinyurl.com/yjrc8xt4

By car today it would not take long to travel between the two towns, but back in the 1800s it would have been a long way if you walked or rode on horseback, or traveled by horse and buggy, that is, if you owned a horse or a buggy.

A person walking 3 miles an hour would have taken 6 hours to get between the two towns, slower if young children were along. By horse at 4 miles an hour it would have taken 4 hours and change.

Thomas Sullivan married Ellen Carey in the Kildorrery Catholic Parish, Diocese of Cloyne, on 20 November 1830. Marriages traditionally take place in the bride’s parish church, and so the Kildorrery Catholic Parish was likely the parish church for Ellen and her family.

Their marriage record shows Thomas and Ellen were both living in the townland of “Carigdonan” at the time of marriage. The town of Carigdonan, I suspect refers to Carrigdowane, 2.8 miles south of Kildorrery: https://tinyurl.com/4z94wusm

It’s possible that Thomas had moved from Ballyclogh to Carrigdowlane sometime in the 1820s. But he would have moved when he was young. He was born in 1812 and would have been 18 years old in 1830 when he married Ellen Carey.

I haven’t found any records that make the connection between Thomas Sullivan of Kildorrery/Carrigdowane and parents, Timothy and Mary Longig Sullivan of Ballyclogh, 18 miles away.

Do you have other information that shows Thomas’s parents were Timothy Sullivan and Mary Longig of Ballyclogh?

I am not sure exactly where the surname Longig comes from. It may be a derivation of the Irish surname O’Longaigh, which in turn, is one of the many variants of the surname Long.

The remainder of this reply has to do with the family of Timothy and Mary Long of Ballyclogh/Ballyclough. Aside from the marriage record for Timothy and Mary, and the baptism of their son Thomas that you provided, I didn’t find Mary’s maiden name spelled Longig after Thomas’s baptism in 1812.

The 17 October 1812 transcription from RootsIreland you have for Thomas Sullivan’s baptism in the Ballyclogh Catholic Parish shows that his mother is Honora Longig, rather than Mary Longig. It’s possible the priest who recorded the baptism mistakenly wrote that her first name was Honora rather than Mary.

I’ve seen this in other baptism records where the first name of the mother was incorrectly recorded by the parish priest.

The free National Library of Ireland website has a copy of the original baptism record for Thomas Sullivan, which you can access at the following link:
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632296#page/60/mode/1up

To view the parish register entry for Thomas, you’ll first have to register with FMP. Registration is free.

You’ll see there are two facing pages to the baptism register. You can enlarge the register by means of round icons in the upper center/ right of the screen. The icons are white with green backgrounds. You can also access the full-screen function by clicking on the last icon on the right with the two arrows pointing northeast and southwest.

The baptism entry for Thomas Sullivan is on the left-hand register page, 4th entry down from the bottom. The writing is difficult to read. To the right of the names of the parents are the names of Thomas’s godparents, or sponsors. I couldn’t make out with certainty what their names were.

I looked for the baptisms of other children of Timothy Sullivan and Mary or Honora Long/Longig at the Find My Past (FMP) website. FMP is mainly a subscription website but does have some free collections available. One of these free collections is for Catholic Parish registers of baptisms, marriages, and burials covering the 32 counties of Ireland. Most of the church records are for the 19th century, but some Catholic parishes at have registers that go back to the 18th century, and a few back to the 17th century.

Attached to each FMP transcription is a link that takes you to a copy of the original baptism, marriage, or burial.

At the FMP website I found the Ballyclogh Catholic Parish baptisms for nine more children of Timothy Sullivan and Mary Long.

I didn’t find the baptisms of any other Sullivan children whose mother was Honora Long or Longig, or whose mother’s maiden name was recorded as “Longig.”

The names and years of the Ballyclogh Catholic Parish baptisms for the Sullivan children are below. I’ve also included Thomas’s baptism for a full chronology of the baptisms. As you’ll see he is the oldest child. The name of the Catholic Parish where the children were baptized is spelled “Ballyclough,” as you’ll see later in this reply.

