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Sullivans/Hardiman living in Kilconnell 1950s

Trying to locate the home and any info of my grand parents  John Sullivan and Dympna Sullivan  maiden name Hardiman

Image of Family home uploaded below  which i think is on the R348  main road in Kilconnell  with 

Kilconnell Franciscan Friary behind the Family Home and near the post office.

They had Two sons who came to live in England in the late 50s  the youngest being my Father Joseph Sullivan

And  my uncle John (Jackie)sullivan who settled in Birmingham,England.

My Grandfather was a policeman image uploaded  and was buried in the locality.

Would be nice to have any information about them etc

many thanks. John sullivan

 

John

Wednesday 13th May 2020, 09:06PM

Attached Files

Message Board Replies

  • Hello John,

    I found the full marriage record for your grandparents, John Sullivan and Dympna Hardiman, as well the birth index for your dad, Joseph C. Sullivan.

    Before sending this information I'd like to do a little more research to see what else I can find about your dad and his ancestors in other records, so that I'll have more complete information to send you.

    For example, I want to see if I can find Dympna in the 1901 and 1911 census enumerations, as these census returns should give the names of her parents, if living, as well as the names of any brothers and sisters she had. I'll also want to see if I can locate the marriage record for her parents.

    Finding records about John Sullivan will probably be more challenging, as Sullivan is one of the most popular names in Ireland.

    I hope you don't mind waiting a little bit longer for this information, but I should be writing back, hopefully by this weekend, or sometime next week, after the research is completed.

    With Kind Regards,

    Dave Boylan

    davepat

    Thursday 14th May 2020, 02:16AM
  • Hello Dave,

    This is wonderful news, thank you very much for your help and the time you're taking to help me!

    Just to let you know that my Dad's middle name was Coleman hence the Joseph C Sullivan. Ive often wondered about this name so hopefully you will find something of interest there?

     

    I'm happy to wait for as long as it takes you and am so very grateful to be able to share the news so far with my siblings.

    Kind regards

    John Sullivan

     

     

    John

    Thursday 14th May 2020, 09:57AM
  • You're welcome John, and many thanks for your reply, which coincidentally I came across as I was doing some research about your Hardiman ancestors. So far I've found quite a few records for Dympna and her family, though I haven't started with the Sullivan side of your ancestry yet. That may be a challenge in its own right because the name Sullivan was, and is, one of the most populous surnames in Ireland, right up there with Murphy.

    Speaking of your Surname Sullivan, I may actually do a separate search for that side of your family, after I finish up with the Hardiman side, that way I can get you everything I found about the Hardimans first, so that you won't have to wait to long to see it. It may be a bit of a challenge to find information about the Sullivans before Dympna Hardiman married into the family.

    Your Dad's middle name of Coleman may be a clue I can use when researching the Sullivans. I'll keep an eye out for the Coleman surname as the research progresses.

    In the meantime if I have any questions I'll write back.

    Thank you again for your reply John. It is very much appreciated.

    Dave

    davepat

    Thursday 14th May 2020, 04:18PM
  • Hello again John,

    Does the gravestone of your grandfather John Sullivan have his date of birth and date of death? Also, do you know if he was born in the Kilconnell area. If he wasn't born in Kilconnell, do you know where he was born?

    Thanks John,

    Dave 

    davepat

    Thursday 14th May 2020, 11:39PM
  • Hello dave,

    my mum and dad found my grandfathers grave about 20 years ago , but she is unable to remember  location etc 

    i was always told my grandfather came from county kerry.

    thats all i know, i can speak to my mum and see what more info i can get her to recall.

     

    many thanks john sullivan

    John

    Friday 15th May 2020, 12:38PM
  • Hello Dave,

    My grandfather John Sullivan would have died in the mid 60s, i would say.

    i am waiting for my younger sister to get back to me regarding any more info from my mum.

     

    regards John Sullivan

    John

    Friday 15th May 2020, 12:43PM
  • Thanks John, the more information the better.

    Thus far I just know when and where John Sullivan was married, but not his age at marriage. I also know he was a constable, and that his father was also named John Sullivan, who was a farmer. I don't know where John Sullivan was born, his date of birth or year of birth. His mother's first and maiden names would be necessary to pin down his genealogy.

    Just to recap, I would need, if possible:

    His date of birth

    His place of birth

    His mother's first and maiden names

    His religious affiliation (John and Dympna married in the Catholic Church, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was Roman Catholic).

    Concerning Dympna Hardiman, I've compiled about a dozen records concerning her genealogy. These records include census enumerations, indexes, transcriptions, as well as copies of original civil registration records, and also a few church records. I am still looking for more records concerning her ancestry.

    Once I've found as much information about Dympna as I can, I'll put all the records together in narrative form so that you can see the chronology of her ancestry, which includes her parents and siblings.

    Thank you John,

    Dave

    davepat

    Friday 15th May 2020, 02:46PM
  • Hello Dave,

    Geting there slowly, attached my grandmothers birth baptism cert

    As far as we know the family on both sides were R.C . Sorry not having any more luck on gran fathers side yet

     

    best wishes John Sullivan

    John

    Friday 15th May 2020, 05:01PM

    Attached Files

  • Thank you John for the baptism certificate for Dympna. You'll be able to add that to the civil birth record I found for her, which will be sent with the rest of the attachments I uncovered for her Hardiman family.

    The baptism certificate will also provide me a chance to see if I can find out more information about St Cuan's Church in Ahascragh, where she was baptized.

    Thank you again John.

    Dave

    davepat

    Friday 15th May 2020, 08:03PM
  • Hello Dave,

     

    Thanks for the continued work you are putting in dave , really appreciated .

    have a nice weekend.

    kind regards John Sullivan

    John

    Friday 15th May 2020, 08:57PM
  • Thanks John,

    Making good progress. I uncovered a few records I didn't expect to find. Not sure when I'll be done.

    Thanks again,

    Dave

    davepat

    Saturday 16th May 2020, 11:07PM
  • Hello John,

    Attached to this reply is the marriage record for your grandparents John Sullivan and Dympna Hardiman, who were married in the Roman Catholic Church of Howth, Dublin, on 29 August 1922.

    The marriage record was uncovered at the free irishgenealogy.ie website.

    At the time of marriage John was of “full age,” while Dympna was 25 years old. John had been a bachelor and Dympna a spinster, meaning she had not been married before. John’s address at the time of marriage was Dublin, while the marriage record shows that Dympna was from Ahascragh, County Galway.

    The marriage record also shows that John was an “R.I. Constable,” meaning a Royal Irish Constable, which in records you may see abbreviated as “R.I.C.” His father, also named John Sullivan, was a farmer.

    No occupation is recorded for Dympna. Her father is John Hardiman, a farmer. The Howth Catholic Church Parish Priest who married John and Dympna was Father P.J. Shanagher. The witnesses to the marriage were Bartholomew Cahillane and Katie Hardiman. Katie was likely Dympna’s sister.

    John and Dympna’s marriage is the third one in the attached Howth marriage register.

    The Howth Parish Church is called the Church of the Assumption, and according to information at the link that follows, it was constructed in the year 1899. To read more, go to: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WKgkdraXHKx5s4EYvtX5lsjoPjsd4Lot/view

    For a Google Map showing the location of the Howth Parish Catholic Church (Church of the Assumption), see: https://is.gd/C462ch

    For a Google Street View of the Church, go to: https://is.gd/mW1K3q

    You can also view the location of the “R.C. Church” in Howth on an Ordnance Survey Map from the early 20th century at: https://bit.ly/3fRQKu8

    The Church of the Assumption in Howth has its own website at: http://www.howthparish.ie/home

    To see if you can order the Howth Parish marriage cert for John Sullivan and Dympna Hartiman, send an email to the church at: assumptionhowth@gmail.com

    The Howth marriage cert should include much the same information as the attached civil marriage record.

    John Sullivan was a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary in one of the most violent periods in modern Dublin history, as the Irish Civil War began in Ireland in 1922. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Civil_War

    The year 1922 was also a tumultuous period for the Royal Irish Constabulary, as it transitioned from the Royal Irish Constabulary to “An Garda Síochána,” which in the Irish language means The Guardians of the Peace. The full name of this organization actually is Garda Síochána na hÉireann, that is, “Guardians of the Peace of Ireland.”

    To read more go to the yourirish.com website link at:
    https://www.yourirish.com/history/20th-century/formation-of-the-garda

    John, I’ll bet your grandfather had some amazing stories to tell about that time period in Irish and Dublin history. I wonder what he would have thought about the 1996 film, Michael Collins, starring Liam Neeson?

    CIVIL REGISTRATION IN IRELAND

    Civil registration began in Ireland in 1845, but the Irish government at this time only recorded civil and Protestant marriages. Catholic marriages were not recorded. Civil registration of births, marriages, and death for all religious denominations commenced in Ireland in 1864. Today, the irishgenealogy.ie website has digitized copies of original birth records from 1864 to 1919. Birth records after 1919 are not available online because of a 100 year rule that has to do, I believe, with privacy issues, as more and more people are living into their 100s, and may not want information about their births available online for all to see. I’ll have more about Irish birth records in just a bit.

    Digitized copies of original death records are not available at irishgenealogy.ie until the year 1878. Death records online can be accessed up to the year 1969. Irishgenalogy.ie has plans to release digitized copies of original death records from 1864 to 1877 in the future. Right now, there are only death indexes available at irishgenealogy.ie from 1864 to 1877, but these do not give a lot of information about the deceased person.

