Marriage Hugh Beatty/Beattie

Methodism took a long time to get established in Ireland as a separate denomination. Many members wished to retain the links with the Church of Ireland. For that reason, plus the fact that Methodist Ministers were not licensed to conduct marriages in Ireland before 1845, you are likely to find that the 1840 marriage was in the Church of Ireland. I would check Clonfeacle Church of Ireland records for it. Assuming they still exist, there should be a copy in PRONI, Belfast. Or you can contact the parish direct (but expect to pay a search fee if you do).

Elwyn

Duplicate.

Many thanks Elwyn, this may help in my quest. I hadn't realised that the Wesleyan church was not in full operation. Someone I know here in Australia suggested the Benburb church; would this be the same church? I will have a look at Proni for Church of Ireland records.

Thankyou for the tip.

Cheers, John Beattie

I can't help you with the marriage record but I might be able to help with other relatives. Beattie, Rolston, and Holmes are all names that married into my Clonfeacle family so I've worked on them and I have a special interest in early Methodists.

It sounds like you've already done a lot of research so I won't write up a bunch of stuff you likely already know. You may be interested in this little blurb about James Beattie and the Blackwatertown Methodist Church:

http://methodisthistoryireland.org/churches/Blackwatertown%20Methodist%…

That gentleman was James Marshall Beattie of Blackwatertown but originally from Tyragerty. I think he was a first cousin of your Hugh.

You mention siblings Isabel, James, and Alexander. Do you have dates, spouses, or locations for them? I'm always interested in Methodists from Clonfeacle.

Thank you for the most interesting article you sent. I would love to know whether James Marshall Beattie is Hugh’s cousin. Hugh was a devout Wesleyan and when he settled in Wagga Wagga, NSW he was heavily involved in the Wesleyan congregation at Brucedale near Wagga and the subsequent building of the church building in the late 1800’s. (Renovated about 10 years ago and used for private services).

Unfortunately I don’t have the birthdates of Hugh’s siblings but I can provide the following;

Isabel Beattie married Matthew Devlin, migrated to Australia, and they had 5 children, Maybel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. (name previously D-Evelyn)

Alexander Beattie married Eliza (?). According to the writings of Dame Mary Gilmore (Granddaughter of Hugh Beattie), Alexander was appointed by Sir Robert Peel to help set up the police in Wales (I have not been able to confirm this).

James Beattie married Mary Marshall and they had 5 children, John, ?female, ?female, Margaret and Mary (Mary Beattie married John Trotter and I have their descendants).

Hugh Beattie(b.approx 1817 - d.1890) married Mary Ro(u)lston (b. 1820 - d. 1906) they migrated to Australia in 1842  and they had 13 Children, Joshua, Eliza, Sarah, Mary Ann, Jane,  James, Martha Lydia, William Hugh, Caroline, Thomas Henry, John, Emily Isabel and Alfred.

I have a fairly comprehensive tree following Hugh and James’ line, very little on Isabel and nothing regarding Alexander.

Hugh’s father John married Elizabeth Holmes and other than a rough idea where they lived I know very little. I would love to know more about this couple and their siblings and parents but to date I have not been able to get very far.

Another family that features in my research is the Trotter family from Mullyleggin, James’ daughter Mary (b.1839) married John Trotter (b.1840) and their daughter Sarah Trotter (b.1864 – d.1955) married Alfred son of Hugh, bringing two lines together.

Information we have states that John Wesley used to stay at the family home of John and Mary Trotter in Ireland.  At the home of Sarah in Sydney she had a 300 year old oak chair used by John Wesley during his visits to her family in Ireland. (According to Dame Mary Gilmore)

The Beattie’s that migrated to Australia produced some notable, and some very successful, individuals.

I would be very grateful for any information you can provide and I am more than happy to share any information I have with you.

Cheers

John Beattie

John Beaty of Terregarty, Armagh 5 Feb 1785 (Armagh Diocesan administration bond)

c. 1833 Tithe Applotments

Hugh Beatty in Tyragherty

There were other Beatties around but not in the townlands immediately surrounding Tyragherty.

1845 – Armagh Guardian reports Hugh Beattie, eldest son of James Beattie of Tyregarty, died Aug 15 in his 22nd year.