Thomas Sullivan, 1812 (Mother is Honora Longig?)
Mary Sullivan, 1814
John Sullivan, 1816
Mary Sullivan, 1817
John Sullivan, 1819 (Mother’s maiden name is transcribed as Low
Cornelius Sullivan, 1822
Cornelius Sullivan, 1825 (Mother’s maiden name is transcribed as Lang)
Anne Sullivan, 1828
Catherine Sullivan, 1830
Johanna Sullivan, 1836
____

You’ll see there are baptisms for two children named Mary; two children named John; and two children named Cornelius. What this means is that the first-born Mary, John, and Cornelius, had died, and that their parents named other children after them.

THE BAPTISM OF MARY SULLIVAN (1)

The FMP transcription shows that the first-born Mary Sullivan was baptized on 8 May 1814. Her father’s first name is transcribed as “Timy.” See the transcription at:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1734928

A copy of Mary’s original baptism record is the 3rd entry down from the top of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632296#page/77/mode/1up

Mary’s godparents appear to be Willm (William) Bank and Mary Reily.

THE BAPTISM OF JOHN SULLIVAN (1)

The first-born John Sullivan was baptized on 15 December 1816 according to the FMP transcription at:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1735562

A copy of the original baptism record for John Sullivan is the last entry on the right-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632296#page/108/mode/1up

John’s godparents are John Sullivan and Ellen Reily.

THE BAPTISM RECORD OF MARY SULLIVAN (2)

Mary was baptized on 9 August 1817 according to the FMP transcription at:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1735717

Mary’s baptism record is the 6th entry down from the top of the right-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632296#page/115/mode/1up

Her godparents are Tom Croke and Kate Long.

THE BAPTISM OF JOHN SULLIVAN (2)

The second-born John Sullivan was baptized on 26 December 1819. In this record from FMP the maiden name of John’s mother is transcribed as “Low,” rather than Long. See the FMP transcription at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1736233

A copy of the original baptism record for John Sullivan is the 5th entry down from the top of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632297#page/12/mode/1up

The baptism record is very faded, and so you can see why the FMP transcriber may have thought Mary’s maiden name was Low.

The first name of John’s godfather is John. I couldn’t tell what his last name was. The godmother is Cate Mahony.

THE BAPTISM OF CORNELIUS SULLIVAN (1)

The 25 June 1822 FMP baptism transcription for Cornelius abbreviates his surname as “Sull.” See the transcription at:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1736788

A copy of the original baptism record for Cornelius is the 2nd entry up from the bottom of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632297#page/34/mode/1up

The baptism is very difficult to read because of fading. The fist name of the godfather is James. I couldn’t tell what his last name was. The first name of the godmother looks like Ann, but I couldn’t tell what her last name was either.

THE BAPTISM OF CORNELIUS SULLIVAN (2)

The FMP transcription for the second-born Cornelius Sullivan shows his baptism took place on 5 June 1825. His mother Mary’s maiden name is transcribed as “Lang.” See:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1737375

A copy of the original baptism record for Cornelius is the 5th entry down from the top of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632297#page/60/mode/1up

The godfather is Michael Reily. The first name of the godmother is Mary. Her last name may be Cashin.

THE BAPTISM OF ANNE SULLIVAN

Anne was baptized on 1 May 1828. See the FMP transcription at:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1737919

Anne’s baptism record is the 2nd entry down from the top of the left-hand register page at:
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632297#page/81/mode/1up

Anne’s godparents are William Long and Eliza Long

THE BAPTISM OF CATHERINE SULLIVAN

Catherine was baptized on 3 October 1830, according to the FMP transcription:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1738422

Catherine’s baptism is the 8th entry down from the top of the right-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632297#page/96/mode/1up

Catherine’s godparents are Patrick Fitzpatrick and Ellen Sullivan.

