o'brien matthew and daly mary and their children philip (born 1867) and patrick (born 1868)

Statutory birth registration only started in Ireland in 1864, and in the early years not every birth was registered. So that may be why Philip & Patrick don?t appear in the statutory records.

The information on familysearch appears to be either from submitted information or from church records. Bailieborough is in the RC parish of Killann. Transcriptions of their parish records are on the rootsireland site (pay to view). If you want to see the originals, there?s a copy in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast and another in the National Library in Dublin. A personal visit is required to access them. Baptisms start in 1835.

Bailieborough is a town, a civil parish and a civil registration area. I?d say you would need to look at the records to decide whether the family came from the town or the surrounding area (assuming a townland is given). The information on baptism records can be fairly limited. Often just the child's name, the parents and the 2 sponsors.

1. Civil registration records are available from the General Register Office (GRO). These start from 1864. You can access the website here:http://www.groireland.ie/research.htm  I would have thought if they are on family search they would be on GRO, does the records give volume and page no. ?

the FamilySearch record has Philip as OBrien, and looks to me like an extracted civil birth - as it includes a page number in the 'address' - i.e. the 0437 see : Philip OBrien, 13 Feb 1867

The corresponding BMD Index entry needed to order a cert is this one :

Name:Philip Obrien
Event Type:Birth
Year : 1867
Registration District: Bailieborough
Volume : 2 / Page :437

Unless there was some sort of mistake in the FamilySearch transcriptions, or in the original Index books the you should be able to order a research cert from the GRO using those references.

Thanks Shane
Have to admit I only ordered patricks and when it came back no trace I assumed that the older brother would be the same
Thanks for restoring my faith in familysearch and in the gro

Thanks Shane
Have to admit I only ordered patricks and when it came back no trace I assumed that the older brother would be the same
Thanks for restoring my faith in familysearch and in the gro

similar detail for Patrick 1868 - the extracted civil record here

Patrick's page reference on the extracted record is 450, which probably matches with this BMD Index record :

Name : Patrick O Briens
Event Type : Birth
Year : 1868
Registration District : Bailieborough
Volume : 2 / Page : 450

see : here

24 R No trace

A search has been made in the records for an entry relating to the Birth?of Patrick Brien?for the years 1866 to ?1870???inclusive. ?No entry, corresponding with the particulars given in your recent application, was found in that period.

I will resubmit in the format you suggested and I will let you know
thanks shane

with the index references there should be no searching required, so should be easier for them to go directly to the correct book and page to check. I suspect the spelling complicated things for Patricks birth - with or without the O, with or without a space, or ' etc. and also with the additional s at the end which if included as it is in the index and extract would cause the entry to the be listed after the main list of O'Brien births

just as well there were extracted records in this case, otherwise you would have to check dozens of possible certs..

good luck!

The O has complicated my research at every turn!

Thanks ahoghill
I love original documents so rootsireland doesnt offer me much.

are there baptism records in national library? I thought nli just had state records. That would be worth a trip

Thanks carmel
I am going to retry gro using the page and volume number

Yes there are copies of RC parish records in the NLI. The reference number for Killanne is Pos 5349. See:

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseact…

thanks ahoghill

Thanks to shane I re applied for patricks birth cert using the film number... and it worked!!!!!!

The cert tells me the family's residence in 1868 is Togher

Philips birth cert has also been located and shows the family residence in 1867 as Rockfield

Are these places near each other?

Are they in the same parish?

The townland of Togher consists of just under 300 acres, and is in the civil parish of Killinkere. It's located about 8km north east of the town of Virginia. Here's the townland on the first Edition OSI map (townland border shown in red)

There seems to be two townlands named Rockfield in Co. Cavan, one in Crosserlough civil parish, and the other in Killashandra civil parish. The Rockfield in Crosserlough civil parish would be closer to Togher townland. What registration district and sub-district in on Philip's birth cert ?

The district should be Bailieborough... the name of the sub-district and name of the registrar could help figure out which location applies

hang on a sec - just spotted that there's another townland named Togher that might fit better as it's closer to one of the Rockfield townlands. 

