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Haly Family Kinsale/Cork City 1820/30s

Hi,  We are trying to validate a Kinsale/Cork City family with parents John Haly and Margaret Barry who we believe had at least six children:

  • John born about 1825

  • David born about 1826

  • William born about 1828

  • Johanna born about 1832

  • Julia born about 1834

  • Matthew born about 1837 

Below is the evidence we have for this family:

Johanna:  

Johanna Haley died in Boston, Massachusetts, USA in 1899 and on her death certificate her parents are listed as John Haley and Margaret Barry.

We believe Johanna emigrated from Kinsale with her daughter Annie about 1867 because a granddaughter of Annie who is now 91 years old told us that her understanding was that her grandmother Annie came from Kinsale.  We also found a marriage record in Kinsale for an Owen Sullivan and Johanna Haly in 1847 and Annie’s death record listed her parents as Owen Sullivan and Johanna Haley while her marriage record listed Eugene Sullivan and Johanna.  We believe her father went by both Eugene and Owen.  We also believe that Johanna’s husband Eugene/Owen died in Kinsale before Johanna and Annie emigrated.  We also found birth records for Annie Sullivan and her siblings Michael, Margaret, Julia and John and death records for Julia and John who died as children in Kinsale.  So, we are confident that Johanna with her husband Eugene/Owen Sullivan lived in Kinsale before she emigrated to the USA and that Johanna was born in Kinsale or somewhere near Kinsale.

We also know that Johanna and Annie emigrated to and settled in East Boston, Massachusetts, USA.

There is a 4th cousin DNA match (58 centimorgans over 5 DNA segments) between a GG grandson of Johanna and a descendant of Ellen/Hellen Donovan who we believe is Julia’s daughter.  There is also a 4th cousin DNA match (34 centimorgans over 4 DNA segments) between a great granddaughter of Johanna and a descendant of Ellen/Hellen Donovan the daughter of a Julia Haly and Patrick Donovan.   This is strong evidence that Johanna and Julia were sisters.

Matthew:   

Matthew also immigrated to Boston, Massachusetts and on his 1914 death certificate his parents are also listed as John Healy and Margaret Barry.  This and the fact that Matthew and Johanna lived close to each other in East Boston is good evidence that Matthew was a brother of Johanna and therefore Julia also.

Furthermore, we believe Matthew is also from Kinsale because we know he was married to an Ellen Donovan and we found an 1859 marriage record for a Matthew Haly and an Ellen Donovan in Kinsale.  Ellen’s death certificate indicates that her maiden name was Donovan and her husband was Matthew Healy who lived at the address in East Boston we know from census records is Matthews home address. 

We also believe after Matthew arrived in Boston he published a “Searching for Missing Friends” in a Boston Newspaper (“The Boston Pilot”) in 1864 looking for his brothers John, William, and David and indicated that they were “Natives of Kinsale near Ballymartin.”  We have not been able to find a place near Kinsale called Ballymartin, but a representative from the Kinsale Historical Society suggested that it might be Ballymartle which is in between Cork City and Kinsale.  This supports the case that Matthew had brothers John, William and David. 

There is a DNA match (35 centermorgans shared across 3 DNA segments) between a GG grandson of Matthew and a descendant of Ellen/Hellen Donovan who listed Julia Haly as her mother on her death certificate. Additionally, there is another DNA match (24.5 centermorgans shared across 2 DNA segments) between a GG grandson of Johanna and a GG grandson of Matthew.  This would support the case that Matthew had sisters Julia and Johanna. 

David

We believe David emigrated to New York City, USA as indicated in the request published by Matthew referred to above and moved to Illinois, USA according to the 1860 US census.  We know David married a Mary Hennessy who was born in Ireland, but we do not know where they married. We believe Mary died in Feb 1865 in Illinois. We believe David then moved to Boston, Massachusetts, USA between 1865 and 1870.  We know he remarried a Mary Welch in Chelsea, Massachusetts, USA which borders East Boston, in 1870.  David’s marriage record to Mary Welch lists his parents and John and Margaret and his death record lists only his father as John Haely. 

There is a 4th cousin DNA match (55 centimorgans over 2 DNA segments) between a descendant of David and a GG grandson of William and another 4th cousin (21.5 centimorgans over 3 DNA segments) between a descendant of David and a GG grandson of Johanna and another a 4th cousin DNA match (46 centimorgans over 4 DNA segments) between a descendant of David and a great granddaughter of Johanna supporting the case that David had a sister Johanna, a sister Julia and a brother Matthew.