THE BAPTISM OF JOHANNA SULLIVAN

The FMP transcription shows that Johanna was baptized on 18 September 1836:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1739312

A copy of the original baptism record for Johanna is the 7th entry down from the top of the right-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632297#page/138/mode/1up

Johanna’s godparents are Patrick Connell and Norry Conner.

THE BALLYCLOGH CATHOLIC PARISH CHURCH

The Ballyclogh Catholic Church is called the Church of Saint John the Baptist. According to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website, the church is located in Rathnee, Ballyclogh, and was constructed circa 1850. See the Buildings of Ireland link at: https://tinyurl.com/ymerbkba

A Google Map shows the “Ballyclogh Catholic Church” (Church of Saint John the Baptist) is located east and south of Main Street, Ballyclogh:
https://tinyurl.com/d4vbc4au

The following will take you to a Google Street View of the church and a Google Street View Main Street, Ballyclogh: https://tinyurl.com/ytdpj42f and https://tinyurl.com/2p8933ts

The Church of Saint John the Baptist was constructed after Timothy and Mary were married and after their children were born, and so would not have been the church where the marriage and baptisms took place.

To find where the church may have been located in the 1820s and 1830s, I accessed an Ordnance Survey Map of Ballyclogh from the GeoHive website. The map was compiled between the years 1837 and 1842, and shows that the “R.C. Chapel” was situated northwest of Ballyclogh, not southeast where it is today. I’ve attached the map to this reply.

The R.C. Chapel is toward the upper left side of the map, above Smithfield House.
The “Church” in the lower center of the map, south of Ballyclogh Castle, is the Ballyclogh Church of Ireland.

The Google Street View at the following link shows the approximate location of the Ballyclogh Catholic Church back in the 1830s and 1840s: https://tinyurl.com/3drmxxkr

The 1837 edition of Lewis’s Topographical Dictionary of Ireland describes the R.C. Chapel in Ballyclough as being a “thatched building,” which was about to be “converted into a school, and a new chapel erected.” Go to the Topographical Dictionary of Ireland entry for Ballyclough at:
https://www.libraryireland.com/topog/B/Ballyclough-Orrery-And-Kilmore-C…

The description of the R.C. Chapel is in the 4th paragraph, beginning with the words, “In the R.C. Divisions...”

The “thatched” R.C. Chapel would have been the chapel where the Sullivan children were likely baptized and where Timothy Sullivan and Mary Longig were married. The “new chapel” is the present day Church of Saint John the Baptist on the completely opposite side of Ballyclogh from the thatched chapel.

Today the parish is called the Parish of Ballyclough and Kilbrin. There is a Catholic Church in the town of Kilbrin which is also called St. John the Baptist. See the parish website at: https://cloynediocese.ie/parish-ballyclough-and-kilbrin/

The National Library of Ireland website shows that the Ballyclough Catholic Parish baptisms are available from 15 August 1807 to 28 September 1881. Marriages are available from 19 January 1805 to 22 June 1885. There may be gaps in the baptism and marriage records however. To see the availability of the Ballyclough parish registers and to view a map showing the location of the Ballyclough Catholic Parish, go to the National Library of Ireland website link at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0012

The marriage record that you attached to your message at the Ireland Reaching Out message board shows that at the time of marriage on 25 January 1812, Timothy and Mary were living in Ballyclough.

I wanted to see if I could find another record that would show where the Sullivan family were living in the 1820s, and 1830s. This record is called the Tithe Applotment Books. The Tithe books recorded farmers throughout the 32 counties of Ireland who were required to pay a percentage of their income toward the upkeep of the established Church or Ireland. The tithe applotments were recorded from 1821 to 1851. For more information about the Tithe Applotment Books, go to the National Archives of Ireland links at:

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/about.jsp
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/aboutmore.jsp

To search the Tithe Applotment Books, go to: http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp

The tithe applotments for farmers living in the civil parish of Ballyclogh were complied in the year 1831. Timothy and Mary’s daughter Catherine was baptized in 1830.

