Nicholl and Logan Family

Stacy,

Statutory birth registration started in Ireland in 1864. Consequently children born after that date are easier to find than before it, where you have to rely on baptism records. I suspect therefore that the family were living in the area between 1853 and 1864 and had a few more children, but that you will need to trawl the baptism records to find them.

I can?t see John?s birth in the statutory records. Again you might need to check the baptism records for him.

There are 3 Presbyterian churches in Ahoghill, which did your family attend, do you know? (The relevant records are in PRONI but are not on-line, so you?ll either need to go there yourself or get someone else to do it for you).

There?s at least 30 Nicholl graves in the 3 main churchyards in Ahoghill. Have you checked those? Because there were so many Nicholl families in the area, it?s important to know which is the correct one. What townland did the Nicholl family live in (on the 1852 marriage certificate)?  What was Andrew Nicholl?s occupation? Likewise what was the Logan family?s townland and Hugh?s occupation?

Elwyn

Hi Elwyn, Thank you for helping out, and you will have to forget me as I do not know all of the terms and what they mean, such as "townland:".  All it says on the marriage certificate is "Ahoghill, Antrim, Ireland".  As far as which Presbyterian Church, the LDS records state "Ahoghill Presbyterian Church".  I am not sure if this is a generic term or if there is actually a Presbyterian Church named Ahoghill.  I will look it up.  I am starting to learn about all of the different systems such as PRONI, so I will keep trying.  Thank you for any info you can help with.  Stacy Beck

Stacy,

LDS is very helpful but they just have transcripts and you don?t get all the information that is actually on the original certificate. You can view the original 1852 certificate on-line for ?2 from GRONI (the General Register Office) in Belfast. You need to register and buy a few credits. Use the search marriages option.

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

If you view the original certificate, you?ll get to see which church it was, as well as the couples townlands (addresses), their occupations, their fathers occupations and other information that?s often missing from the transcripts. You also get to see their signatures (or crosses, where they were illiterate).

There are 3 Presbyterian churches in Ahoghill. The 1^st, the 2^nd (also known as Trinity) and the 3^rd (also known as Brookside). The 1^st was founded in the 1600s. The 2^nd was a secession church and established around 1806, and the 3^rd was another secession church, established around 1770.  All 3 churches are still in use today. The 1^st has baptisms from 1841, the 2^nd from 1835, and the 3^rd from 1859. (All did have earlier records but these have unfortunately been lost for one reason or another).

So the marriage certificate should tell you which of the 3 churches the marriage took place in. Tradition was to marry in the bride?s church and so that?s where I would expect to find any records relating to the Logan family. Their graves might also be there.  After marriage a bride would attend her husband?s church (assuming he was from a different congregation) and so the children might not necessarily be baptised in the same church that their parents married in.

As I say, Nicholl is a very common surname in the Ahoghill area. So I really need John Nicholl?s townland (address) and his occupation, from the marriage certificate to try and locate where he was living. His father?s occupation would help too, as it tells me which records he may appear in. (For example, if a farmer he might be in the tithe records, but if he was a weaver or labourer, he won?t be). I do know of one gravestone in Ballyscullion churchyard for an Andrew Nicholl 1802 ? 1888. Not sure whether this is your family or not at this stage. Likewise if you can get the same information for Margaret, I?ll see what I can find out about her family.

If the families were Presbyterian that tells you their ancestors came from Scotland, most probably in the 1600s. But you may have known that anyway. (Nearly all of Ahoghill?s original population were Scottish settlers, on the Colville estate. The Colvilles lived at Galgorm Castle:

http://www.galgormcastle.com/the-castle/

A townland is a uniquely Irish way of diving up the land. The whole island was divided up into parcels of land, anything from 1 acre to 5000 acres, though the average is probably about 250 acres, by native Irish tribes (probably around 800 AD, no-one is really clear) and until very recently, that was your address. So no road names or house numbers. Just a townland name eg Craignageeragh or Ballyconnolly. The postman, and anyone else who mattered, knew where within that townland you lived.

Elwyn

Hi Elwyn, Thank you for helping out, and you will have to forgive me as I do not know all of the terms and what they mean, such as "townland:".  All it says on the marriage certificate is "Ahoghill, Antrim, Ireland".  As far as which Presbyterian Church, the LDS records state "Ahoghill Presbyterian Church".  I am not sure if this is a generic term or if there is actually a Presbyterian Church named Ahoghill.  I will look it up.  I am starting to learn about all of the different systems such as PRONI, so I will keep trying.  Thank you for any info you can help with.  Stacy Beck

Hi, GRONI is saying I need £15, but then again, I cannot find that it says I can see it online.  Any suggestions?  Thanks, Stacy

It?s ?15 to get a paper copy of the cert, but only ?2 if you just want to view it on-line. Use the SEARCH REGISTRATIONS (marriages) option, not ORDER A CERTIFICATE.

1. Log in
2. Click on search marriage records
3. Put in one of the names and the year and Ballymena as the registration district. That will bring up just one marriage.
4. Click on ?Full? at the right hand side of the details. That will then bring up a full view of the certificate as it appears in the statutory register.

When a couple marry in Ireland, they sign two copies of the register. One is kept by the church, and the other goes off to GRO in Belfast. So that?s what you can see on-line.

