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Good morning, I would be most grateful if a volunteer could assist/advise me on the following inquiry/request.

A marriage for William O'neill who was born/baptised  at St Andrews Catholic Church Dublin in 1860. Parents Thomas O'neill and Sarah Weeks. Family was living at the time at 14 City Quay. Thomas and Sarah  immigrated to NewZealand in 1875 leaving behind three Sons Joseph, Mark and William. I have marriages for Joseph and Mark but to date nothing for William

 

Kind regards

Genda

Glenda

Thursday 12th May 2022, 08:24PM

Message Board Replies

  • If this William lived to adulthood and stayed in Ireland then the civil BMD records on IrishGenealogy would be the place to start - marriages are often best as they give more details which you can use to compare with the known details. e.g. father's name and occupation, residence of the groom, and sometimes names of witnesses.

    Do you have occupation details for the father and any other addresses for the family, and details on the other two sons, did they both stay and marry in Ireland - was William a witness at either of their marriages, were any of these brothers still in Ireland for the 1901 or 1911 census returns  ?

    Most of the Church Catholic and Church of Ireland records for the City area are also on IrishGenealogy website and have been transcribed - so a little easier to search for marriages than the civil records - I checked these and did not see a good match for a marriage of your William.

    The difficulty with tracing forward from a baptism at this time without additional clues is that there are some possible complications that are difficult to follow up on - William could have died before the start of civil registration in 1864, he could have moved outside Dublin city or emigrated...
     

    Shane Wilson, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Friday 13th May 2022, 06:34PM
  • Good morning Shane. Thank-you for your reply.My apologies also for my random request. Based on information undertaken by a Dublin Researcher many years ago Thomas and Sarah O'neill nee Weeks and family emigrated to NZ aboard the Ship Camperdown departing  from London in 1876.The 3 who stayed in Dublin were Joseph who married Ellen Mooney  and died at Sir Dun Hospital Dublin in 1902. Mark married Frances Shannan nee Keogh but to date have not located when he died. According to the 1911 Census Mark was not listed only his Wife Frances (Fanny) and Son Mark.The O'neills lived for the most part in the City Quay area. I have been unable to locate a marriage for Thomas and Sara but according to one of their childrens baptism record entries Sarah was Protestant. However  all children were baptised Catholic and this tradition followed in NZ. I had wondered if William had emigrated but didn't consider that he may have died before 1876.Wishful thinking he hadn't on my part. See what you make of this Shane.

     

    Kind regards

    Genda

    Glenda

    Saturday 14th May 2022, 09:48PM
  • Just a quick note - there's a probable match for a burial of your Joseph O'Neill in Glasnevin Cemetery (Prospect) in 1902, reported age 52 and the address includes the words 'city' and 'quay' so fits with that death registration at Sir Patrick Dunn's Hospital. If it's a family plot there may be details of others in the same grave ... might be worth following up...

    The Glasnevin Cemetery records are pay-per-view at dctrust.ie (Dublin Cemeteries Trust) - there's an extended option to show all those in a grave. Sometimes grave were shared so there could be others .. but if the family owned the plot all the burials in it could be family members

    Based on your information I've seen the death records for Joseph, which includes his home address - they dont always do this ... so lucky break there, also the census for him and his family in 1901 and the couple marriage. Do you have 1901 census details for Mark & Francis  ?

    Death records are the most difficult source to match up, or rule out, the only real clues, besides name and age (which is often inaccurate), can be occupation, address and informant ..

    A quick search of deaths of a William O'Neill (and variants) from the start of civil records in 1864 up to 1905, with a year of birth around 1860 in Dublin city and county shows about 20 matches - register images for those from 1870 are on the IrishGenealogy website.  If  'your' William died before the start of civil records there would be no death record but there could be burial record if his grave was in Glasnevin (which opened in 1832).

    I did a quick search of the burials and found a William O'Neill burial in 1885 with 'city' mentioned in his address, a cross check for deaths located a matching civil death record - William O'Neill died 17th June 1884 at Sir Patrick Dunn's Hospital  (see entry 426 in the register image) noted as from 22 City Quay, reported age 22 occupation a labourer, single - the informant is a W. Hiddle, for the Hospital.. looks like a pretty good match - same street, age is very  close, even the same place of death as Joseph...

    Shane Wilson, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Sunday 15th May 2022, 12:21PM
  • correction - reported age 25 not 22, so estimated year of birth 1859

    The burial record may give details of who paid for William's burial, which could help confirm him as part of your O'Neills - he could even be in the same plot as Joseph...
     

     

    Shane Wilson, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Sunday 15th May 2022, 12:24PM
  • Hi Shane, Thanks very much for the information and your time. I  located  a couple of days ago on  irishgenealogy.ie a death for Mark and Francis based on the informant information and address Peterson Lane which was the address on the 1901 census for Mark and family and the 1911 census for just Frances and her Son.So it appeared that Mark had died between 1901-11.which was correct as he died in 1907.I also located Joseph and Ellen. So all good with them. As for William it does seem a match, thank you but to try and confirm I will undertake a search on the Gasnevin site and let you know what transpires.I did notice on this site that you also had to put in a day and month. I couldn't make out the dates on the death certificates I viewed on irishgenealogy.ie for Mark Frances Joseph and Ellen. Correct me if I am wrong but if this is the correct William his death was within the civil registration time frame and if so I could order a death cert.However would the certificate show both parents names or just the Fathers name. Thanks once again for your help, much appreciated.

     

    Kind regards

    Glenda

     

    Glenda

    Sunday 15th May 2022, 09:41PM
  • As I mentioned above, death records are not very informative - just date and place of death, name age and occupation of deceased, case of death and the informant - the informant can be a useful clue if it's a family member, but in William's case (and Joseph's) it's someone from the Hospital. The only case when a parent might be mentioned is on the death of a child if a parent was the informant - i.e. present at death. The other items that can be clues are the address, as in William's case, and sometimes the occupation if it's something distinctive.

    You can view the full register entry for William's death in my post above...a research or official cert would contain the same details.

    I'll follow up on those details for Mark & Frances..

    Shane Wilson, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Monday 16th May 2022, 10:25AM
  • There is an O’Neill heritage project headed by Sean O'Neill (to whom I am distantly related), who is from the O’Neill branch in County Mayo, and whose email address is sean@oneill.ie.  His family comes from near Swineford in East Mayo (where a number of O’Neill’s relocated during the Plantation of Ulster in the 17th Century), but his research also covers Ulster and other parts of Ireland, so he might be able to help you locate more information about your ancestors.

    kevin45sfl

    Monday 16th May 2022, 08:53PM
  • Hi Shane, That was silly of me. Viewed the certificate on-line so why purchase one. Will try and print them off at our local library.Thanks for the O'neill reference and email and explaining how things work. Now I am not asking you to look into this as you have done enough but where or how could I locate a marriage certificate for Thomas and Sarah O'neill nee weeks. Thomas was born  1827 and Sarah 1833  according to their NZ death notices.However where they were born I don't know. and I realise also dates are not always correct. Thomas was Catholic Sarah Protestant but all their children were baptised Catholic so Sarah obviously changed codes lol.Many many thanks for everything.Have a good day

     

    Kind regards

    Glenda

    Glenda

    Monday 16th May 2022, 09:16PM