Not sure that the registration district fits yet - post the district/sub-district details, and registrar's name if legible, from the two certs if you get a chance ... I'll have a closer look in the morning

just for ref here's the other Togher townland on the 1st edition OSI map  and the Rockfield townland that's nearby. These two townlands are abt. 6km (~ 4 miles) from each other and both in Crosserlough civil parish close to the same road running approximately north east from the town of Kilnaleck.

Can you scan these, so I can see them, if you wish to send them to my email address please do it is ocallaghan.carmel@gmail.com, as some times I cant open the attachments on the site.  Regards Carmel 

Thanks Carmel and Shane

Both certs are in the union of bailieboro and the district of bailieboro

The registrar name??? J Clarke????

I have sent you an email Carmel

Yes that looks like Togher, that townland would be between Bailieborough and Virginia.  Registrar's name looks like J or G Clarke.  Send through the other one also, I will look at it in the morning.

Regards Carmel

A Thomas Clarke was Superintendant Registrar for Bailieborough district in 1868, and at the same time a Joseph Clarke (M.R.C.S.E. L.K.Q.C.P.I.) was the Medical officer and registrar of Bailieborough Dispensary district. This was one of five sub-districts in the overall district.

Thanks Shane!

its definitely J - when i look at Thirteenth in Date and Place of Birth i realise that its definitely not a T in Signature

so its Joseph Clarke

so which parish am i after when i go to NLI (as suggested by Aghoghill, thanks!)

Patrick born in Togher and Philip born in Rockfield - both in the District of Bailieboro, the Union of Bailieboro and the County of Cavan, both signed by J Clarke

Carmel, i have sent you the second cert by email, thanks for looking at it!

The locations and civil districts are not quite matching up with details I have, but maybe  boundaries moved slightly over date involved...

The first townland of Togher I mentioned is in Killinkere civil parish, which seems to have been in the RC Parish of the same name. This parish is located just south-west of the parish of Killanne which covered the town of Bailieborough. This is included on the same NLI film (Pos 5349) as Killanne, as mentioned above by Ahoghill.

I think the other Togher townland mentioned by Carmel, is the 2nd one I mentioned closer to that townland of Rockfield and both of these are in Crosserlough civil parish, and the RC parish of the same name. NLI film references is Pos. 5344.

You can see a map of the RC parishes i the county along with film references, dates etc on the John Grenham/Irish Times website here

I would definitely start the NLI search with the Killanne records, and then the Killinkere records on the same film, as these would fit with the registrar and district on the civil certs. I would have thought that Rockfield townland, at least the one I see, is a little to far west for Bailieborough district & sub-district, but a boundary change or a registration slightly outside the official area could account for that, or possibly the Rockfield mentioned on that cert is a local place name or estate near that first Togher, rather than the townland I found

The RootsIreland index is showing likely matches for the baptisms of Patrick & Philip under Killinkere parish, which would be included on Pos 5349, the parish is sometimes listed as Killinkere & Mullagh. The NLI index also mentions that the same film includes an undated list of inhabitants of Barony of Castlerahan, which might also be worth a look through as most of Killinkere parish is included in this barony.

Philip's baptism is showing as 1866 rather than 1867 as indicated by the civil birth registration, although could be difficult to make out in the baptism register or even a late civil registration.

Yes it definietly says Rockfield, I did a search of the 1901 Census and Rockfield appears to be is in Killeshandra & sometimes it is called Loughrafin... though your names are not on it...  I have asked my Bailieborough friends on facebook to see if they know of the townland called Rockfield.  There is also Rockfield in Kells area.  Rockfield in Crosserlough has a partial census for 1821.

I looked for Dalys in 1821 Census and there are quite a few and there is a townland called Crosserlough Rocks.

There is one Philip Brien in Lurgan aged 3 with his grandparents in 1821, but these are only partial census.  http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1821/Cavan/Lurgan/Capanagh/…

This would be Virginia direction...

Dalys would be prevalent in the Mullagh, Virginia area. There are O'Briens in the Ednagora area of Bailieborough.

Remember to keep us updated with your search!

Best wishes

Clare Doyle

Genealogy Support