Thomas Wilson (again) new info

There was a marriage between a Thomas Wilson and Mary Breen in Fermanagh on 28th August 1846. You might want to look at that to see if the information fits your Thomas. You can view the certificate on-line on the GRONI site for £2.50.

Hello Elwyn

If thsi is the families i am thinking of, the Bryans came from Lumg near Clogher. The families the Wilson got involved with was Richey, Armstrong.

The Wilson's of Derryhillagh, Gortmesson, Waternerry and Derrykeeghan had connection with theabove. 

regards

Colin Wilson

Colin,

Thanks for the info. It’s Julia who is interested in the family. I am simply offering her advice on where to look. She hasn't responded to my message of 26th July so far. I did have a look at the 1846 marriage on rootsireland, and that Thomas was from Gortmessan. That’s the same townland as he gave when he remarried in 1872, so that would seem to be his first marriage. (Mary Ann Breen was from Relagh. Her father Robert is listed farming there in Griffiths Valuation in 1862).

There were 4 Wilson households in Gortmessan in 1901, 1 of which was Church of Ireland and 3 Methodist. In earlier years though, before Methodism became established in Ireland, they would have been Church of Ireland.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Ballydoolagh/Gortmesson/

Relagh is in Magheracross parish. Their Church of Ireland records start in 1800. Gortmessan is in Derryvullan where there are 2 main churches. Derryvullan North has records from 1803. Derryvullan South lost it’s earlier records in the 1922 fire in Dublin, and has nothing before the 1870s. So those are the records I would look at if trying to trace the Wilson & Breen families. Breen is likely an alternative spelling of Brien/Bryan etc but it;s how the name is spelled in botht the 1846 marriage certificate and in Griffiths VAluation so it needs to be borne in mind when searchign records. By 1901 the name was Brien. The fmaily were Methodist then but would originally have been COI. 1 Brien household in relagh in 1901: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Newparton/Re…

Hello Julia and Elwyn, 

My gg Uncle Christopher and his wife Sarah lived on house 6 Gortmesson in 1901.

Before that they lived Derrykeeghan Mill Townland, rented it out to the Johnston family who now own it. 

The Bryans originally came from Lung, a next generation lived at Carnahinney, next to Clogher in Tyrone.

The Wilson's from Gortmesson, Derryhillagh, Derrykeeghan and Waternerry (all in about 2klm circle). are 

all related. Having been doing DNA research for years now on my Wilson family. This group has a very distant DNA

very different to the the majority of people with a Wilson surname. The dna has avery exciting story.

Our group has all been tested with FTDNA y700 test and family finder.

If anyone is searching for a link do family finder and wirk up to y700.

The Cof E church Garvary has records as many attended that church, if Methodist they went to the Methodust Church in Enniskillen.

My family went to Cof E in Enniskillen and some went to the Methodist church as well like Christopher Wilson.  His brother William donated the large lamp 

at St Macartins Cathedral in Enniskillen.

A Thomas Wilson also lived next door at Derryhillagh. 500m away.

regards

Colin Wilson

 

Attached Files

Hi Everyone,

Thank you so much for your help. I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond as I have been in and out of town multiple times since my original post. 

  Elwyn,   I went on GRONI and bought the Mary Breen record you suggested. Then I tried to find a death certificate for her. I couldn't find one that would have her dying at around the right time (prior to Thomas' remarriage) and at a young age. So I'm unsure if she is the correct person.

Colin, my Dad and I are both on FTDNA. My Dad has done a YDNA test but his line would not be Wilson as that was his Grandmother's maiden name. We have family finder too. Maybe we can see if we have any FF matches. Do you run the Wilson surname project? If so maybe my Dad can join briefly just to do the FF advanced search.

I have since come across a letter from my Grandpa's cousin that has some description of where the Wilson's lived. The writing is difficult to read and I don't know the local names of counties etc so please feel free to make better guesses than I have." Mrs Albert D Connolly living on Townhall st (May 1962) gave them the business address of Ms. Lily Burns partner in W. Chambers and Co. 20 Church st. That very same Ms. Burns took us out to Gortmsson. She and her sister Sally live in the house Florrie (Wilson)'s husband built-in 1920 across the street from the old homestead. Their older brother Stewart, who lives nearby, joined us. He took me out and showed me the exact site of the old home. One gets cornerstones, the old well and retaining walls directly behind where it stood- also the small building behind the Burn's home where Thomas Wilson in his last days lived and died. Stewart also gave me the exact location of the old Methodist Church on Church st. Enniskillen which my mother attended. It was built in 1864. All of this was very heartwarming."

Thank you all for your help!

Elwyn,

The 1901 census links you sent- the second Wilson down is the correct family with 4 people living at 1 Gortsmesson- Thomas, Jane, Charlotte and William Wilson. They would have had one son who was younger (I believe) than William- "Uncle Bennie" as he was called by my Grandpa. I'm not sure why he isn't listed in the census.

Thanks for all of your help.