James Beattie, farmer, of Tyregarty 1849 (Armagh Diocesan administration bond)

So I would make James Beattie who died about 1849 as the son of Hugh Beattie from Tithe Applotments having named his eldest son after his father.

Griffiths Primary Valuation shows two Beatties in Tireagerty. Looking at the maps, John Beatty had quite a bit of land making up a substantial portion of the townland. A Mary Beatty was leasing a house and garden from John Beatty.

There was also a Joseph Beatty in the adjoining townland of Drumcullen. I don`t know anything about him yet.

Mary Beatty is crossed out in the first revision. I don`t see a death record that would match but she may have died before civil registration in 1864 or she may have moved away. Mary Beattie married John Trotter in 1863 so that`s one possibility.

John Beattie of Tireagarty isn`t revised until 1921 when the name is changed to Marshall Trotter.

The lack of revisions gives me confidence that the John Beattie on the Primary Valuation is this one:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Charlemont/Tireagerty/1011995/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Charlemont/Tireagerty/325837/

There is a matching death record for 1920.

I would infer that Hugh Marshall Trotter, son of John Trotter and Mary Beattie was John Beattie`s nephew. Marshall Trotter went to the US in 1905 and ended up in New South Wales but he was back in Armagh between times.

From PRONI will calendars:

Letters of Administration of the personal estate of Sarah Beatty late of Tyregarty County Armagh Widow deceased who died 14 July 1865 at same place were granted at Armagh to James Beatty of Blackwatertown in said County the Son and a Next of Kin of said deceased.

The civil registration index has a matching death record making Sarah Beattie`s birth around 1804.

The grant wasn`t until 1877 which is a lengthy delay so the reference to James Marshall being of Blackwatertown is from 1877 not 1865.

The PRONI eCatalogue turned up this 1877 record :

Affidavit for Administrators Sarah Beatty, Tyregarty, Co, Armagh

It looks like that Affidavit survives so it could be a good record to get.

Also from PRONI will calendars:

Probate of the Will of Isabella Beattie late of Tyregarty County Armagh Spinster who died 13 January 1892 granted at Armagh to James M. Beattie of Blackwatertown said County Merchant.

You can read a copy of the will on the PRONI site. It specifies Margaret Beattie as a sister (see census record already linked) and James M Beattie as a brother. The witnesses were John Beattie of Tyregarty and Harry H Beattie of Blackwatertown. Harry Harpur Beattie was a son of James Marshall Beattie.

From all these records, I would make James Beattie and Sarah of Tyregarty as parents of Hugh, John, Margaret, Isabella, Mary, and James Marshall Beattie.

I would add Sarah Beattie (c. 1834-1894) as another daughter of James and Sarah. She married William Thompson in 1860. Their children included names Marshall and Hugh and the family was Methodist:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Charlemont/Ball…

James Marshall Beattie married Lucy Ann Trotter. Lucy Ann was born in Belfast and they were married in Dublin but I`m confident that her Trotter roots were in Clonfeacle. Her father was John Crawford Trotter and two of her brothers (John Crawford Trotter and Frederick Albert Trotter) were Methodist ministers.

Lucy Ann Trotter also had an aunt named Mary Ann Trotter who was married to a William Beattie and lived in Belfast. They had a daughter who married into my family and lived in Benburb. I`ve always believed that both her parents had Clonfeacle roots that led to her marriage into my family.

Would the John Beaty of 1785 be the brother of Hugh( father of James Marshall Beattie) ?

The Tithe Applotments show multiple Trotters in Clonfeacle. By the time of Griffiths Primary the only Trotter listed is Anne who lived in Mullyleggan and also held land in Tyregagerty. Anne was the widow of John Trotter and the mother of John Trotter who married Mary Beattie.

My theory is that either the James Trotter or the William Trotter on the Tithe Applotments was the father of Mary Ann Trotter who married William Beattie and the grandfather of Lucy Ann Trotter who married James Marshall Beattie.

Anne Trotter died in 1866 and left a will. The will names a son David (I don`t know anything about him) and a son-in-law Robert McMullan who was married to Jane Trotter. An executor of the will was David Rolston of Killymaddy. I have a strong hunch that David Rolston was Anne Trotter`s brother. They were close in age and she had a son named David. Also, the Australian death index for her grandson Hugh Marshall Trotter lists his father as John Rolston. I haven`t seen a middle name or initial on any of John Trotter`s Irish records though. David Rolston of Killymaddy had a daughter who married into my family.