The Tithe Applotment Books show that in 1831 a Timothy Sullivan was farming in the townland of Ballythomas, civil parish of Ballyclogh.

The Tithe Applotment Books record may pertain to your Timothy Sullivan, but I can’t be 100 percent sure of that, as family members in a household are not counted in this record as they are in a census.

Maurice Sullivan is also recorded in Ballythomas. He may have been Timothy’s brother. See the Tithe Applotment Book index from the National Archives of Ireland: https://tinyurl.com/3nk5mjxh

A copy of the original Tithe Applotment Book page for Ballythomas is attached to this reply. There are 12 farmers recorded in Ballythomas. Timothy Sullivan is number 6 on the page. Maurice Sullivan is number 9 on the page.

The Tithe Applotment Books show that Timothy had leased 1 Acre, 3 Roods, and 37 Perches of arable land in Ballythomas.

A portion of the tithes he paid, 1 Shilling and 10 Pence, went to the vicar of the Ballyclogh Church of Ireland, who was the Rev. John Chester. This was called a “Vicarial Tithe.” Another 1 Shillings and 9 Pence went to the Lay Impropriator, who was the lay rector of the church. He was John Longfield, Esq. These tithes were called “Impropriate Tithes.”

In many Tithe Applotment Book records there were also “Rectorial Tithes,” alternatively known as “Great Tithes,” but these were not apportioned in the tithe applotments for Ballythomas. Rectorial tithes went to the rector of the Church of Ireland.

Maurice Sullivan farmed over 9 acres of land, and was required to pay 9 Shillings and 10 Pence in Vicarial Tithes, and 9 Shillings and 4 Pence toward the Lay Impropriator tithes.

A Google Map shows that Ballythomas is not far from Ballyclogh, only two miles away, toward the northeast: https://tinyurl.com/bdd3bn3y

The following links will take you to Google Street Views of Ballythomas: https://tinyurl.com/342hcwv8 and https://tinyurl.com/yckphhxy

Attached to this reply is an Ordnance Survey Map of Ballythomas from the 1837 to 1842 time period. The map is from the GeoHive website.

Again I can’t be positive that the Timothy Sullivan in the Tithe Applotment Books for Ballythoams is your ancestor, but he may be because of the close proximity of Ballythomas with the townland of Ballyclogh/Ballycough.

GRIFFITHS VALUATION

The next step in the research was to see if a Timothy Sullivan, or any other Sullivans were recorded in the townland of Ballythomas according to an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation.

Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for Ballythomas, Ballyclogh/Ballylcough and surrounding townlands and parishes was completed by the year 1852.

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent on Gale Day for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the Ask About Ireland website link at:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

I found that Timothy Sullivan leased a house, offices, and over 3 acres of land in Ballythomas, from an Immediate Lessor named Robert C. Bullen, who owned the property. A copy of the original valuation page from the Ask About Ireland website is attached to this reply.

The land Timothy leased was valued at 2 Pounds and 15 Shillings. The house and offices were valued at 10 Shillings. The total valuation for Timothy’s lease was 3 Pounds and 5 Shillings.

An office in Griffiths Valuation could refer to a barn, stable, blacksmith shop, piggery, etc.

Timothy would not have paid any tax for his lease, as only those leases valued over 5 Shillings were subject to the tax. In this case the Immediate Lessor was responsible for the tax.

The entry for Timothy Sullivan in Griffiths Valuation is map reference number 4a. This refers to an Ordnance Survey Map much like the one attached for the townland of Ballythomas. But this map has number and letter combinations on it to show where an Occupier’s property was located. The maps can be accessed from the Ask About Ireland website.

Griffiths Valuation also shows a Eugene Sullivan leased a house, office, and garden in Ballythomas from the Immediate Lessor, Robert C. Bullen. The garden was valued at 2 Shillings. The house was valued at 6 Shillings. The total valuation for Eugene Sullivan’s lease was 8 Shillings. His lease was at map reference 3b in Ballythomas. His Griffiths Valuation entry is included in a separate attachment.

