Fleming

You have posted this enquiry under Larne, though I note that Andrew Fleming & Eliza Ann Kerr were married in Belfast. Presumably you have information connecting the Fleming family to Larne.

Malcolm Fleming?s marriage to Ann Jean Loughlin is prior to the start of statutory registration of marriages (April 1845 for non RC). So you will need to rely on church records to find it. (Tradition was to marry in the bride?s church).

Likewise, Andrew?s birth in 1834 is before the start of statutory birth registration (1864) and so to trace it you will also need church records. To do that you?ll need to know Andrew?s exact denomination. I had a look at the 1901 census for Larne and all but two of the Flemings listed there were Non Subscribing Presbyterian, including two Malcolm Flemings (too young to be Andrew?s father). There were also two Church of Ireland Flemings so that?d be the next set of records to look at.

No Flem(m)ings listed in Larne in the 1851 census (part of which exists for Larne).

Neither Larne NSP nor the Church of Ireland baptism records are on-line anywhere, so far as I am aware. However there are copies of both on microfilm in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. A personal visit is required to view them.

Griffiths Valuation (1861) does have a Malcolm Fleming listed for Townparks, Larne. Interestingly it was plot 39 (a house outbuildings and 4 acres) immediately beside the workhouse. The Malcolm Fleming in the 1901 was the workhouse master, so I wonder if there?s some connection? (From his 1904 marriage, it appears his father was named Thomas Fleming).

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Larne/Old_Glenarm_Road/996339/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Larne/Oldglenar…

Here?s the other Malcolm Fleming in Larne in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Larne/Point_Street/9957

Do you know what Malcolm Fleming?s occupation was given as, in the 1863 marriage certificate?

I noticed a second Malcolm Fleming in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Larne/Point_Street/995779/

This Malcolm Fleming was married in 1874 and had a father named Malcolm, so I wonder if this family is connected to the one you are interested in (is he Andrew?s brother?):

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Shankill/Ligoniel_Road__part_of_/171654/

Probate of the Will of Malcolm Fleming, Ligoniel Belfast Flesher who died 10 December 1920 granted at Belfast 8 April 1921 to Mary Taggert Fleming, the widow & George Mearns, Butcher. Effects ?522 0s 1d.

There?s a death registered in Larne for Malcolm Fleming on 13.2.1869, aged 80. Might be Andrew?s father?

I, too, am seeking information on both Malcolm Fleming and Ann Jane (Jean?) Fleming. They were my 3rd great grandparents. Seeking info on where they may havee been born. Some research leads me to believe they may have been born in Scotland. I have yet to verify that. Any information would be greatly appreciated!

It might be helpful if you can tell us more about what you know about Malcolm and Ann Jane. Where do you understand they were born, married and died?  Have you found any certificates or church records to confirm that? What children did they have and where were they born?

The couple may have been born in Scotland - it’s only 20 miles from Larne and literally half the population of Co Antrim have Scottish roots. Folk have been going back and forth for thousands of years - so no surprises there, but to trace a particular family we need more detail.

I don't have much information on either of them. I think they may have both been born in Scotland, but my research shows they lived in Larne most of their lives. No idea when they married. I have dates of birth and death, but that is about it. Their daughter, Mary Ann Fleming, came to the US and settled in NY. She was my 2nd gr-grandmother. She married James Wilson, who also came from Larne. Such common names makes it difficult to research!

You say you have dates of birth and death. Would you like to share them with us? You know they have a daughter Mary Ann born in Ireland. When was she born (approximately)? What denomination where they?

Without a bit more detail it's unlikely anyone will really be able to help you very much.

Malcolm Fleming born 1789, died in Larne 2/14/1869. Ann Loughlin also born 1789, died in Larne 11/22/1968. No idea what their religious denomination was. Mary Ann Fleming born in Ireland (not sure where, assume Larne) March 1820, arrived in the US, New York, in 1848 and died in Elmira NY 10/19/1909. ames Wilson born in  Larne in 1815, arrived in New York in 1843, and died in Elmira, NY 1/24/1890. Some of my research shows that Malcolm and Ann may have been non-conforming Protestants, but I haven't verified that. Nothing on the Wilson side.  Thanks so much for your assistance!

I can confirm that there is a death recorded for Malcolm Fleming in Larne on 13th Feb 1868, and also one for Anne Fleming on 22.11.1869 (a year later than your information). You can view the original death certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

I looked for the family in Griffiths Valuation (1861). There is just one Malcolm Fleming in the parish of Larne. He was in Townparks where he had plot 39, a house and 5 acres of land. I searched the 1851 census of Larne but there was no sign of him in Town Parks or anywhere else in Larne, so possibly he was working elsewhere then. (Only a small part of the 1851 census of Ireland has survived. So I can’t search the rest of the country to see where he might have been). His occupation according to Andrew’s marriage certificate in 1863 was “nurseryman.”  They did sometimes move about according to what work was available.

Your best bet for tracing the family is to get someone to go through the baptism & marriage records for churches in Larne to see if you can find his baptism, his marriage and the children’s baptisms. Those records are held in PRONI in Belfast. They are not on-line so you need to go there yourself or get a researcher to do it for you. Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net

You mention that he might have been a non-conforming protestant.  Here in Ireland that suggests he was Presbyterian, and so I would start with those records. The Non Subscribing Presbyterian church in Larne has records as follows:

Baptisms, 1720-69, 1796, 1801-03 and 1826-1929; marriages, 1721-69 and 1826-1908; session minutes, 1720-48, 1800-01 and 1828-30; session and committee minutes, 1864-1929; discipline cases, 1721-49; poor accounts, 1720-57.

Larne 1st Presbyterian has records as follows: Baptisms, 1813 and 1824-1902; marriages, 1846-1902;

In case you are wondering what a Non Subscribing Presbyterian is, they are Presbyterians who don’t subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith (the main doctrinal tenets of the broadstream Presbyterian church). They don’t proselytize and they don’t believe in the Trinity. They believe there is a single spiritual entity (ie God) and so are often known as Unitarians.  Otherwise their beliefs are Presbyterian and most in Ireland have Scottish ancestry.

Elwyn, thank you so much for the information. I will look into their death certificates in hopes they will tell me where they were born, and possibly who their parents were. Have a great week!