William: 

We know William married a Mary Conley, but we do not know where they married.  We do know that his first two children were born in NYC per US census records.  William then also moved to Illinois, we believe with his brother David according to the US 1860 census.  We know that William brought up a family in Batavia, Kane, Illinois, United States, USA which is close to Chicago.  We do not have any marriage or death records indicating who Williams parents were. 

William also passed down via family lore that he had brothers David, and Matthew and a sister Julia.

There is a 4th cousin DNA match (57 centimorgans over 6 DNA segments) between a descendant of William and a descendant of a great granddaughter of Johanna and another DNA match (44 centimorgans over 3 DNA segments) between a descendant of William and a GG grandson of Johanna supporting the case that William had a sister Johanna, a sister Julia, a brother Matthew and a brother David.

Julia:

We believe Julia stayed in Ireland and married a Patrick Donovan.  We have found two marriage records for a Julia Haly marrying a Patrick Donovan one in Kinsale 19 Jan 1853 listing BK St. as an address which we believe is Barracks St. which is the street to Ballymartle and Cork City and one marriage record in Cork City (St Finbarr (south) 24 Sep 1852.   We also have found the following birth/baptismal records for children born to a Patrick Donovan and a Julia Haly in Kinsale and Cork City:

Jeremiah born/baptized 27 Nov 1853 in Kinsale

Honora born/baptized 2 Apr 1855 in Kinsale, B Row

Patrick born/baptized 28 Oct 1856 in Kinsale, B Row

Daniel born/baptized 11 Apr 1858 in Kinsale

Margaret born/baptized 13 Dec 1859 Kinsale, Butcher Row

Mary born/baptized 27 May 1861 in Kinsale, Ridtown

Willian born/baptized 15 Mar 1863 in Kinsale

Julia born/baptized 1 Nov 1864 in Cork City in St Finbarr (south)

Ellen born/baptized 6 Feb 1866 in Cork City in St Finbarr (south)

So, we suspect that Patrick and Julia lived in Kinsale until 1863 and then moved to Cork City between 15 Mar 1863 and 1 Nov 1864. 

We have also found an Ellen/Hellen Donovan who emigrated to Boston and brought up a family in Revere, Massachusetts, USA near Boston.  She listed her parents as Julia Haley and Patrick Donovan on her death certificate.  We also have DNA matches to this Ellen/Hellen family.  We believe this Ellen/Hellen Donovan was the Ellen Donovan born to Patrick and Julia Haly on 6 Feb 1866.  However, Ellen/Hellen consistently lists her birth year as 1868, but we believe that it was common to be inaccurate about ages in those days.   But we believe there is a strong possibility that Ellen/Hellen is Johanna’s sister Julia’s daughter which would support the case that Johanna and Julia were sisters.

We believe Patrick and Julia’s son Patrick born/baptized 28 Oct 1856 married a Mary Drinan (marriage record listed Patrick’s father as Patrick) in St Finbarr (south) and they had a daughter Julia born 23 May 1880 in St Finbarr (south).  We believe this daughter emigrated to Boston in July 1898 and on her emigration records she listed her great uncle Matthew Healy as her sponsor at the same street address as what we had for Matthew which supports the case that Matthew had a sister Julia.

Our 91 your old cousin also remembers a Donovan family living on the same street as her grandmother Annie and her great grandmother Johanna in East Boston who she recalls as possibly being a family relation but did not know what the relation was.  Again, this would also support the case that Johanna who died in Boston and Julia who stayed in Ireland were sisters.

John:  

 We have found no records for John other than the Search for Missing Friends request published by Matthew.  We believe he may have also moved from NYC to Illinois where the vital records are not readily available or stayed in NYC where again vital records are scares. 

Traditional Irish Naming patterns

William’s first daughter was Margaret and first son was John

Johanna second son was John and she had a daughter Margaret who we believe was her first daughter but could have been her second daughter if we had not found a record for her first daughter.

David’s third daughter was Margaret and he had no sin John

Julia had no son John or daughter Margaret

We have no record of any children for John

Conclusion      

The above evidence makes a strong case that Johanna, Julia, John, David and Matthew we all siblings and that their parents were John Haly and Margaret Barry who brought up their family in Ballymartle.  However, to help prove this conclusion we need to validate that Julia Haly who married Patrick Donovan was in fact Johanna’s sister.  The two marriage records for Julia Haly and Patrick Donovan (one in Kinsale and one in Cork City) casts some doubt on our conclusion.  We would like some help determining what these two marriage records, that are so close to each other in terms of time, mean.