James Marshall Beattie and Lucy Ann Trotter had a son whose birth registration names as Henry Herbert Beattie but who appears everywhere else as Harry Harpur Beattie. John Trotter and Mary Beattie had a son named Herbert Harpur Trotter. I don't know the significance but I'm sure there is some.

My analysis of the records I’ve found would be that Hugh Beattie of Tyregarty had 2 sons: John married Elizabeth Holmes and James married Sarah. I would guess Sarah’s maiden name to be Marshall based on that name recurring for 3 of her children. Sarah certainly looks to have been the mother of the younger children including Mary who married John Trotter whose mother you have as Mary Marshall.

My model would make Sarah Elizabeth Trotter who married Alfred Beattie as second cousins which isn’t quite what you have but it’s pretty close. It sounds like you’re using somebody else’s old research which can be very useful but you can’t depend on it being entirely accurate. It’s only as good as the original researcher and the information they had access to at the time. The more things you can verify, the more likely it is that the things you can’t verify are correct.

The most useful records to get would be the marriages of Sarah Beattie and William Thompson, Mary Beattie and John Trotter, James Marshall Beattie and Lucy Ann Trotter, and of Alfred Beattie and Sarah Elizabeth Trotter. Also the death record for Sarah Beattie and that affidavit regarding her estate.

I’d concentrate on the believed siblings of Hugh - Alexander and Isabel.  I couldn’t pick up their trail. Have you found any records for Isabel’s family in Australia? That should be verifiable.

http://ied.dippam.ac.uk/records/27166

William Beattie formerly of Blackwatertown died in Trafalgar in 1842 age 95. It says Western Canada but that's the western part of what was then Upper Canada. Trafalgar is in Halton, Ontario.

It says he'd been a Wesleyan Methodist for over half a century so that's good support to your Beattie family having deep Wesleyan roots.

It also says he'd only emigrated 18 years prior when he was in his 70s so I'm sure he went with family. I'm looking into them.

In this context, I think Blackwatertown could mean the general area rather than the actual town. The same site also has a couple of reports of Trotters from Blackwatertown who died in Toronto.

Thank you Elzabel, I am really pleased at the amount of information you are able to give me. I have collated the information you have given me and set up a temporary family tree to fit your analysis. Could you please look at the attachments and confirm the placements of the individuals. For the most part everything I already had is the same on the line of James except that he is Brother to John and not his son. The information I have suggests that John did have a son called James and this could be where the confusion came in with linking the tree (wrong generation). The other error was, as you pointed out, I had Sarah Marshall as Mary.

You are correct in that the particular part of the tree pertaining to James was given to me by another researcher and I have been relying on it's accuracy.

Also you will note that I have Hamilton John Trotter as father to John Trotter, I believe this to be correct but have not confirmed it.

Cheers

John

John Trotter and Anne (Rolston??) of Mullyleggan had a son named Hamilton so maybe that's where the confusion comes from?

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Charlemont/Mull…

The marriage records for Jane, John, and Hamilton Trotter all list their father as John and there's a John Trotter on Tithe Applotments which lines up to the Mullyleggan and Tyreagary holdings of his widow later.

Are you descended from the Trotter line yourself? I'm not sure how much detail you want.

I made a great discovery following up on that William Beattie from Blackwatertown to Trafalgar. He was definitely the father of William Beattie who married Mary Ann Trotter whose daughter married into my family. Proof that Beattie line comes from Clonfeacle adds more support to my theory that Trotter line also comes from Clonfeacle. Mary Ann Trotter's brother John Crawford Trotter was the father of Lucy Ann Trotter who married James Marshall Beattie of Blackwatertown. It seems that the Beattie and Trotter families of that area have a lot of connections.

I am not a direct descendant of the Trotters but I am in contact with some people ( the Hollands) in my town that are directly descended from  Hugh Marshall Trotter and have just held a Trotter reunion last weekend. I have been assisting them where I can with the Beattie/Trotter lines. I am happy to receive more about the Trotters. The Hollands have visited Tireagerty and Clonfeacle and the Church at Blackwatertown and at Benburb.

Thanks for the information on John Trotter, seems I have some changes to make and documents to purchase.