Hi Elwyn, Thank you for being patient wit me!  I followed your instructions and found some information, although it was difficult to read some of it.  The church is the 1st Presbyterian Church.  Both of the fathers Andrew and Hugh were listed as farmers, John Nicholl was listed as a weaver and bachelor.  Margaret was listed as a spinster.  The record states that it was solemnized @ Ahoghill in the Parish of Ahoghill in the County of Antrim.  John's Townland is Prockless and the Parish is Drummaul?  Margaret's townland is Creagh and the Parish is Drummaul.  It was really difficult to read the parish and townland names, but after looking at some websites of townlands and Parishes, this looked the best.  Thanks again for your help!  Stacy

Stacy,

OK. That information is all very helpful. Turning to Griffiths Valuation, I can see Hugh Logan?s farm in Creagh in 1862. He had plot 3 which was a farmhouse, outbuildings and just over 8 acres of landed, which he rented from the O?Neill estate at Shane?s Castle in Randalstown. That?s in a V formed by the modern Whitesides Rd and Glebe Rd, a couple of miles north of Randalstown, between Randalstown and Ahoghill. Looking at the follow on revaluation records, Hugh was replaced by a Thomas Hill in 1880. (There?s a death that might be Hugh regd in Ballymena 2^nd May 1884, aged 71).

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

http://applications.proni.gov.uk/dcal_proni_val12b/ImageResult.aspx

In 1998 a William Logan arrived nearby on plot 10 (a 15 acre farm), but whether he is connected to Hugh is not something I can immediately say. More research would be required to find out. Looking at the 1901 census, here?s that later famr:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clohogue/Creagh/925025/

And in 1911, when Francis has replaced Hugh:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cloghogue/Creagh/116138/

Likewise, in Griffiths I can see Andrew Nicholl listed in Procklis. He had plot 8 which was a farmhouse, outbuildings and 16 acres. Procklis and Creagh share a common boundary and so it?s easy to see how John & Margaret met. They obviously lived within a few hundred yards of each other. Procklis is situated around Whitesides Corner, where the Glebe and Whitesides Rd intersects.  The exact location of both the Logan and Nicholl farms is not shown on-line. However it is possible to find them using other copies of the townland maps held in the local studies section at Ballymena Library, should you ever wish to do so.

The revaluation records show that Andrew Nicholl left in 1867 when he was replaced by John Small. I can see tow Andrew Nicholl deaths regd in Ballymena, which might refer to your Andrew. 1796 to 1873 and 1798 to 1877. (I?d try the earlier one first).

John Nicholl?s house isn?t listed in Griffiths but that is probably because as a weaver, he?d be staying in a property too small to be listed. I would expect him to have been somewhere on his father?s farm.

In 1901 there were these two Nicholl households in the townland:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clohogue/Prockles/925104/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clohogue/Prockles/925109/

There?s also this gravestone in Ahoghill 1^st Presbyterian church graveyard, which looks to relate to your family, and which gives you John & Margaret?s dates of death, as well as the fact that two of their sons died young.:

?Erected by Margaret Jane Nicholl, Prockless, in memory of her father John Nicholl died 20th July 1910 aged 85 years Also her mother Margaret died 10th March 1910 aged 82 years Also her brothers William died 23rd Feb 1870 aged 9 years Alexander died 24th April 1873 aged 9 years?.

Although the address given for John and Margaret is Procklis, the 1901 census makes it clear they weren?t actually living there. In fact, this seems to be them in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clohogue/Ballymacilroy/924957/

This is Margaret Jane, living alone in 1911. She?s in Creagh:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cloghogue/Creagh/116140/

 John Nicholl didn?t leave a will (or again not one that was probated anyway). I have no idea what happened to Margaret Jane. There was a Mgt Jane who died on 12.8.1962 aged 80 who might be her. (The age is out but the age on a death certificate was often incorrect, being just the informant?s best guess). She died intestate, in Craignageeragh. Probate abstract:

Nicholl, Margaret of Craignageeragh Ahoghill county Antrim spinster died 12 August 1962 Administration Belfast 7 May to Isabella Nicholl spinster. Effects ?59.

I noted this family in Craignageeragh in 1901, whom I suspect may be linked to yours in some way. It?s a John & Margaret Ann with a son named David Logan Nicholl. 

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ahoghill/Craignageeragh/923939/

I know from your initial post that you are hopeful of finding living descendants. There may be some in the area. Your problem is really that most people here aren?t that interested in their ancestry and if you ask them about it, they can only go back 3 generations and that?s about it. So they get back to their grandparents c 1910 and then they are stuck. They might be related to John Nicholl or Mgt Logan but they won?t know.  Bridging the gap between your ancestors departure and more modern relations can be difficult.

Andrew Nicholl seems to have died in the 1870s, or thereabouts. He doesn?t appear to have left a will 9 or at least not one that was probated). I can?t find a gravestone for him. So apart from your John, I don?t know of any of his family. John?s surviving children in Ireland seem to have consisted of John b c 1873 and Mgt Jane who was evidently still alive and unmarried in 1911.

Elwyn

Hi Elwyn, thank you for all of your help. I will have to digest all of what you said- it is a lot. If I have any further questions, I will definitely get back to you. It makes me want to visit Ireland tomorrow though to see all of the places you are talking about! Thanks again, Stacy