    YOUR DAD, JOSEPH C. SULLIVAN

    As mentioned above copies of original birth records in Ireland are not online after 1919, but there are indexes of births in Ireland after 1919. I found the birth index for your dad, Joseph C. Sullivan at an Ancestry.com collection called, “Ireland, Civil Registration Births Index, 1864-1958.” The reason that I believe this index pertains to your dad is that it gives the maiden name of his mother, Hardiman. Your dad’s birth was recorded in the Ballinasloe (County Galway) registration district for the June quarter of 1931. The June quarter includes the months of April, May, and June, as you’ll see in the index that follows.

    Ireland, Civil Registration Births Index, 1864-1958

    Name: Joseph C Sullivan
    Mother's Surname: Hardiman
    Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1931
    Registration district: Ballinasloe
    Birth Country: Ireland
    Volume: 4
    Page: 21
    FHL Film Number: 101231

    Source Information
    Ancestry.com. Ireland, Civil Registration Births Index, 1864-1958 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2011.
    ____

    If you do not already have your dad’s birth cert, you can order it from the General Register Office (GRO) located in Roscommon Town, County Roscommon, Ireland. A photocopy of the birth record is 4 Euros. If you need the birth certificate for legal purposes, such as becoming an Irish citizen, the birth certificate is 20 Euros.

    If you want a photocopy for 4 Euros, you can order the certificate by email, post or fax.

    I’ve attached the application form if you want to order a photocopy of your dad’s birth.

    I’ve also attached a separate application form if you want to order a birth record for legal purposes for 20 Euros. You can order the birth cert for legal purposes by post or fax.

    You can pay for the birth cert by credit card.

    Whatever type of birth cert you want to order, the application form will ask you for the name of the person whose birth you require, the Registration District where the birth was recorded, the Year of the birth, the Quarter of the year in which the birth took place, as well as the Volume and Page number where the birth can be found in the GRO registers. The application form will also ask for the, “Group Registration I.D.,” but you do not have the Group Registration I.D. information from your dad’s Ancestry.com birth index, and so you do not need to fill in this information on the application form.

    On the application form, in addition to your dad’s name, write that the:

    Registration District is Ballinasloe.
    The Year is 1931.
    The Quarter of the Year is the 2nd quarter.
    The Volume is 4.
    The Page Number is 21.
    ____

    The birth index below, also from Ancestry.com, may pertain to your father’s brother, John J. Sullivan. But, this birth index does not record his mother’s maiden name. His birth was recorded in the Ballinasloe Registration District in the 1st quarter of 1924. His birth record can be found in Volume 4, Page 25 of the GRO registers.

    Do you think this birth index refers to your Uncle Jackie who went to Birmingham?

    See below:

    Civil Registration Births Index, 1864-1958

    Name: John J Sullivan
    Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1924
    Registration district: Ballinasloe
    Birth Country: Ireland
    Volume: 4
    Page: 25
    FHL Film Number: 101229

    Source Information
    Ancestry.com. Ireland, Civil Registration Births Index, 1864-1958 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2011.
    ____

    If you think the index above does refer to your Uncle Jackie, you can also order his birth cert from the GRO in Roscommon Town, County Roscommon. His birth was recorded in the Ballinasloe Registration District in the 1st quarter of 1924, and can be found in Volume 4, Page 25 of the GRO registers.

    DYMPNA HARDIMAN AND FAMILY

    The 29 August 1922 marriage record for John Sullivan and Dympna Hardiman shows that Dympna was 25 years old. I wanted to get a little more information about Dympna before looking for her civil registration birth cert. For example, I wanted to find out, at the least, what her mother’s first name was.

    To look for more information I went to the 1911 census, to see if Dympna was recorded in that enumeration living with her parents and siblings. In 1911 she would have been between 13 and 14 years old.

    The census was taken on 2 April 1911.

    I accessed the 1911 census several days ago before I received your attachment of Dympna’s St. Cuan Catholic Church baptism record showing that her mother was Mary Smith.

    I found Dympna, her parents, and siblings in the 1911 census at the National Archives of Ireland website at:
    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Galway/Clonbrock/Ballyb...

    Once the census transcription for the Hardiman family appears, make sure to click on, “Show all information,” to view the full census page.

    The census shows the family were the “Residents of a house 5 in Ballybaun (Clonbrock, Galway).”

    House 5 does not refer to the street number of the house, but to the number on the census form (Form B. 5) on which the family is recorded in the 1911 census.

    Ballybaun is the name of the townland where the Hardiman family were living. Clonbrock is the D.E.D., that is, the District Electoral Division where Clonbrock was situated. The D.E.D today is just called the “Electoral Division.” See: http://census.cso.ie/censusasp/saps/boundaries/eds_bound.htm

    As you can see the 1911 census shows that Dympna’s father is 69 year old farmer, John Hardiman, who could speak both Irish and English. Her mother is 55 year old Maria. Both John and Maria, as well as all the children in the household were born in County Galway. On the census line for 55 year old Maria, you’ll see the numbers, 35, 12, and 10. These mean that as of 1911 John and Maria had been married for 35 years, and in that time had 12 children, with 10 children still living. Five of those children are in the household with them, the oldest being 26 year old labourer, John, followed by his 24 year old brother Michael, also employed as a labourer. Bridget is next at 20 years old. The two youngest children are 15 year old Catherine and your 13 year old grandmother, Dympna. Catherine and Dympna are shown to be scholars, that is, students.

    Catherine is probably the Katie Hardiman who witnesses the 1922 marriage of John Sullivan and her sister Dympna.

    The 1911 census was taken on 2 April. Dympna’s baptism record shows she was born on 1 July 1897, which means she would have turned 14 on 1 July 1911

    To view a copy of the original 1911 census for the Hardiman family, go to the National Archives of Ireland link at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002421289/

    I also located 4 year old Dympna, her 7 siblings, and her mother and father in the 1901 census, living in Ballybaun. This enumeration gives the D.E.D. as “Cloubrock,” which I think is an error in the transcription, as it should be Clonbrock.

    In the 1901 census Dympna’s father John is 45 years old, while her mother is 40 years old. In the 1911 census however, Dympna’s father is 69 years old and her mother 55 years old, which means you cannot always rely on the accuracy of ages in the 1901 and 1911 Irish census enumerations, though Dympna’s age in both census returns appears to be accurate.

    In the 1901 census there are 8 children in the Hardiman household. Dympna at 4 years old and Margaret at 2 years old are the youngest. The oldest is 18 year old Thomas, who was not in the household in the 1911 census. His brother, 11 year old Joseph, was also absent from the household in the 1911 census. By 1911 they may have been married and living in their own households, or may have left Ireland. Margaret, who is 2 years old in the 1901 census, is not in the 1911 census with her family, which is an indication that she may have been deceased by the year 1911.

    To find out I looked for Margaret’s civil registration death record at the irishgenealogy.ie website, and sadly, I found it. But, in the same death register as Margaret is the death of her sister Anna, who is not in the1901 census.

    Anna Hardiman died in “Boulabane” on 18 January 1906 at the age of 13 years. The cause of death was, “Cardiac failure. Acute rheumatism one year. Certified.” Anna is listed as a “Farmer’s child.” The person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the local registrar named A.C. Callaghan, was her father John Hardiman of Boulabane.

    Margaret Hardiman died a day after Anna, on 19 January 1906 at the age of 6. The cause of death was, “Cardiac failure from the effects of burns. No medical attendant.” She is recorded as a, “Farmer’s child.” Her father John of Boulabane was present at the death and reported the death to the local registrar, A.C. Callaghan, who recorded the deaths of Anna and Margaret in the Mountbellew Registration District on 1 February 1906. Anne’s death is at Number 182 in the attached death register, while Margaret’s death is at Number 183.

    Dympna would have turned 9 years old in 1906 when her sisters died a day apart, and you can only imagine the affect their deaths had upon her, not only as a child, but perhaps for the rest of her life.

    John, do you know if there is anyone in your family who may have heard from your grandmother in years past that she had two sisters who died as children in the early 1900s?

    I could not find a location called, Boulavane or Boulabane on any map of County Galway. I believe however, this was an alternate spelling for the townland of Ballybaun, where the Hardiman family are shown to be living in the 1901 and 1911 census enumerations. Or, Boulavane/Boulabane may have been the way members of the Hardiman family had pronounced the name of Ballybaun.

    My cousins in County Kerry lived in a section of Kenmare called Lissyclearig, in the shadow of a mountain range called Macgillycuddy’s Reeks. They pronounced the mountain range as, “Mah-ha-cully,” in their own dialect.

    John, your information shows that Dympna, and her husband John Sullivan had lived in Kilconnell, Galway in the 1950s.

    A Google Map shows that Kilconnell, by the shortest route, is 8.8 miles south of Ballybaun, where Dympna and her family had once lived. See the map at: https://is.gd/JZk1Ks

    To view an Ordnance Survey Map of Ballybaun from the 1888 to 1913 time period, go to the GeoHive link at:
    https://bit.ly/2WAEhDi

    In Irish, Ballybaun is, “An Baile Bán,” meaning, White Town.

    There were, or are, 10 townlands in Galway called Ballybaun. It took a little while to find the Ballybaun on a Google Map where Dympna and her family lived because there are so many townland with the same name in the county. The particular Ballybaun where Dympna and her family lived was situated in the Civil Parish of Ahascragh, Barony of Kilconnell, Poor Law Union (PLU) of Mountbellew, Province of Connaught.

    To see the different townlands called Ballybaun in Galway in the 19th century, go to the IreAtlas Townland Database website link at: https://is.gd/edktBj

    DYMPNA HARDIMAN’S BIRTH CERT

    From her baptism record you know that Dympna was born on 1 July 1877. Her birth cert from irishgenealogy.ie also shows that she was born on 1 July 1877. Her place of birth in the birth cert looks like “Bulabane.”

    As you’ll also see in the copy of the original birth record, the interim registrar appears to have recorded Dympna’s first name as, “Demphyna,” or something similar to that, as his hand writing is not the best in the world.