I thought this article from the Sydney Morning Herald 3 September 1932 might be of interest to you.

It was written by a Methodist Reverend B. Deane about 'Wesley's Chair'. I have attached a copy of the original article and a transcript for easier reading.

Cheers

I found something for you while looking for something on a different family.

In 1852 a William Rolston immigrated to New South Wales. His native place is listed as Clonfeacle, Tyrone and his parents John and Margaret were living in Drumdarick which would be a variant of Drumderg. Under relatives in the Colony, it says "1st cousin Mary Beattie being in Bathurst".

This William Rolston went on to bring his parents and some siblings over as well. His father John died in 1868 and his death record is indexed as parents James and Susan. If William and Mary were indeed 1st cousins on the Rolston side then this James and Susan would be your direct ancestors!

I noticed that Mary Rolston Beattie's death registration is indexed with parents John and Ann but her immigration record has David and Sarah and that seems far more likely to be correct since she provided the information herself and because she appears to have had an uncle John Rolston. The informant probably got mixed up.

I've also been meaning to mention that findmypast seems to have some promising military records for Clonfeacle, Armagh Beatties. I think it's a collection you can access for free on familysearch if you log in at an LDS family history centre. Those service records sometimes have a lot of detail.

Thanks Elzabel, I came to the same conclusion with the ships log and the death certificate missmatch.

This information regarding William Rolston etc. will be helpful and very much appreciated. I will try and access the 'find my past' military records,, thank you for the tip.

Hi Elzabel, I hope you are still invloved with this group. I am planning to make the trip from Australia to Ireland around September 2016. I appreciate all the assistance you have afforded me in the past and would like to know if you could suggest someone to contact, prior to my trip, in the Clonfeacle/ Blackwatertown area who may have knowledge of the history of the Beatty/Beattie family.

John

I found this searching the fantastic Irish Newspapers collection on findmypast. It's from the Belfast Commercial Chronicle on 1 Jun 1839:

"On the 23d ult, at Tyregarty, near Blackwatertown, Mr Hugh Beattie, in the 93d year of his age. He had been a member of the Wesleyan Methodist Society for upwards of sixty years, and was ardently and cordially attached to their doctrine and discipline; he highly esteemed their Ministers, and hospitably entertained them for more than half a century. During his last illness, when his mental powers were not affected, he expressed his confidence in his god - his end was peace."

It's always nice to have documentary evidence to go along with your family legends!

Hello

I have just signed up to this site and have followed this trail with interest. James Marshall Beattie was my great grandfather. HIs son John Crawford Beattie (known as Jack) was my grandfather. He died in 1916 in what was known as the Carlingford Lough Disaster. My mother, Dorothy, was 5 months old and her brother, also John, was just a year older. They grew up near Avoca, Co Wicklow and Dublin. The oldest son of James Marshall was Harry W, born 1880. He emigrated on the Lusitania to America in 2012 and lived in California. Daisy was born in 1884 and emigrated to California probably around 1920. John Crawford Beattie was born in 1886. James Sydney, born 1992, also emigrated to America before WW1 and later went to New Zealand. Their mother, James Marshall Beattie's wife, emigrated to America after James died, probably at the same time as Daisy. This is based on information put together by my brother-in-law. We know that James Marshall Beattie owned a shop in Blackwatertown. We'd be interested to know exactly where it was. It's likely to have been close to the Methodist church as I understand he donated the land for it to be built. I don't know very much about the Trotter side of the family and would be interested to know more.

James Marshall Beattie in 1901 & 1911. They had 8 children 4 of whom had died by 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Charlemont/Blackwatertown/1012001/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Charlemont/Blackwatertown/325854/

The 1911 census tells us that the property was a shop and private dwelling with 5 rooms and 11 windows at the front.

The revaluation records show the Primitive Methodist Meeting House on plot 32. It appears to have been redesignated as a National School in the early 1900s. Plots 33 & 34 were gardens belonging to James Beattie. He also had properties 72 & 73 further along the street which were houses, outbuildings and yards.

http://apps.proni.gov.uk/Val12B/ImageResult.aspx

I think James Beattie had married Lucy Ann Trotter in Dublin North 1874 Vol 17, page 487.