Request

  1. Help validating if the two marriage records for Patrick Donovan and Julia Haly in Kinsale and Cork City are the same family recording their marriage in both the Kinsale and Cork City St. Finbarr (south) or two separate families. We suspect it is the same family because the dates are so close 24 Sep 1852 and 19 Jan 1853, just 117 days apart. We also believe that the family of John Haly and Margaret Barry lived in Ballymartle which is between Kinsale and Cork City and because of that, the family had ties to both Kinsale and Cork City particularly the southern part of Cork City where St. Finbarr (south) likely referred to. Also, we can only find birth records for children born to Patrick Donovan and Julia Haly in Kinsale or Cork City that are sequential, 1853-1863 in Kinsale and then 1864-1866 in Cork City. If there had been a second Patrick Donovan and Julia Haly family in Cork City, it would be unlikely that they would have their first child 12 years after they married (Julia in 1864).Of course, the Patrick Donovan and Julia Haly in Cork City could have had no children.

  2. Help confirming who Ellen/Hellen Donovan parents were. We know from her death certificate that they were Patrick Donovan and Julia Haly, but were they the Patrick Donovan and Julia Haly who gave birth to an Ellen in 1866?

  3. Help finding any other information on the John Haly and Margaret Barry who we believe lived in Ballymartle. We did find a John Haly and Margaret Barry family who lived in Cork City, but they had children between 1856 and 1863 which would preclude them being the parents of Johanna, Julia, John, Willian, David and Matthew. In fact, we thought that it might be possible that the person filling out death certificates may have confused an older brother (our lost John Haly) and his wife as parents but the consistency of listed parents as John Haly and Margaret Barry among the Haly children seems to indicate that this was not the case.However, it is still odd that we cannot find any US records for a John Haly and do find a John Haly and Margaret Barry in Cork City in the 1850’s.John may have emigrated to NYC then went back to Ireland.

Any help other members could provide would be greatly appreciated

rfcronin

Tuesday 19th June 2018, 09:46PM

Message Board Replies

  • Good morning from Kinsale,                                                                                                                                                                I have four (4) Hally's in my data base of Deaths in the greater Kinsale area and they are;                                                    Catherine Haly, age 28, of Garrylucas, Ballinspittle, in Courceys Parish (about four miles south of Kinsale). She died on 15th Nov.1888  --  born 1860 approx.                                                                                                                                                 Denis Haly, of Granreagh, Ballinspittle, died on 18th Nov.1888  age 2 1/2 yrs -- born approx 1885.                                             Johanna Haly, age 66, of Ardkilly, Sandycove, Kinsale (about two miles outside Kinsale), died 15th Oct. 1884  --  born 1818.   Margaret Haly, age 7, Friars Street, Kinsale, died 4th August 1878  --  bron 1871 approx.

    If you search www.genealogy.ie (it's FREE) you will find under Civil Records Haly = 7 births, 1 Marriage, above 4 deaths.        Under Church records there are 118 births, and 24 Marriages. Sadly no deaths.

    Michael J Barry, Compass Hill, Kinsale.  EMAIL michaelbarry1601@yahoo.ie                                                                                                                                          

     

     

     

    Hi,

    Monday 29th October 2018, 10:52AM
  • re Owen, Eugene

    I had always regarded Owen and Eugene as interchangeable; possibly that 'Owen' the Irish form of 'Eugene', until your post inspired me to check. I have come across 2 sites that appear to be detailed, with support:

    behindthename.com

    This site suggests "Eoghan" means 'born from the yew tree' or is derived from "Eugene",  providing a pronunciation guide.

    fhr.kiwicelts.com

    The latter provides a reasonable explanation that both Eugene and Owen  are English equivalents of the Irish name Eoghain

    Ref: http://fhr.kiwicelts.com/Research/Gen_Nicknames.html

    Congratulations on your research methods. Your thoroughness and deductive processes are exemplary.

    Best wishes

    Eire2Go

    Eire2Go

    Monday 29th October 2018, 10:48PM
  • Hi, 

       Thank you for your post and the references.  I appreciate now being able to cite a reference regarding the Owne - Eugene connection.                

    Regards,

    Bob Cronin

     

     

    rfcronin

    Tuesday 30th October 2018, 04:10PM