Julia

Elwyn the link to the 1901 census you shared for the Brien family in Relagh- Mary Ann Brien (Head) John Robert, Angel, Elizabeth (all adult children) is interesting because one of the names of my Great Grandmother's sisters was Angel- perhaps named after her Aunt??

Julia

Julia,

I am fairly sure the 1846 marriage is Thomas Wilson’s first marriage. The townland, his occupation and father’s name all fit. If Mary Ann died between 1846 and 31.12.1863 you won’t get a death certificate. They were only introduced in 1864.

By 1901 your household was Methodist but we don’t know when they changed to that denomination. Colin says they are likely to have attended Enniskillen Methodist church. Their baptism records start in 1823, and there’s a copy in PRONI. Their marriages start in 1864 but will also be on-line on the GRONI site. Methodists don’t keep burial records.

Methodism took a lot longer to become established in Ireland as a separate denomination than in England. In Ireland there was considerable resistance to separating from the Church of Ireland. It was 1815 before Methodists agreed to conduct their own baptisms. However because of continuing loyalty and other factors, many continued to use the Church of Ireland for sacraments for years after this and it was 1871 before all Methodists routinely performed their own baptisms.

For marriages, the earliest ceremonies conducted by a Methodist Minister in Ireland that I am aware of, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square, the first Methodist church in Ireland). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers in Ireland (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So the shortage of Ministers contributed to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland. In addition, in the early years, many Methodist Meeting Houses were not licensed for marriages so that too contributed to couples marrying in the Church of Ireland.

So to summarise, you are unlikely to find many Methodist baptisms before 1820. Few marriages before the 1840s and only a handful for many years after that. If there are no Methodist records in the location you are interested in, I would search the Church of Ireland instead, as that’s the most likely place to find the relevant event.

Not many Methodist Meeting Houses have graveyards and so they may be buried in public or Church of Ireland graveyards (which are open to all denominations).

Colin says that if Church of England/Ireland the family is likely to have attended either Garvary Church or St McCartan’s. Unfortunately their early records were both destroyed in the 1922 fire and they have nothing before about 1877 now.

You have given details of 3 children born after 1864 to Thomas & Mary Ann, ie Margaret Jane 11th Feb. 1865, George & Elizabeth (no dates known). However I checked the birth for Margaret Jane. There is a birth on that date registered in Enniskillen, but the parents were Thomas Wilson and Margaret Livingstone and they lived in Mullyknock. So not your family. I can’t see any children born to Thomas and Mary Ann between 1864 and 1872 in the statutory records and so suspect she died before 1864. That could explain why you can’t find her death certificate.

Attached Files

Hi Elwyn,

Thanks for explaining all of that to me. The Margaret Jane Wilson is my Great Grandmother. All the info I have on the family is through her son (my Grandpa) and his sister. So I am sure that her Mother lived past 1865. Margaret Jane's younger brother George A. Wilson (1867-circa1959) had a Grandson that my Dad is a DNA match to. We also have DNA matches to her older brother, Alexander's, descendants, and her older sister, Mary Ann Wilson Pollock's, descendants. 

I had come across the Wilson/Lingstone marriage too but my Great Aunt was sure her Gandma's maiden name was Brien, or O'Brien or similar. They did live with her for a time so I would think that she wouldn't be mixed up with Livingstone but who knows.

I'm not sure what to do next. I sure appreciate all of your help and knowledge!!

Julia

Julia,

It’s hard to get away from the fact that we cannot find any children born in the period 1864 to 1872 to parents named Wilson and Breen/Brien (or similar). It’s easy to check all the Enniskillen births in that period on the GRONI site as it helpfully shows mother’s previous name(s).    Plus you can’t find a death certificate for Mary Ann either, 1864 – 1872.  To me, both of those factors point to her dying before 1864.

If Mary Ann Breen was married in 1846 she could easily have produced 7 children between 1847 and 1863. It’s possible that your information about the order of births is correct but some of the years are wrong. Clearly the 1865 Margaret Jane is to another couple and so can be discounted. There’s then no proof, as I see it, that any of the children were born after 1864.  Ages on death certificates are notoriously unreliable but Margaret Jane’s death in Dublin in 1930 gives her age as 71, so born c1859. So perhaps that’s correct and she was followed by George & Elizabeth 1860 -1863? George doesn’t have a birth certificate, so what proof is there that he was born in 1867? Perhaps it might have been 1862?

Farmers tended to be able to afford a gravestone so one possibility for you is to search for Mary Ann’s gravestone, starting perhaps at Garvary Church of Ireland. Another possibility is to search the Enniskillen Methodist records (which should cover the years you are interested in) in PRONI to try and find the children’s baptisms.  That could resolve who was born when, unless they were baptised at Garvary Church of Ireland, whose records for that period were burned.

Finally, I found a marriage for Elizabeth Wilson. She married Robert Dundas, a shopkeeper from Derrygonnelly, on 30.7.1880. She gave her age as “full age” which, if correct meant she was 21 or over, and so born before 1859. And she was reportedly the youngest of the 7 children, was she not? She could not have been born in the late 1860s if she was married in 1880.