Children born Armagh:

Mary 25.6.1875; Hugh 6.6.1877; Henry (ie Harry) 18.10.1879; Hugh 3.2.1882; Bertha 4.2.1884; John 9.2.1886; Charles 24.11.1888 & James 9.1.1892.

Thank you very much for this Elwyn. I am wondering why they would have gone to Dublin to marry. Was it usual for Methodists to do this at that time if they wanted to marry in a Methodist church?

It wouldn’t have been necessary to go to Dublin to marry in the Methodist faith in the 1870s. There’s probably some other reason. If you get a copy of the certificate, the addresses and occupations may give a clue. Perhaps Lucy was living in Dublin at the time?

And they may not necessarily have married in a Methodist ceremony. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, and if she was of another denomination eg Church of Ireland, then that’s the denomination they’d likely have used. The marriage certificate will show which denomination the church was.

Hi Leslie,

I do have a lot of information about Lucy Anna Trotter and her family. She did go to the US after her husband died but later went on to New Zealand, probably with her son James Sidney Beattie but I don't know the exact timing. Her sister Frances Selina had been in New Zealand since the 1860s.

Lucy Anna's parents were John Crawford Trotter and Anna Tucker.

I don't know who John Crawford Trotter's parents were but I'm very confident the Trotter part traces back to the Blackwatertown area and earlier connections to the Beattie family there.

Anna Tucker's parents were Samuel Tucker and Martha Lutton. There's a book, easily read online, called Memorials of a Consecrated Life with lots of details about the Lutton family. Samuel Tucker was the proprietor of the Belfast Commercial Chronicle which published the obituary for Hugh Beattie that I shared. I believe he wrote that himself along with several others for your relatives. Wesley Weir wrote an interesting blog entry about Samuel Tucker:

https://irishmethodistgenealogy.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/samuel-tucker-…

Lucy Anna Trotter may have been living in Dublin at the time of her marriage. That should be on the civil registration. I know her mother had remarried to Samuel Wright and had been living in Dublin at some point. I do have the marriage announcement (Freeman's Journal, 9 Oct 1874):

October 6, at the Methodist Church, Abbey-street, Dublin, by the Rev Edward Best, assisted by the Rev William Crawford, AM, and the Rev Frederick A Trotter, brother of the bride, James Marshal Beattie, of Blackwatertown, to Lucy Anna, youngest daughter of the late John C Trotter, of Belfast, and Holywood.

Hi Elzabel, you mentioned that you shared an obituary for Hugh Beattie from the Belfast Commercial Chronical; would you be able to share, or direct me to the link?

I have started following the above discussion again with keen interest.

Thank you Elzabel

Lots of interesting information. I've heard the story of Frances Trotter emigrating with to New Zealand. They were so intrepid in those days! We also have a copy of the Lutton book somewhere in the family. My mother used to talk about Ann Lutton who lived in Moira and spoke about 30 Languages. 

I saw a gravestone in Benburb with both Isabella Beattie who died in 1892 aged 83  and James M Beattie who died in 1920.  I assumed this was my great grandfather James Marshall. The other two names are John and Margaret Beattie. I'm not sure who they were. Any further information you have on Lucy Ann (Anna?) would be most interesting  

Leslie

I have just joined this site, having embarked on a search of my Scottish and Irish heritage after finding my great great grandather, Hugh Beattie (1817-1890), came from County Armagh to Merry Vale New South Wales near Wagga Wagga. I am searching for his origin and found his father, John Beatty (1785-1833 married Elizabeth Holmes) and grandather, Hugh Beatty (1747-1839?) but cannot find Hugh Snr's wife or his family or their history.  My father, John Alfred Beattie (1928-2011) told me we came from Scotland after 1745, but could not tell me precisely who emigrated or when. It seems there is no connectino to Culloden as my father suggested.  I'd like to see when this happened and what ancestors stayed behind.  I gather from some publications that some were reivers.  I would be very grateful for some guidance. I have started my family tree on Geni, which has not given me any real clues beyond John Beatty of 1785.