The Ordnance Survey/Griffiths Valuation Map for Ballythomas is also attached to this reply. On the map you’ll see the location of number 3B in the center of the map, just above Ballythomas House. Eugene Sullivans’s property would have been in this area. Toward the upper left portion of the map is number 4. Timothy Sullivan’s property would have been in this area.

To the right of the number 4 is a woodland. If you look closely enough you’ll see writing here that says “Fox Cover.” For more information about what a fox cover was, as described in Northumberland, England, see: https://www.burradonhistory.co.uk/2013/09/fox-cover.html

CIVIL REGISTRATION

Civil registration began in Ireland on 1 April 1845. At this time however, only Protestant marriages, as well as civil marriages, that is marriages performed by a magistrate, were recorded by the government.

Civil registration of births, marriages, and deaths in Ireland for all religious denomination commenced in Ireland in 1864.

This means there will not be baptism records for any of the children of Timothy Sullivan and Mary Long(ig).

If the children remained in Ireland, there may be marriage records for them if they had married later in life. There would also be death records for them if they had died after 1863, but you would have to know where and when they died Ireland in order to access their death records.

The irishgenealogy.ie website has civil registration records of birth, marriage, and death that you can access for free. If Thomas died in Ireland after 1863, there may be a death record for him, that is, if his death was reported to the registrar in the district where his death took place.

Just to recap, do you have any records or perhaps family stories handed down through the years that your Thomas Sullivan originally came from the Ballyclogh area and that his parents were Timothy Sullivan and Mary Longig or Long?

Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

SOURCES

Google Maps
Google Street Views
National Library of Ireland
Find My Past
National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland
GeoHive Ordnance Survey Maps
Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Ireland
https://cloynediocese.ie/parish-ballyclough-and-kilbrin/
National Archives/Tithe Applotment Books
Ask About Ireland/Griffiths Valuation
Griffiths Valuation Map

Firstly I'll reply to Kieran.

I agree with you Kieran, looks like that's not  "my" Thomas Sullivan.  I don't have anything to link Ballyclough to Kildorrery.  Having looked at the Thomas Sullivans born at the date of "my" Thomas the only one I thought could be a possibility was the Ballyclough  person  as he was the closest I could find and thus I was checking to see if yoursite had any further information.  Ah well.....  

The NLI Parish Registers are an excellent source of information and have been of great help in tracing my Irish ancestors.  Unfortunately I have found nothing on Thomas' parents at this stage.

Very many thanks for your kind assistance, Kieran, it's very much appreciated,

Secondly I'll reply to  you, Dave, properly at a later date as I now have to read your amazing reply and digest it all

Best regards,

Lesley

Hi Dave,

I have no information to show that Thomas' parents were Timothy and Mary, as you'll see in my previous reply to Kieran.  Having looked at all the information you so kindly provided I agree with Kieran that Timothy and Mary are probably not the parents of "my" Thomas who died in 1880 in Acton, London - a 70yo labourer.  His children and their families all lived close by.

 

Unfortunately the Kildorrery records on NLI do not include any births prior to 1824.

 

I have all the information on Thomas and Ellen Carey's 1830 marriage and the baptism information on each of their children.  Their youngest surviving child, Ellen b12/06/1853, was my maternal great-grandmother.  From my mother I know that Ellen Jnr came to London with her father, Thomas, as a c9yo after the death of her mother, therefore c1862.   She migrated to Western Australia with her family in 1912 after the death of her husband.

 

Thomas & Ellen's older children had already moved to London by the time their father eventually arrived there.  The first three of them I've traced through their lives until their deaths as I'm still in close  & regular contact with their great-grandchildren .  My maternal grandparents were  first cousins so I'm related to Thomas & Ellen on both sides on my maternal tree.

 

Once again, many thanks for your assistance and best wishes,

Lesley

You're welcome Leslie, and many thanks for writing back.

Best Wishes for the holidays,

Dave