Elizabeth married at Garvary Church of Ireland (helpfully confirming that this may be the family church, or if Methodist that they still used the COI for marriages). 2 children   born to the couple: Unnamed female 7.9.1882 and Robert Wilson Dundas 23.5.1884 both born Derrydonnelly. I don’t see the family in the 1901 census and so suspect they may have left Ireland.

I think this may be Robert Dundas and his son Robert in the 1911 census. Robert appears to have been mistranscribed as Joseph. I think Robert’ senior’s occupation is “county posting establishment”.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Enniskillen_South/Wellington_Place/516699/

I looked for Elizabeth’s death but could not locate it, nor could I see the family in the 1901 census.

Robert senior died 19.2.1919 in Enniskillen Workhouse Infirmary of heart failure.

 

 

Julia and Elwyn

St Macartins in Enniskillen still have the records from the early 1600's  until 1886.

Having been there and read them a few times, they do exist, i will look at them in my records to see if i can find anything for you

regards

Colin

Attached Files

Thank you so much Colin. Here is what I think I've done. I managed to be convinced at some point that Margaret Livingstone must be my relative. I know now that was wrong and had taken her name out of my tree but had mistakenly left the birth info for that woman's daughter Margaret Jane Wilson in my Great Grandmothers file (what a mess I've made!) I do not know the death date, of my Great great grandma (Breen - married to Thomas Wilson) or the birthdate of my Great Grandma Margaret Jane. The thing I do know is that the woman (Breen) married to Thomas Wilson died around when my Dad's grandma was 8 years old. Thank you both so much for sticking through this with me. I feel I have gotten myself in a very muddled state. Most of the records I have are from the second family of Thomas Wilson and Jane Carruthers (and their Children).

I will attach what I do have. (I'm not sure if the Alexander Wilson is my Alexander Wilson or not. The written list was made by my Grandfather.

Thank you for everything!!

Julia

Julia,

I think you are correct. You were fixed on Margaret Jane being born in 1865 (and having 2 younger siblings). Once we acknowledge the 1865 birth is probably the wrong lady, then that opens the way for your Margaret Jane to be born in the 1850s. As I mentioned previously, her sister Elizabeth – reportedly the youngest of the children - married in 1880, so she really has to have been born in the late 1850s, or early 1860s at the latest. She could not be born in the late 1860s as she’d only have been 11 or 12 when she married.   I think all the children of the first marriage were born in the period 1846 – 1863. I think Thomas’s first wife died before 1864.

Your list says that Elizabeth was 4 when her mother died.  I suspect therefore Elizabeth was born c 1859 (to make her full age when she married in 1880) and her mother died c 1863. Certainly before 1864 as there is no death certificate.

Colin’s going to have a look at St McCartin’s records for you so that may throw something up. According to the PRONI catalogue, this is a summary of the records St McCartins has:

“[Formerly known as Enniskeen or Inniskeen]

[Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin]

Extracts of baptisms, 1667-1789, marriages, 1668- 1794, and burials, 1667-1781; burials, 1879-1907 and 1941-50;vestry minutes, 1731-1920; copy deeds, 1796-9; select vestry minutes, 1871-80; register of church members, 1871 and 1946-50; preachers’ book, 1895-1928.

Extracts from baptism, marriage and burial registers, 1666-1826.

Printed copy of Old Enniskillen Vestry Book, with extracts of births, marriages and deaths, 1666-c.1797.

Extracts from vestry minutes, 1666-1912, which include some baptism, marriage and burial entries.

Baptisms, 1861-; marriages, 1845-. (In local custody)”.

NB In local custody means those particular records are still held by the church. PRONI doesn’t have a copy. However the marriages are on-line on the GRONI site, so it’s only the baptisms from 1861 onwards that have to be accessed at the cathedral.

On the face of it there are no baptisms for the 1840s or 1850s but perhaps that’s wrong.  And perhaps 1 or 2 of the younger children appear in the baptisms for 1861 onwards (but I don't think there will be any because if the mother died 4 years later, that would be post 1864 and there ought to be a death certificate). Let’s see what Colin finds.

Hello Julia, 

All records are at proni,

Alexander leased land at Gortmesson, Derryhillagh and Waternerry.

I would be very surprised if you are not family as i have been involved a Wilson DNa project focused on that area for a number of years now.

The earliest recorded Wilson was a guard and Enniskillen Castle aboiut 1618. The topped mountain Wilson's (Not far from our group) we think may have ealier family, one retired to Waternerry.

 

We have broken them down to generations distance and in 5 of we have found the common ancetor from the early 1700's, Had the ibformation to share with teh 4 others,

We know we share a common ancestors one or 2 steps back for 4 more. We have found common surnames that the family married into in Australia, Ireland, Canada, and the USA.

Would highly recommend you have a famytreedna family finder test as that is where our group dna is

regards
colin

Julia

The first Thomas Wilson was at Topped mountain in the 1600's and was a Corn Miller and Flax Grower as was my family.

His descedant moved down toward Enniskillen to Waternerry,  Cold and  Misty up there last visit, very picturesque.

please contact me on colinwilson.aust@gmail.com

regards

Colin