Nicholas Beattie b.1961, Tasmania Australia

Beattie is certainly a reiver surname, so the Scottish Borders is one possibility for the family’s origins.  The majority of Scots settlers moved to Ireland in the 1600s, rather than post 1745. That’s not to say that yours didn’t arrive then, but in general, by the mid 1700s Scots were leaving Ireland again in large numbers (for the US, Canada, Australia and Britain mainly for economic reasons eg poor harvests due to the weather, increasing rents & lack of spare land) and so your family would have been bucking the trend if they arrived then.  Though of Scottish origins, most reivers tended to end up Church of Ireland, rather than Presbyterian the main Scottish denomination, so that can sometimes be an additional clue as their origins. Do you know what denomination your family was?

I don’t see any Beatties in the Muster Rolls for Co. Armagh c 1630. That suggests your ancestors arrived in the area after that time.

http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20Families/BORDER%20SURNAMES%20%202.htm

Hi Nick, I have only just for the first time seen your post to my original thread. I am your 3rd cousin John Beattie. Your G Grandfather John was a brother to my G Grandfather James. I have a comprehensive family tree of the decendants  Hugh Beattie and Mary Rolston and also from Hughs uncle James. In my research I have found Hugh's parents John and Elizabeth and, like you, John's father Hugh and not his spouse. I have heard the same stories regarding the reivers but cannot find any records that relate. There is quite a lot of Beattie history written by Dame Mary Gilmore who is our cousin but it is a hard to substantiate all that she says. I have not been able to find the year dates of birth for GGG Grandfather John or his father Hugh but it appears you have. I would be very interested in sharing information with you.

Regards

John Beattie

Thank you Elwyn and John for your replies. This has opened a new world for me.  In answer to Elwyn's question, my family were a combination of Methodist and Presbyterian. Two of Hugh's sons, John Rolston Beattie and Arnold Locke Beattie, both killed at Poziers in 1916, were Methodist and Presbyterian respectively according to their ID tags (see attached). Coincidentally, my mother is Methodist, being descended from the Hyems of Essex, and my father Presbyterian.

I would love to learn more of the Reviers and my Scottish connections.  I recently found a John Beattie who is an announcer on BBC Radioo Scotland.  He gave me some names of his ancestors, but they have led me nowhere so far.

I have  biography of Mary Gilmore, Courage a Grace, by WH (Bill) Wilde, Melbourne University Press, in which HughBeattie is mentioned.  She was very proud of him, claiming he was a very kind humanitarian.  He was kind to the local Aborigines and refused to harass or poison them (apparently they were given poisoned flour).

Bill Wilde did say some of Mary's claims were dubious, including circumstances surrounding her relationship with Henry Lawson in that she claimed to have inspired him in his writing to an extent not supported by other sources.  Neverthless, it is reasonably settled that he proposed to her, that his mother disapproved and in any event Mary declined. They remained close, but his marriage to Bertha Bredt without informing Mary caused a rift.

If you want, I can share the photos off some of Hugh and Mary's descendants I have found over the past year. My uncle Laurie Beattie has a large number of documents and photos of John and Arnold Beattie and letters of the time they were in Egypt and France between 1915 and 1916.

Thank you Nick for the photos, I didn’t have these. I do have the complete army service records of John Rolston and Arnold Locke as I do for four other Beattie soldiers. There were 7 Beattie cousins who fought in WW1 and only three returned.

I would like to make contact if you are interested, my email is johnbt@y7mail.com .

Regards

John Beattie

The broad historical background to the Reivers arrival in Ireland is that when King James I became King of England in 1603, he was already King of Scotland and so then became the first King of both countries.  For hundreds of years the Scottish Borders had been fairly lawless and travellers were routinely robbed, and cattle often stolen and herded across the border by moonlight.  The new King was particularly keen to stamp this out because he saw it as an obstacle to commerce between the 2 countries, and being joint ruler that bothered him more than his predecessors.

At the same time he had the problem of Ireland. The Spanish Armada had recently attempted to invade England and further invasions by the Spanish or French were feared. Ireland was seen as a possible jumping off point for such an invasion and understandably, the native Irish could not be relied on to support the English or resist any invasion. So the solution was to plant trusted settlers from England, Wales & Scotland in Ireland, in large numbers, to subdue the native Irish and be on hand to deal with any invasion. King James I was a Scot and so particularly favoured his fellow countrymen. Much of Ulster, including Tyrone & Armagh was heavily settled by Scots. During the 1600s, some 100,000 Scots settled in Ireland representing something like 10% of the entire Scottish nation. They didn’t all come as part of the Plantation. Some settled in the 1640s when General Munro's 10,000 strong Scottish army was disbanded at Carrickfergus after the 1641 uprising, and a further batch came in the 1690s due to famine in Scotland.

