Joyce Family in Ulster Inquiry

David,

Joyce is not particularly common in Ulster. Looking at the 1901 census, there were 6097 people of that name in Ireland. Only 209 of them live din Ulster. The breakdown is Armagh 78, Down 56, Antrim 31, Tyrone 26, Derry 9, Donegal 7, Fermanagh 1, Monaghan 1 & nil in Cavan. So there are more in Armagh than any other county in Ulster but still not very many in comparison to the rest of Ireland.

Incidentally 5801 of the 6097 are RC which tends to indicate that it?s a native Irish name.

I looked at the 1901 Scottish census and there are only 557 people named Joyce in it. You would need to pay to look at the records to investigate further but I?d be pretty sure that a high percentage of those were either born in Ireland or born to parents who were born there.  (There was massive migration from Ireland to Scotland in the 1800s). In 1841 there were just 22 people named Joyce in Scotland. So a very rare name indeed.

Joss isn?t very common in Scotland either. 496 in 1841 and 557 in 1901.

Statistically, your family seem unlikely to have originated in Scotland, and more likely to have come from Ireland, but not Ulster.

Elwyn

Hello Elywn,

Thank you for help. That is interesting :} I heard that there are no records that date back to the 1700's. Is it possible for me to search for my family through a paper trail? Or is DNA my best chance?

Sincerely,

David

David,

There are not many records in Ireland for the 1700s and if you don't know exactly where in the country they originated it's a needle in a haystack. I would say DNA is probably your best bet.

Elwyn

No worries :} Thanks for your time. Hopefully one day I will find some "hidden" knowledge which might lead somewehre.

I have an update which may help. I believe I may now have that "hidden" knowledge now. I am researching two different early Joyce lines in the American colonies and in both, they seem to be Presbyterians. However, I'm confused. If Joyce isn't a Northern surname then why would they be Presbyterian?

They also came in the mid 1600's which I know puts me in a tight spot. What records if any are left for my purposes?

thanks much,

David

David,

The majority of emigrants who left Ireland in the 1600s & 1700s were Presbyterian or Church of Ireland and so if your family were Presbyterian then that fits the general scenario more easily than if they were RC. But it doesn?t alter the fact that there were not many people named Joyce who were Presbyterian. Looking at the 1901 Irish census again, there are 6097 of whom just 33 were Presbyterian. Just 9 or 10 households in the whole country. All lived in either Down, Armagh or Londonderry. They could be descendants of Scots settlers or from families where there was intermarriage. No real way of knowing.

Another possibility is that your Joyce is a corruption of another name. I looked at the Muster Rolls for Ulster c 1630 (Men & Arms, the Ulster Settlers c 1630? by RJ Hunter), and I see one Isack Joyes who lived on the Drapers Estate in Co. Londonderry, who would have been Protestant, and of settler origins. The surname could therefore have originally been something like that, and so unconnected with the Irish Joyce name. Joy/Joys isn?t common in Scotland though, so it doesn?t get much easier. Only 9 in the 1841 Scottish census.

There are very few records for the 1600s, and of what there is, hardly any are on-line. The usual recommended reading is ?Researching Scots-Irish Ancestors, The essential genealogical guide to early modern Ulster 1600-1800? by William Roulston. It lists the various records that do exist. Muster Rolls, Penders census 1659, Hearth money rolls, petition lists, plantation records, denization and naturalization records etc. Many of these are in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast or the National Library in Dublin. But if you don?t know where in Ulster your family lived, it can be a bit of a needle in a haystack.

Elwyn

Hello Elwyn,

Interesting! According to the Joyce (Joss, Joye, etc) surname history they were of Norman Origin and my Y-DNA results are learning that way as time goes on. Thanks for your help again :}

Just as a fun search, does Men & Arms, the Ulster Settlers c 1630 list the members of that Joye family that came over by chance? If so, do the names Alexander, John, Arabham, or Thomas show up?

Thanks again :}

The Muster Rolls were a list of adult men available to fight in the event of a civil emergency. There is only the one Joys named. That suggests that there were no adult children in his family. So, to be neither too old nor too young to fight and have no adult children, could mean that Isack was probably in his 30s. Probably he  had not been living in Ireland for more than 10 years, if that.

Cool, thanks again :}

Hi David - please excuse my reply, which is not specific to your inquiry regarding the American or Australian colonies in the 1700's. However I could not resist asking you if you know where in Armagh your Joyce family comes from. I have a great grandfather, Thomas Joyce born 1853 who immigrated to new zealand in 1874. He came from Mullahead/Brackagh area and he and his family were Church of Ireland, and fiercely 'Orange'. His father was Andrew Joyce, born about 1815, and there is a possibility that his father was another Thomas, paying land tax in 1833 in Kilmore, Mullahead. There are 'Joices' in the area in the late 1700's. None of Thomas's other siblings immigrated - he appears to have come to New Zealand accompanied by another young man from his area called Thompson. Thomas married and had 4 children, 2 boys called Thomas and Arthur, and 2 girls called Mabel and Emma. Of his line, there are 2 males living, the children of Arthur. Thomas Joyce jnr disappeared.... we have no idea where he went. Best Wishes, FS in Australia

Hello Familysleuth,

Thanks for your inquiry! I have no clue where in Ulster they came from, or even if they came from Ulster. They appeared so early in the American colonies that I'm seeking answers through several means. However, I did find some new information in my quest with a Thomas and Alexander that came to VA in 1664. Maybe one of these is the father of Thomas and Alexander the brothers? This is my best clue yet.