    Dympna’s father is John Hardiman, of Boulabane. His occupation is “labourer.” Her mother is Mary Hardiman, formerly Smyth, or Smythe. The person who was present at the death and who reported the birth to the interim registrar, John Ward, was Mary’s “sister,” Mary Anne Hartiman, of Boulabane. Mary Anne may have actually been John Hartiman’s sister. Dympna’s birth record is attached to this reply.

    Dympna was baptized in St. Cuan’s Catholic Church in Ahascragh. A Google Map shows the location of the church at: https://is.gd/dPMLdY

    For a Google Street View of the church, go to: https://is.gd/NUmcNe

    The church is 2.3 miles southeast of Ballybaun: https://is.gd/HoNkSG

    For another Google Street View, this one of Main Street, Ahascragh, see: https://is.gd/H5A4gO

    St. Cuan’s is a very old church. According to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website, the church was constructed circa 1800. For a description and slide show of the church, go to the Buildings of Ireland link at: https://is.gd/Rvs3GD

    You can view the location of the “R.C. Chapel,” (St. Cuan’s) in Ahascragh on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period at the GeoHive link at: https://bit.ly/3cF3ths

    Also see the R.C. Chapel in Ahascaragh, off Chapel Street, on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period at: https://bit.ly/3bDDgia

    HARDIMAN AND SMYTH MARRIAGE

    Dympna Hartiman’s baptism record shows that her parents were John Hardiman and Mary Smith. The 1911 census shows that John and Mary Hartiman had been married for 35 years, placing their year of marriage circa 1876.

    With this information I looked for the civil marriage record for John Hartiman and Mary Smith at the irishgenealogy.ie website and found it. They were married on February 13, 1877 in the Catholic Chapel of Killeenadeema by the Parish Priest, Father Richard Raferty. At the time of marriage John Hartiman was 30 years old. Mary “Smyth” was 20 years old. John’s occupation was farmer. No occupation is recorded for Mary. John’s residence at the time of marriage was Boulabane. His father is “Thoma” (Thomas) Hardiman, a farmer.

    Mary’s residence at the time of marriage was Bracklaugh. Her father’s first name is also recorded as “Thoma” He too was a farmer. The witnesses to the marriage were Patt Hardiman and Jane Smyth. There were likely the brother of the groom and sister of the bride. The marriage record is attached to this reply, and is the first entry in the marriage register.

    Marriages traditionally took place in the bride’s parish, and so the Killeenadema Catholic Parish may have been the parish where Mary Smyth and her family worshipped. On a Google Map Bracklough is spelled, “Bracklagh,” and is 6.9 miles east of Killeenadema by the shortest route. See: https://is.gd/6RQ1Qu

    On the other hand another Google Map shows that John Handiman’s residence of Boulabane (Ballybaun) was several miles north of Killeenadeema and Bracklagh, with Loughrea in between: https://is.gd/qD0Zhf

    Locating this marriage record answered a question I had about your grandmother Dympna Hardiman’s first name. I believe her mother named her Dympna, as St. Dympna is the name of the Killeenadeema Catholic Church where she and John Hardiman were married in 1877, and which, according to the Buildings of Ireland website, was constructed circa 1830. To read more about the church and to view a slide show of St. Dympna’s Catholic Church, go to the Buildings of Ireland link at: https://is.gd/earpRl

    To see the location of the R.C. Chapel in Kileenadeema onan Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period, go to the GeoHive link at: https://bit.ly/2X6oviG

    MORE HARDIMAN BIRTH RECORDS

    In addition to the birth record for Dympna Hardiman, I located the birth records for 7 of her siblings. The names and years of birth for these siblings are below. I’ve also included Dympna in the list below so that you can see the full chronology of the Hardiman births:

    Jane Hardiman, 1878
    Patrick Hardiman, 1880
    Thomas Hardiman, 1881
    John Michael Hardiman, 1883
    Joseph Hardiman, 1889
    Anna Maria Hardiman, 1892
    Kate Louisa Hardiman 1894
    Dympna Hardiman. 1897
    ____

    You’ll notice a gap of 6 years between the birth of John Hardiman in 1883 and Joseph Hardiman in 1889. The births that may have taken place between these two years were either not reported by the parents or the midwife to the local registrar, or, it’s possible children were stillborn during these 6 years. It’s also not out of the realm of possibility that I missed locating the birth records at irishgenealogy.ie

    Your father Joseph was probably named after Dympna’s brother Joseph, who was born in 1889.

    All of the Hardiman birth records are attached to this reply. All the children were born in Bulabane/Bulavane/Banavane.

    Of the 8 Hardiman children born to John Hardiman and Mary Smith/Smyth, I only found the baptisms for their daughter Jane, and son Patrick. I initially uncovered the baptism transcriptions at the Find My Past (FMP website. FMP is a subscription website, with the exception that it does not charge to search for Irish Catholic Parish Church registers of baptisms, marriages, and deaths or burials for the 32 counties of Ireland. Some of the Catholic registers go back to the 18th and even 17th centuries, but most are for Catholic parish registers for the 19th century.

    Attached to each FMP transcription is a link that takes you to the parish register where the baptism, marriage, or burial is recorded. These registers are held by the National Library of Ireland in Dublin, and are also free to access online.

    The FMP baptism transcription for Jane gives the Latin spelling for her name. This is Joanna. The first name of her father is also in the Latin form, Joanne. Her mother’s first name is recorded as Maria. Jane was baptized in the Ahascragh and Killosolan Catholic Parish on 24 June 1878. Her attached birth record shows she was born on 23 June 1878.

    You can view the FMP baptism transcription at the FMP link coming up. You may have to register with FMP to view the transcription. Registration is free. See the link at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F3974376

    A copy of Jane’s original baptism record at the National Library of Ireland can be found at:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633861#page/33/mode/1up

    There are two facing pages of the register. The baptism for “Joanna” spans both the left and right pages, and can be found at entry number 436, which is the 5th baptism down from the top.

    You can enlarge the baptism register pages by means of round icons in the upper center/ right of the screen. The icons are white with green backgrounds. You can also access the full-screen function by clicking on the last icon on the right with the two arrows pointing northeast and southwest.

    The baptism record shows that at the time of the baptism Jane and her family were living in “Boulebane/Boulibane.” On the right hand baptism register page is the name of the priest who baptized Jane. He was Patricio (Patrick) Healy. Also on the right-hand register page are the names of her godparents. These are Patricio Hardiman and Brigida (Bridget) Hardiman.

    PATRICK JOSEPH HARDIMAN BAPTISM

    The FMP transcription for Patrick shows that his middle name was Joseph. In the Latin his name is recorded as Patricius Josephus. The transcription gives his surname as “Hardman,” rather than Hardiman.

    Patrick was baptized in the Ahascragh Catholic Parish on 10 March 1880, but his birth in the baptism register is recorded as 2 April. His civil registration birth record places his birth on 12 March 1880, showing a little incongruity there, which is not uncommon when comparing dates of birth and dates of baptisms in the old records.

    The FMP transcription also records his father’s first name as, “Hanna,” but as you’ll see in a bit in a copy of the original baptism record, John’s first name could be interpreted as Hanna if you didn’t know his first name was John and that one of the Latin spellings for John is Joanne.

    The FMP transcription shows that Patrick’s mother is Maria Smith. You can view the transcription at:
    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4713737

    A copy of the original baptism record for Patrick Joseph Hardiman is at Number 535 in the baptism register at:
    https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633861#page/40/mode/1up

    The residence of the Hardiman family looks like “Boolibane.” The right-hand page is the section of the baptism that records Patrick’s birth as 2 April. The priest who baptized him was Patricio Healy, who was the same clergyman who baptized his sister Jane in 1878. The first name of Patrick’s godfather is “Joanne,” or John. His last name looks like it could be Stanton, though the two letters, t and t, in the Stanton name are not crossed. Patrick’s godmother is Catherine Hardiman, who may have been John’s sister.

    The baptism records for Jane and Patrick do not mention the name of the church where they was baptized, but it may be St. Cuan’s in Ahascragh, where Dympna was baptized 19 years later.

    In the Irish language Ahascragh is spelled, “Áth Eascrach,” meaning “Ford of the Esker.” For more information see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahascragh

    According to the National Library of Ireland, baptism register for the Ahascragh Catholic Parish commence on 10 January 1840 and extend to 26 February 1881. Thomas Hardiman was born in 1881 but his birth didn’t take place until 3 September of that year.

    The National Library of Ireland also shows that Ahascragh marriages begin on 29 January 1866 and conclude on 14 February 1881. You can read about the availability of the Ahascragh and Killosolan Catholic Parish registers as well as view a map of the parish and surrounding Catholic parishes at the National Library of Ireland link at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0535

    JOHN HARDIMAN

    The 1877 marriage record for John Hardiman and Mary Smyth records John’s age as 30 and his residence as Boulabane, which I suspect is an alternative name for Ballybaun. His father is recorded as Thoma, that is Thomas.

    At 30 years old in 1877, John would have been born circa 1847, which was during the Great Famine in Ireland, and one of the worst years of that famine. See the following 1997 article from the Baltimore Sun at: https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1997-08-30-1997242008-story.html

    Also see: https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/famine/summer_1847.html

    In the 1911 census however, John’s age is 69 years old, placing his year of birth circa 1842. In the 1901 census his age is 45 years old, placing his year of birth circa 1856. The two census enumerations are an example of how you cannot always trust the accuracy of these old census records. I’m not even sure if John’s age of 30 in the 1877 marriage record is accurate, but likely more accurate than in the 1911 and 1901 census returns.

    Boulabane/Ballybaun in the 19th century was located in the Civil Parish of Ahascragh, as well as the Catholic Parish of Ahascragh. As mentioned earlier the National Library of Ireland website shows that the Ahascargh baptism registers commence on 10 January 1840.