As far as the Reivers were concerned, King James I decided to move large numbers of them to Ireland. He needed settlers in Ireland and he wanted to get rid of the Reivers from the Borders, or at least stop the criminality by breaking their control of that area. So moving them to Ireland was a bit of a masterstroke which killed two birds with one stone. So if your ancestors are Reivers, they probably arrived in the first 20 years of the 1600s, as part of the Plantation of Ireland.

There are no records of individual settlers at that time. We do know the names of the big landowners (Scots & English) but not of their tenants and others who followed them.  DNA might get you back to Scotland but there are no comprehensive paper records in Scotland or Ireland which record individuals names or arrivals.

If you visit Border towns like Selkirk, Hawick, Galashiels & Jedburgh, you will find a strong Reiver tradition with folk & food festivals every summer.  You can go for a Reiver walk by moonlight and have a 16th century banquet. The usual nonsense. For example, see:

http://www.hawickreivers.com

There are a fair number of Mehargs in Ulster, and the common explanation for their surname is that it is Graham (a common Borders name) reversed. They were reportedly Reivers who objected to being moved to Ireland and reversed the spelling of their name in protest. How accurate an explanation that is, is debatable but it is widely believed.

Finally, regarding Methodism. (You mention that some ancestors were Methodist). Methodism took a lot longer to become established in Ireland as a separate denomination than in England. In Ireland there was considerable resistance to separating from the Church of Ireland. It was 1815 before Methodists agreed to conduct their own baptisms. However because of continuing loyalty and other factors, many continued to use the Church of Ireland for sacraments for many years after this date and it was 1871 before all Methodists routinely performed their own baptisms.

For marriages, the earliest ceremonies conducted by a Methodist Minister in Ireland that I am aware of, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square, the first Methodist church in Ireland). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers in Ireland (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So the shortage of Ministers contributed to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland. In addition, in the early years, many Methodist Meeting Houses were not licensed for marriages so that too contributed to couples marrying in the Church of Ireland.

So to summarise, you are unlikely to find many Methodist baptisms before 1830. Few marriages before the 1840s and only a handful for many years after that. If there are no Methodist records in the location you are interested in, I would search the Church of Ireland instead, as that’s the most likely place to find the relevant event.

Not many Methodist Meeting Houses have graveyards and so they may be buried in public or Church of Ireland graveyards (which are open to all denominations).

So if your Irish ancestors were Methodist, then originally they would have been Church of Ireland. And that fits with Reivers. For some reason – and I have not been able to get a definitive explanation – Reivers and others from the Scottish borders tended not to be Presbyterian (the main Scottish denomination) and in Ireland generally appear to have joined the Church of Ireland.

Bear in mind that Beattie/Beatty is a fairly common name. In the 1901 census of Scotland there were 5800 and in Ireland 3767.

Elwyn, thank you for this information. It is a revelation to me and I appreciate its depth. I will keep on with my research and share it with you as I find it, although you seem to have an amazing knowledge and resrource. What a coincidence that I married a Graham, Patricia  Claire, born in Inverness in 1961 and who came to Australia and met me at school in 1973. Her father, David Edward Graham, a Fettes graduate in the same yea as Lord Wolfe, has folowed his own ancestry, but has not rached beyond the 19th century. I doubt David will appreciate being descended from reivers! He's a respectable GP.

Nick Beattie

Reivers descendants are very proud of their background. Their view is that reiving was a necessity, without which they’d have starved. A self serving explanation perhaps but one you’ll find promoted. I should think most of us have some ancestors we'd be a bit ashamed of. The answer is to spin it round to put a polish on it.

Elwyn, I'm quickly appreciating the Reivers' important place in history.  I asked my father-in-law of his knowledge of them and, to my pleasant surprise, he is well aware, and proud, of his own reiver heritage.   He believes many of Prince Charles' men at Culloden hailed from Ireland and may have included Beatties, so my father may have been correct in his belief the Beatties were present at Culloden

Nick B

Nick, there is a book called 'The Steel Bonnets' by George MacDonald Fraser which I would recommend as a good read. The book takes a no nonsense look at the Anglo-Scottish border reivers and the Beattie's are mentioned several times and listed as one of the well known 'Riding' (Raiding)surnames. The Beattie's were concentrated in the West March area near the border of Scotland and England. I found this an interesting and informative book,  it does not give a conclusive link to our family but considering the stories passed down through the Beattie generations it is likely that the reivers could be our ancestors.