My best guess is that they were Presbyterians as Alexander was an Elder in a Presbyerian Community. If Thomas and Alex did indeed come from Ulster what event could have forced them to leave? Especiallly if they were Presbyterians? 

I find it interesting that the name Thomas is part of your family line. I know that the name Thomas has been in my family since the 1700's. 

I wish I could be of more help :{.

David

David,

You ask what event forced your ancestors to leave Ireland. In general terms the answer will be economic betterment. Exactly the same drivers as motivate todays new immigrants to America or Australia or New Zealand.

The position in Ireland in the 1700s was that the population was growing significantly. The population rose from 3 million in 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It?s only 6 million today). Rents were rising (for land they knew they would never own), there were some poor harvests, a decline in the linen industry, and for Presbyterians (and Catholics), there was some religious discrimination. People who were not Church of Ireland were prevented from holding public office or important posts in society. There were some restrictions on how they practiced their religion. Positive accounts from those who had already emigrated also influenced those remaining in Ireland. So all of these factors, plus news from north America that cheap/free land which could be owned outright could be had there, encouraged people to go. Some 200,000 people emigrated from Ulster to North America in the 1700s.

If you want to read the background in more detail, a good book is ?Eagles Wings ? The journey of the Ulster Scots and Scotch-Irish? by Dr David Hume.

According to that book (page 186), ?in 1774, 298 of 518 passengers from Belfast to Nova Scotia in Canada, interviewed on reasons for emigration, outlined that they had done so because of the desire to seek a ?better livelihood and employment.?

Also, the Presbyterian communal bloc was a factor:

?The strength and compactness of the Presbyterian bloc and the reality of the hold of the Presbyterian church over the daily lives of its members had an important effect?just as coals burn more brightly when in contact with one another, so did resentment rise among the closely knit and numerically dominant Presbyterian congregations in north east Ireland. If that resentment did not of itself produce emigration, it helped the waverers to make their decision and lived in many minds long after temporal hardships were forgotten. Emigration in such a community was likely to be as contagious as a fever in an insanitary town: it was liable to become a local epidemic if the minister sponsored it.?

Also on p 186, Rev James McGregor, a Presbyterian Minister in Coleraine in 1718 said in a sermon that ?his group was leaving for a number of reasons, these being to avoid oppression, to shun persecution, and to be enabled to worship God according to their consciences. Although his reasons were religious, others undoubtedly had material or commercial reasons for going.?

The reason that the British Government had imposed restrictions on Presbyterians and Roman Catholics was largely because they were seen as troublemakers who were likely to undermine a stable society. They had threatened rebellion and revolution, they might support a foreign invasion (by the Spanish or French) and so on. They were seen a little like Islam is seen in many western countries today. A serious threat to a safe society. There are parallels to be drawn between today?s extreme Islamic preachers who encourage jihad, and similar sounding Presbyterian Ministers who encouraged dissent and revolution from their pulpits. (In the United Irish rebellion of 1798, several of the leaders were Presbyterian Ministers who were subsequently executed for their treasonous behaviour).

As everyone knows, amongst other things, the 1^st amendment to the US Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion or impeding the free exercise of religion. One of the drivers behind that amendment was the knowledge by US politicians (many of whose families were recent Presbyterian immigrants) of the difficulties their ancestors had faced in Ireland and the rest the British Isles, because of their religious beliefs.

Elwyn

Interesting! Thanks for the story. I think I'm going to study the early Presbterian Communities in VA as a clue. Are there any records in Northern Ireland of Prebyterian movements to the colonies?

thanks again,

David

David,

If you are looking for comprehensive records of who left Ireland in the 1700s, the answer is that no such records exist. Neither the state nor any other body required such information, and so all you get are piecemeal records from personal accounts, newspaper reports, adverts for missing relatives believed to be in America to get in touch. That sort of thing. The Rev Wm Martin took a group of Covenanters (Reformed Presbyterians) from Ulster to the Carolinas in the 1700s. Records exist of all his passengers (though not of where they originated in Ireland). There?s a book entitled Ulster Emigration to Colonial America 1718 ? 1775 by RJ Dickson, published in Belfast in 1988 which you might find interesting, as well as Eagles Wings which I mentioned previously, which covers the migration too.

PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast and the Linenhall Library in Belfast both have various publications on their shelves which cover migration to the USA and Canada in this period. Obviously many names are mentioned but, as I say, it?s not a comprehensive list of all 200,000 emigrants.

Elwyn

Thank you very much Elywn. I appreicate your help as always :}.

Hi there! Just recently had a family member do ancestry and after very short moments of research I seem to have stumbled into the right thread (hoping this thread is still open) I will copy and paste in the information I have which seems to line up with yours David! Please write back soon! Thank you. 

Thomas Joyce, 1775, County Armagh, Northern Ireland 
David Hartley, 1786, County Cavan, Ireland 
George Wooding, 1809, Scotland, Uk
William Nurse, 1810, Eastrington, Yorkshire, England 

As an added note, my Joyce side is in Canada!