    I looked for John’s baptism transcription at the FMP website for the Catholic Parish of Ahascragh and Killosolan between the years 1840 and 1850, but unfortunately, did not find it. It’s possible that his baptism was not recorded, or that I missed finding his baptism transcription at the FMP website.

    GRIFFITHS VALUATION

    While I didn’t find a baptism record for John Hardiman, I did uncover information about his father Thomas in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation, leasing property in the townland of Ballybaun, Civil Parish of Ahascragh. In fact, Thomas is recorded twice leasing property in Ballybaun.

    Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for Ballybaun and surrounding townlands in the Ahascragh Civil Parish was completed by the year 1855.

    Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent on Gale Day for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

    You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the askaboutireland website link at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

    Below is a transcription of one of the properties Thomas Hardiman leased in Ballybaun:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 2
    Civil Parish: Ahascragh
    Townland: Ballybaun
    Occupier: Thomas Hardiman
    Immediate Lessor: Lord Clonbrock
    Description of Tenement: House, office, and land
    Area of Land: 7 Acres, 0 Roods, 6 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 3 Pounds
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 1 Pound, 5 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 4 Pounds, 5 Shillings
    ____

    Griffiths Valuation shows that Thomas Hardiman leased a house, office, and over 7 acres of land from an Immediate Lessor named Lord Clonbrock. The land was valued at 3 Pounds, while the house and office were valued at 1 Pound and 5 Shillings. The total valuation of the property comes to 4 Pounds and 5 Shillings.

    Thomas would not have been required to pay a tax on this lease, as only those leases valued over 5 Pounds were subject to the tax. In this case, Lord Clonbrock was responsible for paying the tax, as he was the likely owner of the property.

    An “office” in a Griffiths Valuation record could pertain to any type of outbuilding such as a barn, stable, blacksmith shop, factory, piggery, etc.

    The map reference number 2 at the beginning of the record is a location finder for Thomas’s lease on an Ordnance Survey Map of Ballybaun. These Griffiths Ordnance Survey Maps are similar, but not the same as the Ordnance Map of Kileenadeema you saw earlier in this reply.

    Thomas Hardiman is also shown to be leasing only land in common from Lord Clonbrock with 5 other Occupiers in Ballybaun at Map Reference 6. The size of the land is over 20 acres and valued at 8 Pounds and 10 Shillings. Thomas and the other Occupiers would have been required to pay a tax on this property, as it was valued over 5 Pounds, but because they leased the land in common, their individual tax responsibility would be a lot less per person.

    The transcription follows:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 6
    Civil Parish: Ahascragh
    Townland: Ballybaun
    Occupiers: Thomas Hardiman, Catherine Costelloe, Honora Costelloe, James Kilkenny, James Jenkins
    Immediate Lessor: Lord Clonbrock
    Description of Tenement: Land
    Area of Land: 20 Acres, 2 Roods, 8 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 8 Pounds, 10 Shillings
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: -
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 8 Pounds, 10 Shillings
    ____

    The askaboutireland website does not let you copy or link the Ordnance Survey Maps that accompany Griffiths Valuation, at least, I haven’t been able to do so for many years. The Griffiths Valuation Ordnance Survey Maps have the property location numbers printed on them, whereas the similar Ordnance Survey Maps from the GeoHive website, do not have the property location numbers printed on them. But, I can show you where Thomas Hardiman’s property is located in Ballybaun on the Ordnance Survey Map of Ballybaun from the 1837 to 1841 time period. See the map at: https://bit.ly/2X3YDUB

    Once at the map, go to the first letter B in Ballybaun. Above and to the right of the letter B is a square plot of land that is bordered on the east by a road that traverses north and south. This is the location of Map Reference 2, where Thomas Handiman’s lease was situated in Ballybaun.

    A little above this plot of land you’ll see the initials, “osi,” which stand for “Ordnance Survey Ireland.” The letter i is situated almost wholly in one section of land, but the plot of land just east of the letter i at the fold in the map, is Map Reference 6 on the Griffiths Valuation Map, where Thomas and the other Ballybaun Occupiers leased their over 20 acres of land in common.

    You can see this same area of Ballybaun on a modern GeoHive Aerial Premium Transparency at: https://bit.ly/2ADxuQQ

    The area where Thomas Hardiman’s leases were is just to the right of the upper portion of the Menu, and is located north of the R358 road in Ballybaun.

    The house that Thomas leased in Ballybaun at Map Reference 2 in 1855, could have been the house where his son John was born, and in turn, where John and Mary Hardiman’s daughter Dympna, your grandmother, was born in 1897. The land that came with the house, as well as the land at Map Reference 6 that John leased with the other Ballybaun Occupiers, would have been used for farming.

    From the modern GeoHive Aerial Premium Transparency, it appears that this same area is farmland to this day.

    MARY SMYTH/SMITH

    Mary’s age in her 1877 Killeenadeema Catholic Parish marriage record is 20 years old, placing her year of birth circa 1857, too early to have been recorded in a civil birth record. The record further shows at the time of marriage she was living in Bracklough, which I believe, in the modern spelling, is Bracklagh, located about 7 miles east of Killeenadeema. The marriage record also shows that her father was Thomas Smyth.

    In the 1901 census Mary is recorded as being 40 years old, placing her year of birth circa 1861, while in the 1911 census she is 55 years old, placing her year of birth circa 1856.

    Marriages in Ireland traditionally took place in the bride’s parish, and so I looked for Mary’s FMP baptism transcription in the Killeenadeema Parish Church registers for the year 1857, plus and minus 5 years (1852-1862), but did not find it, unfortunately.

    But, I did locate the FMP baptisms of two children in the Killeemnadema Catholic Parish whose father was Thomas. One of these children is Joannes (John) Smyth, who was baptized on 7 February 1858. His father’s first name is transcribed as “Thoma.” His mother is M A Galvin. See the transcription at the following FMP link: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0059110

    A copy of the original baptism record for Joannes Smyth is the second entry up from the bottom of the baptism register at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632942#page/49/mode/1up

    His baptism record spans both pages of the register, and shows that John was born as well as baptized on 7 February 1858. His parents are recorded as “Thomas et M.A. Galvin.” The right hand page of the register shows that the godparents are Joannes and Mary Smyth.

    The second FMP baptism transcription is for Thomas Smyth. He was baptized on 26 December 1861. His father is erroneously transcribed as “?Maria.”. His mother is Anna Galvin. See the transcription at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0059233

    A copy of the original baptism record for Thomas is the 5th entry up from the bottom of the register at:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632942#page/53/mode/1up

    If you enlarge the baptism register to its maximum, you’ll see on the left-hand page that Thomas was not baptized on 26 December, but born on 26 December. The right-hand page shows he was baptized on 29 December.

    Thomas’s parents are recorded as “Thoma et Maria Annes Galvin.”

    Going back to the right-hand page you’ll see that Thomas’s godparents are “Patricius et Margareta Galvin.

    I next looked for but did not find a Killeenadeema marriage record for Thomas Smyth and Maria Galvin.

    The two Smyth baptism records in Killeenadeema are indications, but not proof, that Thomas Smyth and Mary Anne Galvin were also the parents of Mary Smyth.

    John, in any of your research have you come across the surname Galvin?

    I also did not find a Thomas Smyth/Smith in Griffiths Valuation leasing property in Bracklagh/Bracklough, Galway or in Killeenadeema, Galway.

    CONCLUSION

    There are 15 attachments included in the reply. They are:

    Sullivan and Hardiman 1922 Marriage
    GRO App Photocopy
    GRO App legal Purposes
    Anna and Margaret 1906 Deaths
    Dympna hardiman 1897 Birth
    Hardiman and Smyth 1877 Marriage
    Jane Hardiman 1878 Birth
    Patrick Hardiman 1880 Birth
    Thomas Hardiman 1881 Birth
    John Michael Hardiman 1882 Birth
    Joseph Hardiman 1889 Birth
    Anna Maria Hardiman 1892 Birth
    Kate Louisa Hardiman 1894 Birth
    John Hardiman 1920 Death
    Maria Hardiman 1921 Death
    ____

    While your grandparents John and Dympna Hardiman Sullivan may have lived in Kilconnell, Galway in the 20th century, indications are that Dymna’s 19th century roots, according to the information I found, are in the townland of Ballybaun and its variant spellings.

    This has been very interesting research John, and I’m surprised at how many records are available for Dympna Hardiman Sullivan and her immediate Hardiman family in County Galway, though I have to say that finding death records of children is not something I look forward to. But, the deaths of her two sisters are a sad part of your grandmother Dympna’s heritage.

    I am hoping that you or someone in your family can find out who John Sullivan’s mother was, as that information may help with further research into your Sullivan ancestors. Don’t hesitate to write with further information.

    Stay safe during this plague John.

    With Very Best Wishes,

    Dave

    davepat

    Monday 18th May 2020, 01:53PM

    Attached Files

  • Hello Dave,

     

    What can i say, unbelievable amount of research you have provided for me here, im overwhelmed

    cant thank you enough Dave.  If i make any headway on sullivans side of the family i will contact you Dave.

     

    Many thanks

    regards John sullivan

    John

    Monday 18th May 2020, 03:22PM
  • You're welcome John.

    All the Best,

    Dave

    davepat

    Monday 18th May 2020, 05:48PM
  • Hello Dave,

     

    sorry to trouble you again!  but you get any info on the burial place of my grandfather John Sullivan?

     

    kind regards

    John Sullivan

    John

    Tuesday 19th May 2020, 12:57PM
  • Hello John,

    I don’t know where John Sullivan or his wife Dympna are buried. I suspect they would be buried in the church cemetery in Kilconnell. I didn’t know when John Sullivan died until yesterday after doing some further research at the irishgenealogy.ie website.