John 

Nick,

Can’t tell you whether your family fought at Culloden, but what I can tell you is that if they did, they were on the English side fighting against Bonnie Prince Charlie, not for him!

The background is that King James II was forced to abdicate because he was a Catholic and was trying to make Catholicism the state denomination and become an “absolute monarch” (ie ruling by decree and ignoring Parliament and the people).  England, Scotland & Wales were all by then staunchly Protestant and did not welcome any of this this. So he had to flee to France and in 1688 William of Orange (James II’s Protestant cousin) plus his wife Mary (James II’s eldest daughter, and also a Protestant) were invited to become King & Queen instead. 

The deposed James II tried to regain the throne and arrived in Ireland with an army. There were various battles but the deciding one was the Battle of the Boyne in 1690, at which he was defeated by King William supported by a large mainly Protestant army. He retreated back to France. So at that time, nearly all Protestants in Ireland fought for King William against the exiled King James II, essentially because they perceived a Protestant King William as being more likely to allow them some degree of a democratic way of life.

In 1715 James’s son (the Old Pretender) attempted another invasion (in Scotland this time rather than Ireland) but was defeated, and as you well know, James’ grandson Prince Charlie (the Young Pretender) tried once again in 1745/6.  His supporters were mostly Catholics from the western Islands and Highlands (where Presbyterianism hadn’t yet taken hold) and as you say there were Irish soldiers too. But Bonnie Prince Charlie’s army was mostly Catholic.  Any Protestants from Ireland who fought in the ‘45 were implacably opposed to Bonnie Prince Charlie and most definitely fought on the Government (English side). The majority of Lowland Scots didn’t welcome Bonnie Prince Charlie either, but history doesn’t always reflect that aspect of his campaign. It’s all painted up romantically as the valiant Scots and Irish fighting the nasty English. But actually the English had very significant support in both Scotland and in some parts of Ireland.

Elwyn

I am the grandson of the John Crawford Trotter you have mentioned . He did considerable resaerch on the family,  all now sitting in an old trunk I recently located. Would be glad to dive in ,if  it would be of help. Ross

From Findmypast.com

Will of John Beatty of Terogerty, parish of Clonfeckle, Co. Armagh dated 5 Feb 1785: son Hugh, son William, son-in-law Joel Bates, son-in-law Samuel Holaday, wife Mary Beatty als Holmes, daughters Elizabeth and Sarah, son John. Appoint wife Mary, son Hugh, and William McCormick as executors. Witnessed by Samuel Bates, William McCormick and Hugh Robinson

Source: Crossle Genealogical Abstracts, (Parcel 1A 32 15, v. B cont.) Beatty notebooks, v. 6-12. Source Armagh Wills

Hi

im Michelle. I am in Australia but have ancestry through UK ( Ireland actually).Beattie, Holmes, Noonan, I have many Mary, Kathleen’s, James, John, Hugh’s in family tree very confusing. 
I can trace my grandad to NSW Australia. His father James and former John’s and Hughes with lots of siblings.

any ideas as this is new to me and confusing. I started on Genie website and have found some info so far.Michelle

Hi Michelle, 

I have a definite connection with your family and will provide you with relevant copies of my research. I have emailed you. 

It is worth your while to read all the information in this message feed as it is mostly all relevant to your family history, the volunteers at IXO have been fabulous with their help.

John 

Hi all, I've just signed up and read this whole feed. Some great information on a branch of family I didn't realise I was connected to until yesterday. 
 

my research interest is the Rolston family. I have back to John and Susan Rolston including William (who migrated to Australia in 1853 and who is my multi times gt grandfather)and his family. Finding this info on his cousin/sister Mary and her Beattie family has been wonderful. 

thank you so much for your generosity in sharing your research notes and stories. 
 

Most of my research is in ancestry.com.au and I'm happy to share what I have too if there's interest in the Aussie branch (es) of the family. 

patricia