    His death record shows he died in Kilconnell on 24 March 1966 at the age of 76 years. At the time of death he was married. His occupation had been, “R.I.C. (Retired).” The R.I.C. stands for Royal Irish Constabulary. The cause of death was, “Influenza. Cardiac Toxaemia. Senility + Debility after operation for Prostate 1 yr. ago. Certified.” The person who reported the death to the local assistant registrar was John’s wife “Dympna Sullivan. Widow. Present at death. Kolconnell.” The assistant registrar, Elizabeth Murphy, recorded the death in the Ballinasloe Registration District on 11 May 1966.

    John Sullivan’s death record is attached.

    The Catholic Church in Kilconnell is called Sacred Heart. Your information shows that John and Dympna had lived on the R348 road, near the Franciscan Friary and the Post Office. John and Dympna’s home would have been near the church, as the Sacred Heart Church is just down the road from the Post Office. See the Google Map at: https://is.gd/lOREPG

    Go to the next link for a Google Street View of the church: https://is.gd/aKGxl4

    John, what you can do at this point is send an email to the church secretary, Mrs. Bernie Scally, and ask if there is a burial record for John Sullivan, who died on 24 March 1966 in Kilconnell. You can also ask if there is a burial record for his wife Dympna, though you don’t know when she died. Dympna must have died after 1969, as death records are online until 1969 at irishgenealogy.ie. I looked for her death record but didn’t find it.

    You can also ask where John and Dympna would be buried and where the cemetery is located in Kilconnell.

    Contact information follows:

    Secretary: Mrs Bernie Scally.
    Tel: 091-524305.
    email: sacredheart@parishes.galwaydiocese.ie

    Also see: http://sacredheartgalway.blogspot.com/ and https://www.galwaydiocese.ie/parishes/sacred-heart

    Please let me know if you learn anything about when Dympna died, and if you found out where she and John are buried.

    Good Luck John,

    Dave

    davepat

    Wednesday 20th May 2020, 11:29AM

    Attached Files

  • Hello Dave,

     

    Many thanks for the reply and all the wonderful and helpful information that you've managed to find for me.

    I've sent off an email to the secretary as you advised and will await her reply.

    With regards to Dympna, I've found out that she moved to Birmingham with my uncle John Jackie Sullivan and his wife Molly, I believe this is because she became ill after my uncle and aunt visited her in Ireland! So, I've been lead to believe that Dympna died and was buried in Birmingham in 1967! This has yet to be confirmed because I need to find out how to go about this first.

     

    Many thanks to you Dave its much appreciated.

    kind regards John

     

    John

    Wednesday 20th May 2020, 02:52PM
  • Hello John,

    Many thanks for your quick reply. I’m glad you mentioned that Dympna died in Birmingham in 1967. That’s just the information I needed to locate her General Register Office (GRO) death index at the FreeBMD website. England, like Ireland, has its own General Register Office, located in Southport.

    The index shows that Dympna was 67 when she died and that her death was recorded in the Birmingham Registration District in the March Quarter of 1967. Her death record can be found in Volume 9c, Page 570 of the GRO registers.

    See the index from FreeBMD below:

    Deaths, March Quarter 1967
    Sullivan, Dympna, Age 69
    Registration District: Birmingham
    Volume: 9c, Page 570
    ____

    Ordering Dympna’s death cert online will be the quickest and least expensive way. To find out how to order online, go to the following GRO link: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

    A full death certificate with the Registration District, Volume and Page Number supplied, costs £11.00.

    Ordering a PDF of the death cert online costs £7. With either method, you can pay for the certificate by credit card.

    Before ordering the certificate, you will have to register with the GRO. Registration is free.

    To read the “Frequently Asked Questions about ordering, see: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/faq.asp

    I haven’t ordering a certificate from the GRO in Southport for several years, and I can tell you the price has not gone up. But still, 11 quid is a lot of money.

    Dympna’s death cert should give you the same type of information as found on her husband John’s Irish death cert. Along with her name and age, it will tell you her place of death, her exact date of death, her marital status, occupation, if any, the cause of death, and the person or informant who reported her death to the local district registrar in Birmingham. The informant was likely one of her children, or a hospital administrator if she died in a hospital.

    Please let me know if you receive any new information from Ireland or the UK.

    Thank you again John for your fast reply.

    Dave

    davepat

    Wednesday 20th May 2020, 06:26PM
  • Hello Dave,

     

    Many thanks again for more Data!

    in and earlier bit of correspondence you ask me if i ever came across the surname Galvin, well during other avenues of research

    I located a 2 cousin of mine who is the great niece of my grandmother Dympna Hardiman and she has been on ancestry .com and in the family tree 

     

    she created including all the hardimans ,smyths  i saw a Galvin with details attached .

     

    regards John

    John

    Wednesday 20th May 2020, 07:20PM

    Attached Files

  • You're welcome John. Lots of times when you look at baptism records it's always good to look at the name of the godparents, as the godparents were either related to the parents or friends of the parents. The same goes for witnesses at a marriage. This also holds true for census records, as sometimes you'll see families with different surnames living near one another in the same town who are related by marriage.

    In the meantime, have you made any progress on John Sullivan's origins? I will really need the name of his mother, including her maiden name to pin down your ancestry, otherwise you will never be sure if you have the right Sullivan line, especially if John had been born in County Kerry where the Sullivan name is very common. If John's age of 76 is correct on his 1966 death record, he would have been born about 1890.

    Thanks John,

    Dave

    davepat

    Thursday 21st May 2020, 03:44AM
  • Hello Dave,

     

    I am still working on this bigger challenge.

     

    Hoping to make some headway with his connections with the RIC 

     

    I shall let you know

     

    many thanks

    John

    John

    Friday 22nd May 2020, 10:15AM
  • Thanks John.

    I do hope more information can be found about your Sullivans that way you'll have a more complete picture of both sides of your Sullivan and Hardiman genealogy.

    Good Luck and Best Wishes in the search.

    Dave

    davepat

    Friday 22nd May 2020, 08:32PM
  • Hello Dave,

    A quick update for you regarding the Sullivans from county Kerry

    Because of my grandfathers membership of the RIC I joined a facebook group about the RIC

    And posted his RIC portrait and all the info i had , and a lady who was a member of this group

    did a bit of research work for me then came up with census info and bit of cross referencing

    And traced the family to a place called Cappanlivane,Kilgarvan, CO Kerry  having 5 brothers and 3 sisters

    His father John Sullivan a Farmer And his mother is Called Ellen Sullivan , her Maiden name being sullivan aswell!

    Somebody suggested it may have been sheep farming around Cappanlivane very rural , hilly and the mountain there is

    Called Cappanlivane at 459m in height. 

    Just hoping for another distant relative to call.

    Many Thanks

    Best Wishes. John Sullivan

     

    John

    Sunday 24th May 2020, 03:40PM

    Attached Files

  • Hello John,

    I just picked up your most recent communication. Thank you for that information. Just having the names John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan for your John Sullivan's parents would have been a challenge to uncover more information, but the name of the townland they were from in County Kerry, Cappanlivane, clinched it!!!

    This is a brilliant piece of research on your part.

    Based on your information and the attached 1911 census, it took a couple of minutes to find John's 1889 birth record, which shows he was indeed born in "Cappalavane," and which also shows that his father was John Sullivan and his mother Ellen Sullivan, formerly Sullivan.

    From this point onward I'm going to drop the other research projects I was working on and see what other information I can find about John, his parents, and siblings before he married Dympna Hardiman.

    Once again, I hope you don't mind waiting to get this information.

    Thanks again John for writing. If I have any questions before the research is finished I'll send another communication.

    Dave

    P.S. Some of my ancestors are from Lissyclearig, Kenmare, which is about 13 miles southwest of Cappanlivane.

    davepat

    Sunday 24th May 2020, 07:32PM
  • Hello dave,

    Oh i am very grateful for the further help you are offering , its very kind of you.

    I have been getting help from other good people like yourself. and yes i dont mind waiting at all.

    Only the other day i went on google street maps to take a look around Kenmare and thinking how beautiful 

    it is around this part of ireland.

    Many thanks Dave

    P.s who knows we may be related

    best wishes John

    John

    Sunday 24th May 2020, 07:53PM
  • Hi John,

    Kenmare is a very nice town and I've spent many days there over the years. My Harrington and Foley ancestors are from there and there are Sullivans in their ancestry, and so you never know we may be distant cousins.

    The research is going a little slowly. The 1911 census shows that John and Ellen Sullivan had 11 children, but I've only found the births for 10 of the children, including the birth of your John Sullivan who would go on to marry Dympna Hardiman. You won't believe how many Sullivan children were born in the same area, with the same first names that the children of John and Ellen Sullivan had.

    Right now I'm looking for more information about your great grandparents John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan. Indications are they were not originally from the townland of Cappanlivane, but I need to do more research to make sure.

    I'll write back as soon as I can with as much information as I can find.

    Thanks again John.

    Dave

    davepat

    Tuesday 26th May 2020, 10:10AM
  • Hello Dave,

    Yes this one a bit more challenging, i am patient and gratful for all of this and any info is great to have' so 

    when i visit ireland next year i will be visiting the right places.

    I have found out my grandmother Dympna  was buried in oscott college cemetery ,birmingham and also have the plot number now!

     

    many thanks

    best wishes John

    John

    Tuesday 26th May 2020, 12:42PM
  • Hello John,

    Slowly but surely things are starting to fall into place now. I think you will have quite an adventure when you travel to Ireland next year. Hopefully you'll have located the grave of John Sullivan in Kilconnell by then. If not, just by going there you may be able to find his grave on your own. Hopefully Dympna or her children erected a grave for him before going to the UK.

    I'm just now in the process of looking for your Sullivans in land records, and believe I am gaining ground with that research.

    I'll be in touch, hopefully sooner rather than later. I believe I'm as anxious to learn more about your Sullivans as you are.

    Thanks for writing John.

    Dave

    davepat

    Tuesday 26th May 2020, 08:52PM
  • Hello Dave,

     

    Thats great stuff, looking forward to your findings Dave.

    And yes really looking forward to the ireland tour , i would go this year but i cant see things going back to normal for a good while.

    best wishes

    John

    p.s Can i ask if you are Based in ireland Dave?

    John

    Thursday 28th May 2020, 05:23PM
  • Hi John,

    That will be a fantastic trip when you do go and when tourism opens up. You may be able to get some good deals traveling in Ireland as their tourist industry must be suffering a whole lot. The loss in Euros must be in the millions for the tourist industry, especially the owners of B&Bs.

    I am from the U.S. with ancestors from four different Irish counties, including Kenmare in County Kerry. As you'll see in the forthcoming reply, indications are your Sullivans came from the Kenmare and Templenoe areas.

    Back in 1991 I was staying at a farmhouse bed and breakfast in Templenoe. I used the B&B there as a base to visit my cousins in a section of Kenmare called Lissyclearig. While at Templnoe, the census taker came by, and so I'm recorded, by chance, in the 1991 Irish census. But right now I think the government has a 100 year rule about when census returns can be released because of privacy rights. I think the UK has the same restriction. More and more people are living into their 100s these days, and may not want information about them to be available to the public .

    Unfortunately there is no 1921 census because of the Irish Civil War. The census enumerated after 1921 is the 1926 enumeration. If the 100 year rule is applied, that census would not be released 2027, but there are petitions to release the census early. See: https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/genealogy/1926-irish-census

    Here in the States, I believe there is a 75 year rule. Our latest U.S. census available online is for 1940, the year before the U.S. entered World War II. My dad served in World War II, all the way from North Africa with Patton, allied with Monty (there was a rivalry for you ), to the end of the war in 1945, ending up in Germany.

    Concerning the research, I am in the process of looking for the baptisms of your grandfather's parents, John and Ellen Sullivan, as well as seeing if I can find both sides of the Sullivan families in Irish property tax records. Today is Thursday. I may be done by this weekend, though I don't like to rush things.

    John, I believe you can actually become an Irish citizen. It would be dual citizenship with your UK citizenship. To become an Irish citizen, Irish law states your grandparents or parents had to come from Ireland. People whose great grandparents came from Ireland are not eligible for Irish citizenship. See:
    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/i...

    I hope you and your family are keeping well.

    I'll write back as soon as I've completed the research.

    Dave

    davepat

    Thursday 28th May 2020, 09:32PM
  • Hello John,

    I began the research for John Sullivan by looking for him, his parents, and siblings in the 1911 and 1901 census enumerations, living in Cappanlivane, County Kerry.

    You can view the 1911 census for the Sullivan family at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Kilgarvan/Cappanl...

    Make sure to tick the “Show all information” box to view the full census, which shows that as of 1911 John and Ellen Sullivan had been married for 32 years, and in that time had 11 children, with all 11 children still living. Six of those children, including your 22 year old grandfather John, are in the household.

    John’s father John is shown to be 68 years old, while his wife Ellen is 55 years old. I believe I mentioned in a prior communication that ages in these census returns are not always accurate, when you compare them with other census enumerations taken 10 years earlier or 10 years later.

    You can see this in the 1901 census, which shows that the head of the household, John Sullivan, is 51 years old, 17 years younger than he is in the 1911 census, instead of 10 years younger. See the 1901 census at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kerry/Kilgarvan/Cappanl...

    John’s wife Ellen, in 1901, is shown to be 46 years old. Her age is more consistent with her age 10 years later in the 1911 census, and is just a year difference over the 10 year period.

    The 1901 census shows that 9 children are in the household, including your grandfather, 10 year old John. He is shown to be 22 years old in the 1911 census.

    Based in the 1901 and 1911 census enumerations I found the civil birth records for 10 of John and Ellen Sullivan’s children. The birth records show that all the children were born in Cappanlivane, and that the maiden name of their mother is Sullivan.

    Below are the names, dates of birth and number where that child’s birth is recorded in the register. All the births were recorded in the Kenmare Registration District, and all shows that the father John Sullivan was a “Farmer.”

    These children are:

    Julia Sullivan, 14 February 1878. Number 1
    Timothy Sullivan, 20 January 1880. Number 226
    Philip Sullivan, 15 May 1883. Number 337
    Kate Sullivan, 4 April 1887. Number 247
    John Sullivan, 4 July 1889. Number 210
    Daniel Sullivan, 19 June 1891. Number 377
    Jeremiah Sullivan, 9 July 1893. Number 20
    Ellen Sullivan, 18 June 1895. Number 170
    James Sullivan, 27 July 1897. Number 332
    Margaret Mary Sullivan, 17 March 1900, 3 a.m., Number 19
    ____

    The registrar who recorded Margaret Mary’s birth wrote the time of her birth as well, probably so that the record shows that Margaret was born just 3 hours after the start of St. Patrick’s Day. I haven’t seen too many birth records where the time of birth is recorded.

    By the time the youngest child Margaret was born in 1900, the oldest Sullivan child, Julia, would have been 21 years old, and would have turned 22 in November of 1900.

    The 1911 census shows that John and Ellen Sullivan had been married for 32 years, placing their year of marriage circa 1879. I have found over the years that, like ages in census returns, years a couple were married can often be inaccurate, and so I looked for the marriage of John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan between 1875 and 1880.

    I found two marriages for a John Sullivan and an Ellen Sullivan recorded in the Kenmare Registration District between 1875 and 1880. The first of these took place in the Larhagh/Laragh Catholic Chapel on 9 October 1875. John is shown to be a farmer. No occupation is recorded for Ellen. Both are also shown to have lived in the town of Dromboheli, which is actually spelled Drombohilly. John’s father is Morty Sullivan, a farmer. Ellen’s father is James Sullivan, also a farmer. Morty Sullivan and James Sullivan were witnesses at the marriage. A priest named John O’Sullivan married John and Ellen. This marriage record is attached.

    The second marriage for a John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan took place in the Catholic Chapel of Kilgarvan on February 13, 1877. At the time of marriage John was 26 and Ellen 24.

    At the time of marriage John was a bachelor and a farmer who was residing in Templenoe. His father was Philip Sullivan, a farmer who was, “dead).”

    Ellen was also a farmer. Her residence was Cahir, which is also spelled Caher, and is pronounced, “Care.” Her father is Florence Sullivan, a farmer who was “alive,” when Ellen married. Father M. Sheehan married John and Ellen. The witnesses to the marriage were Daniel Quill and Florence Sullivan.

    This second marriage, I believe, is the marriage of your ancestors John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan. Marriages traditionally took place in the bride’s parish. The townland of Cahir, or Caher, where Ellen was from, was in the Civil Parish of Kilgarvan as well as the Catholic Parish of Kilgarvan. The townland of Cappanlivane was also in the Civil Parish of Kilgarvan.

    On a Google Map, Caher, which is labeled as “Caher Woods,” is only 3.8 miles south of Cappanlivane: https://is.gd/luJYH8

    In turn, Kilgarvan, where the marriage took place, is only 1.8 miles southwest of Caher Woods: https://is.gd/5xrL9I

    Templenoe, where John Sullivan is from, is west of Cappanlivane /Kilgarvan and west of Kenmare, in the Civil Parish and Catholic Parish of Templenoe: https://is.gd/1lifgB

    The other John Sullivan and Ellen Sulivan were from the townland of Drombohilly, which was in the Civil Parish as well as Catholic Parish of Tuosist, located south of Templnoe and Kenmare Bay. They would have either been from Drombohilly Lower or Drombohilly Upper, 19.8 miles southwest of Kilgarvan: https://is.gd/tKUT9k

    Because of the close proximity of Caher (Woods) Kilgarvan, and Cappanlivane, circumstantial evidence implies that the 1877 marriage of John and Ellen in the Kilgarvan Catholic Parish, are your ancestor. They married on February 13, 1877. Their daughter, and first child Julia, was born in Cappanlivane a year and a day later on Valentine’s Day, 14 February 1878.

    The church in Kilgarvan is called St. Patrick’s. See the Google Map showing the location of the church and Kilgarvan: https://is.gd/zR7eCu

    The following link will take you to a Google Street View of St. Patrick’s Church: https://is.gd/pYsAll

    But John, this may not be the church where John and Ellen were married and where their children were baptized. This church, as shown in the Google Map, is west of Kilgarvan Centre.

    But, an ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period shows that the location of the R.C. Chapel was in the middle of town, near the Grave Yard and a “Church (in Ruins).” See the map from GeoHive at: https://bit.ly/2M53Nul

    The R.C. Chapel had been in the same location for years as shown in the Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period: https://bit.ly/2X5Q8te

    The next Google Street View of Kilgarvan shows what may be the location of the old R.C. Church and cemetery: https://is.gd/1Lyt3z

    Here is another Google Street View: https://is.gd/T7qtw8

    Just down the road from the old church and cemetery is a pub you may be interested in: https://is.gd/2tb64d

    That’s how you spell your surname in Irish John.

    Many of the buildings in the next Google Street View probably existed when your ancestors visited Kilgarvan from Cappanlivane: https://is.gd/voczQV

    KILGARVAN CHURCH REGISTERS

    I next wanted to see if I could find the Kilgarvan Catholic Church marriage record for John Sullivan and Julia Sullivan. I found the transcription of their marriage at the Find My Past (FMP) website, which shows they were married in the Kilgarvan Parish on 13 February 1877, which is the same date of as found in their civil marriage record. You can view the transcription at: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1212388%2F1

    The FMP transcription shows that both John and Ellen resided in Caher.

    A copy of the original Kilgarvan church marriage record can be accessed at: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634322#page/114/mode/1up

    The marriage record is on the right-hand register page, 3rd entry up from the bottom. The entry is very difficult to read because the handwriting is very bad and the image is faded. It would be difficult to determine who the witnesses were if we didn’t already have a copy of the original civil marriage record, which shows the witnesses were Daniel Quill and Florence Sullivan.

    The church marriage record is a little different in that it only records the townland of “Cahir,” but not Templenoe, where John Sullivan had been living before the marriage.

    I next looked for the baptism records for the children of John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan, beginning with Julia, whose attached civil birth record shows she was born in “Cappalivane,” on 14 February 1878. The FMP website does not have a transcription of the baptism, and so I looked for a copy of Julia’s original baptism record at the National Archives of Ireland website, and found a very curious entry, which is very difficult to read because of the terrible handwriting, fading of the page, and also because the entry is written in Latin.

    The baptism is the 4th entry down from the top of the right-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634322#page/82/mode/1up

    The record does show that Julia Sullivan was baptized on 14 February 1878. This is the same date that John and Ellen’s daughter was born. However, while in the baptism record her father’s name looks like the Latin name for John, “Joannis,” with the last name of Sullivan, it also looks like the mother’s first name is “Johanna,” also with the last name of Sullivan. There is also a place-name in the baptism records which looks like “Curraghlass.” The names of the sponsors are very difficult to read.

    I knew from previous experience that along with providing civil registration records of births, marriages, and deaths, the irishgenealogy.ie website also provides for free, Catholic as well as Protestant parish register transcriptions, and also in many cases, links to copies of original parish registers for select counties and parishes in Ireland. Dublin City, as well as portions of Cork, County Carlow and County Kerry Catholic and Protestant parish registers have been transcribed by irishgenalogy.ie. See: https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/church-records/about/what-church-record...

    I found the baptism transcription for Julia Sullivan at irishgenealogy.ie, which also transcribes Julia’s parents as John Sullivan and Johanna Sullivan of Curraghglass. The godparents are Florence Sullivan and Mary Donoghue. A copy of the original baptism record however, has not been imaged or available for access from irishgenealogy.ie

    See the transcription below:

    Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KILGARVAN
    Baptism of JULIA SULLIVAN of CURRAGHGLASS on 14 February 1878

    Name JULIA SULLIVAN
    Date of Birth 14 February 1878 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
    Address CURRAGHGLASS
    Father JOHN SULLIVAN
    Mother JOHANNA SULLIVAN

    Further details in the record
    Child Denomination RC
    Father Occupation NR

    Sponsor 1 FLORENCE SULLIVAN
    Sponsor 1 Address NR
    Sponsor 2 MARY DONOGHUE
    Sponsor 2 Address NR
    Priest NR

    About the record

    Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
    N/R N/R 159 KY-RC-BA-290790

    The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.
    ____

    Julia’s sponsor, or godfather, is Florence Sullivan. We know from John and Ellen’s civil marriage record that Ellen’s father was Florence Sullivan. The godfather may be her brother.

    I think this Julia Sullivan may be the daughter of your John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan, but I can’t be 100 percent positive of that, even though we know that the first child of John and Ellen Sullivan was their daughtrer Julia born in 1878.

    The priest who recorded this baptism may have confused two Sullivan families, who may have been related, living in close proximity with one another, as I found that a Jeremiah Sullivan and a Anne Sullivan were married on the same day and year (13 February 1877) as John and Ellen in the Roman Catholic Chapel of Kilgarvan. They had the same witnesses to the marriage, Daniel Quill and Florence Sullivan. But the difference between the marriage of John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan is that Jeremiah’s father is also Jeremiah, while Anne’s father was Patrick Sullivan.

    The residence of the groom at the time of marriage was “Curraghglass,” and Johanna’s residence, Rosseighteragh.

    The names Anne and Johanna were interchangeable with one another.

    The marriage of Jeremiah and Anne is the first one recorded in the same marriage register where John and Ellen’s is recorded. This register, as noted earlier, is attached to this reply.

    On the Google Map at the following link you’ll see that Cappanlivane is in close proximity to Carraglass North and Curraglass South: https://is.gd/rtgkM5

    I did not find the baptism transcriptions for any other children of John Sullivan and Johnanna Sullivan, or for children of John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan in Curraghglass/Curraglass at the irishgenealgy.ie website.

    But I did uncover the baptism transcriptions for two children of John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan of “Cappalivane.” These are for the 1880 baptism of Timothy and the 1887 baptism for Catherine. Both transcriptions from the irishgenealogy.ie website are below:

    Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KILGARVAN
    Baptism of TIMOTHY SULLIVAN of CAPPALIVANE on 27 January 1880

    Name TIMOTHY SULLIVAN
    Date of Birth 27 January 1880 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
    Address CAPPALIVANE
    Father JOHN SULLIVAN
    Mother HELEN SULLIVAN

    Further details in the record
    Child Denomination RC
    Father Occupation NR

    Sponsor 1 TIMOTHY SULLIVAN
    Sponsor 1 Address NR
    Sponsor 2 JULIE MCCARTHY
    Sponsor 2 Address NR
    Priest NR

    About the record
    Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
    N/R N/R 181 KY-RC-BA-290967

    The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

    Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
    ____

    Area - KERRY (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - KILGARVAN
    Baptism of CATHERINE SULLIVAN of CAPPALIVANE on 12 April 1887

    Name CATHERINE SULLIVAN
    Date of Birth 12 April 1887 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
    Address CAPPALIVANE
    Father JOHN SULLIVAN
    Mother HELEN SULLIVAN

    Further details in the record
    Child Denomination RC
    Father Occupation NR
    Sponsor 1 RICHARD CRONIN
    Sponsor 1 Address NR
    Sponsor 2 JULIE SULLIVAN
    Sponsor 2 Address NR
    Priest NR

    About the record
    Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
    N/R N/R 257 KY-RC-BA-291568

    The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.

    Source Information: irishgenealogy.ie
    ____

    John, this reply is getting very long as you can see, and so I am sending it now with attachments, but will have more information about John and Ellen Sullivan in a forthcoming reply.

    This reply includes 12 attachments:

    Julia Sullivan 1878 birth
    Timothy Sullivan 1880 birth
    Philip Sullivan 1883 birth
    Kate Sullivan 1887 birth
    John Sullivan 1889 birth’
    Daniel Sullivan 1891 birth
    Jeremiah Sullivan 1893 birth
    Ellen Sullivan 1895 birth
    James Sullivan 1897 birth
    Margaret Sullivan 1900 birth’
    Sullivan and Sullivan 1875 marriage
    Sullivan and Sullivan 1877 marriage
    ____

    Hopefully I’ll have another reply this weekend.

    Dave

    davepat

    Friday 29th May 2020, 07:27PM

    Attached Files

  • Hi again John

    Finding the individual baptism records for John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan will be circumstantial, as we do not know what the names of their mothers were.

    Though I cannot prove it conclusively, the best evidence I came up with indicates that John and Ellen were married in Kilgarvan in 1877, as noted in the last reply. This marriage record shows that John’s residence at the time of marriage was Templenoe, and that his father was Philip. Ellen was residing in Cahir, also spelled Caher. Her father was Florence.

    Marriages took place traditionally in the Bride’s parish, and Cahir/Caher was in the Civil Parish of Kilgarvan. See: https://is.gd/Lc1wqm

    I found that Caher Woods is less than four miles from Cappanlivane where John and Ellen and their children are living according to the 1901 and 199 census returns.

    The other John and Ellen Sullivan marriage record that I found, as noted in the last reply, shows the couple were married in 1875, in the Catholic Chapel of “Larhagh,”and that their residence was “Drumboheli,” (Drumbohilly). Larhagh is a reference to either Lauragh Lower or Lauragh Upper, both of which were in the Civil, Parish of Tuosist. Drumbohilly was also located in the Civil Parish of Tuosist.

    A Google Map shows that Drumbohilly is 23.6 miles southwest of Cappanlivane.

    It is based on the close proximity of Cappanlivane and Caher Woods, as well as the year of the marriage (1877 verses 1875), that I think it is more feasible that your John and Ellen Sullivan were married in 1877. In addition, their first child Julia was born in 1878, just a year after the marriage of her parents.

    The 1911 census show that John and Ellen had been married for 32 years. If accurate, this places their year of marriage circa 1879, much closer to the 1877 year of marriage than to the 1875 year of marriage.

    The 1877 marriage record shows that John’s father was Philip, and that John’s residence was Templenoe. It’s not clear if Templenoe is a reference to the Civil Parish of Templenoe or the townland of Templenoe, in County Kerry.

    The marriage also shows that Ellen’s father was Florence, and that her residence was “Cahir,” also spelled “Caher.” I had to be careful with this location, as there was a Civil Parish also called Caher, but Kilgarvan was not located in the Civil Parish of Caher, but in the Civil Parish of Kilgarvan. It is not unusual to find towns with the same names in the same counties, but in different civil and Catholic parishes.

    I cannot count on the ages of John and Ellen in the 1901 and 1911 census records or their ages in the 1877 marriage record, as these may not be accurate. But the ages may be approximate.

    I started the search looking for the baptism of a John Sullivan in the Templenoe Catholic Parish in the 1840s and 1850s. The Templenoe Parish Church, was actually combined with the Kenmare Catholic Church, and were known as the Parish of Templenoe and Kenmare, or Templenoe, Kenmare and Dourus. See: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0666

    I know that Kenmare has its own Catholic Church, but I wasn’t sure, in this point in the research, if Templenoe did have its own church in the 1850s or earlier.

    I actually found the baptism transcriptions for two children named John Sullivan, with the same parents, which means the older of the two children had died. The parents were Philippi Sullivan and Juluisiana McCarthy. Julusiana would be the Latin for Julia

    The first born child, “Johamam,” in the FMP baptism transcription, was baptized on 9 January 1848. See the transcription at: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5422715

    A copy of the original baptism record is the 4th entry down from the top of the right-had register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634290#page/111/mode/1up

    The first name of John’s mother looks more like “Juliany,” than Julusiana.

    John’s godparents are Johanam Sullivan and Honora McCarthy. They were probably the brother and the sister of the parents. The residence of John and his parents is not recorded in the baptism register.

    The second child of Philip and Julia named John was baptized on 18 November 1855. Once again, first names in the transcriptions are in the Latin. The transcription can be viewed at the following FMP link: https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F5840604

    The baptism is the 8th entry down from the top of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634290#page/164/mode/1up

    Once again, the mother’s first name looks like Juliany. The godparents are Daniel Coffey and Thomas McCarthy. Just to the right of the mother Juliany’s name is a word that appears to be, “Commnahille.” The actual name of this town is Coomnakilla. There are actually a Coomnakilla North and a Coomnakilla South, which were located in the Civil Parish of Templenoe. See the IreAtlas entries at: https://is.gd/GHgtu1

    To see if I could find more evidence of the Sullivan family living in Coomnakilla North or Coomnakilla South, I looked for Philip Sullivan in the Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation. The valuation for the Templenoe and surrounding civil parishes was completed by the year 1852.

    Griffiths Valuation shows that Philip Sullivan leased a house, office and land from Immediate Lessors named the Reps. of the Rev. D. Mahony. The “Reps of…” means that the Rev Mahony was deceased, and that others, perhaps relatives, were managing his estate.

    Philip leased over 80 acres of land valued at 8 Pounds and 15 Shillings. The house and office were valued at 10 Shillings. The total valuation of Philip’s lease was 9 Pounds and 5 shillings. He would have paid a percentage of the value of the lease toward the tax.

    The Griffiths Valuation transcription below comes from the askaboutireland website:

    No. and Letters of Reference to Map: 5
    Civil Parish: Templenoe
    Townland: Coomnakilla North
    Occupier: Philip Sullivan
    Immediate Lessor: Reps of Revd. D. Mahony
    Description of Tenement: House, office & land
    Area of Land: 80 Acres, 3 Roods, 32 Perches
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Land: 8 Pounds, 15 Shillings
    Rateable Annual Valuation of Buildings: 10 Shillings
    Total Annual Valuation of Rateable Property: 9 Pounds, 5 Shillings
    ____

    The Rev. Mahony may have been one of the local Church of Ireland clergy.

    The other 8 people leasing property in Coomnakilla North from the Reps. of the Rev. D. Mahony were:

    Jeremiah Morley
    Timothy Meara
    Bartholomew Palmer
    John Shea
    Jeremiah Shea
    John Sullivan
    Dan Sullivan (Mathw): Means Daniel was the son of Matthew Sullivan
    Michael Doyle
    ____

    John Sullivan and Dan Sullivan were likely related to Philip.

    A Google Map shows that Coomnakilla North is 4.2 miles northwest of Templenoe, going through Coomnakilla South: https://is.gd/gXv5tp

    To see Coomnakilla North in a Google Street View, go to: https://is.gd/GYs8f7

    For Coomnakilla North on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period, go to: https://bit.ly/2TQZozo

    You’ll have to click on “Close Menu” to view the full map.

    If you drag the map upward you’ll come to Coomnakilla South.

    The following link will take you to a Google Street View of Templenoe: https://is.gd/tnFw2C

    The Church in Templenoe is called “Our Lady of the Assumption.” You can see the location of the “Templenoe Church” on a Google Map: https://is.gd/CN2jWE

    For a Google Street View of the church see: https://is.gd/IWPJNr

    The church looks like it may be of more recent construction, but an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period shows that the R.C. Chapel is in the same location when you compare the map with the Google Map: https://bit.ly/3ceS0UX

    After locating the baptisms for the two children named John Sullivan, I looked for the FMP marriage transcription for Philip Sullivan and Julia McCarthy, but didn’t find it.

    John, once again I have to note that it is circumstantial evidence that the John Sullivan born in Coomnakilla, Templenoe, is your ancestor. If we had the first and last names of his mother, we would know for sure.

    ELLEN SULLIVAN

    I also looked for the baptism of Ellen Sullivan in the 1840s and 1850s. In her 1877 marriage record Ellen’s age is 24, while her residence was Cahir. Her father is Florence Sullivan. As noted previously, the Cahir/Caher townland where Ellen lived was situated in the Kilgarvan Civil Parish, though there is a Civil Parish named Caher in County Kerry.

    If her age of 24 in 1877 is accurate, Ellen would have been born circa 1853.

    I didn’t find a Kilgarvan baptism record for an Ellen Sullivan circa 1853, but I did locate the baptism of a Helena Sullivan, who was baptized in 1855 in the Kilgarvan Catholic Parish. Her parents are Florence Sullivan and Maria Donohue. Helena is Latin. One of the alternate names for Helena is Ellen.

    Her baptism record shows that the residence for her and her family was “Cahir.” But I later discovered that Florence Sullivan and Maria Donohue had another daughter named Helena baptized in the Kilgarvan Catholic Parish in 1864. The residence of the family in this baptism is also Cahir. This means that the Helena Sullivan baptized in 1853 would have died by 1864 when the second child named Helena was baptized.

    The Helena Sullivan baptized in 1864 would have been too young to have married John Sullivan in 1877.

    This is another example of how we would need the first and last name of Ellen’s mother to see if we can locate her baptism record. I have the same challenge in my own ancestry, as I don’t know the maiden name of my great grandfather’s mother, and so over the course of the past 30 years, I have not been able to identify where my great grandfather was born in County Cavan.

    DEATH RECORDS

    Moving forward in time I wanted to see if I could find the civil registration death records for John and Ellen Sullivan. They would have died sometime after they were enumerated in Cappanlivane in the 1911 census, which was taken on April 1. I didn’t know how long they lived passed 1911, and so I had to go through many Sullivan death records recorded in the Kenmare Registration District to look for them. If they didn’t die in Cappanlivane, there would really not be an ideal way to identify the John and Ellen Sullivan in your direct line because of the numbers of people named John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan recorded in the civil death records following 1911.

    I didn’t find the death record for John, but did for Ellen. Ellen Sullivan died in Cappanlivane on 26 September 1923 at the age of 68 years. She is shown to have been married at the time of death and a “Farmer’s wife.” The cause of death was “Heart disease. No Med attn.” The person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the local registrar was the daughter, Ellen Sullivan of Cappanlivane.” The registrar L.T. Moore, recorded Ellen’s death in the Kenmare Registration District on 29 November 1923. The death record is attached, and is the only entry in the death register. If her age of 68 in 1923 is accurate, Ellen would have been born circa 1855.

    It is disappointing that I couldn’t pinpoint the baptism records for John Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan in County Kerry.

    CONCLUSION

    John, this has been one very interesting journey finding information about your Hardiman and Sullivan ancestors, which means you’ll have your own unique journey when you go to Ireland. Your ancestors are associated with locations that span the width of Ireland, such as Howth, Dublin, in the east, where John Sullivan and Dympna Hardiman married, to County Galway where Dympna and her family were from, and County Kerry where John Sullivan and his family were from. Do you think you’ll want to go coast to coast in one trip?

    Planning to go by mapping out your route and determining where you want to stay along the way is just half the fun. In my case I had added excitement because I had to get used to driving on the left hand side of the road, and using the left-lane as the travel lane, and right lane as the passing lane, whereas here in the States, the left lane is the passing lane. I also had to familiarize myself with the many roundabouts in Ireland, which are not widespread here in the U.S. Where they do exist in the U.S., we call them traffic circles, but that term is too bland. I like name roundabout much better than traffic circle.

    With Kind Regards,

    Dave

    davepat

    Monday 1st June 2020, 10:48AM

    Attached Files

  • Hello Dave,

    I am overwhelmed Dave, what can i say for what you have done for me truly grateful for all your dedicated meticulous work

    You have opened up so much for me , and just added more to the excitement  of my visit to ireland.

    We plan to visit gby getting a ferry across to rosslare driving to clonmel tipperary first go on through cork to kerry cappanlivane, kilgarvan kenmare, templenoe etc ring of kerry ,kilarney national park

    then up to galway kilconnell ,ballybun then dublin howth , down the east coast home  in a week?  i wanted to visit conemarra  because my father spoke of it being beautiful like kerry  and through mayo to sligo because i want to see benbulben  all too much i know for one week may have to do 2 visits.

    many thanks again dave if you ever need to visit stay in uk Kent we are an hour from london please let me know

    very best wishes. John Sullivan

     

     

    John

    Monday 1st June 2020, 10:01PM
  • You're welcome John.

    That sounds like a very good trip. It will be a lot to do in one week especially if you want to explore your ancestral towns in Kerry and Galway. I've done a few whirlwind trips to Ireland like that and it was a challenge to have to move from one B&B to another every day so that I could accomplish the itinerary I set. But, it will be exciting for you anyway. You will really like Kenmare. It is a nice little town. The Irish name for Kenmare is Neidin, meaning, "Little Nest."

    Paddy Reilly does an excellent version of the song Neidin, which you can listen to at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA6qQUrjiqU

    If ever in the UK I'll contact you and we can meet up in Kent and down a few jars of porter or bitter to toast our ancestors in Ireland.

    Best of Luck John. It's been a pleasure.

    Have a safe trip when the time comes.

    Dave

    davepat

    Tuesday 2nd June 2020, 08:33PM