Roger Sullivan and Mary Mccarthy

Hi Glenda,

will certainly have a look for you and get back to you asap.

Frank Fahy

IrelandXO

frankfahy054@gmail.com

Hi Glenda,

will certainly have a look for you and get back to you asap.

Frank Fahy

IrelandXO

frankfahy054@gmail.com

Thanks Frank much appreciated

Glenda

Hi Glenda,

hope the following will be good news for you. I have traced the following children of Roger Sullivan & Mary McCarthy for you.

Bridget (Biddy) Sullivan Baptised 12 Jul 1844     Schull West

Denis Sullivan               Baptised 02 Feb 1852    Schull West

Jeremiah  Sullivan         Baptised 27 Dec 1857   Schull West

While the year of Baptism was a couple of years earlier than expected, I have found over the years that people who immigrated, and especvially to USA, Australia and New Zealand frequently changed their age upwards and downwards. It seemed to vary from country to country and it appeared toi be in some cases that they needed to be older to enter their chosen country or younger if they were a little too old for the work they were undertaking. Many in this era were also illiterate or unable to calculate their age or may have been given the incorrect year of birth by their parents. In some cases, men often made themselves younger to impress their future wife.

I have carried out quite extensive searches on Roger and Mary and their families in all of Cork County and these are the only ones that fit the bill between 1800 - 1880. I have also searched the Civil records from 1864 - 1910 for a death record for Roger Sullivan but failed to locate any.

Let me know what you think on above or if there is anything else I can do for you.

Frank Fahy

IrelandXO

frankfahy054@gmail.com

Hello Frank, What can I say other than I consider myself very fortunate so thank-you so much for kindness and your time  spent on my research enquiry. It looks like and I could be wrong that Mary may have had miscarriages due to the gap in her childrens baptism years. Some people who don't live in Ireland seem to  have a preconceived notion that all Irish had big families especially Catholics when this was not always the case as I found out with another tree I was working on a few years ago. I dislike asking for another favour but would it be possible for you to find out if Bridget married?. Also where could I look re ship/passenger records for Jeremiah and Denis. I have checked Family Search and Ancestry when I had a months subscription but to no avail ?. As previously mentioned I found out Jeremiah was born in Cork after I ordered his marriage cert however a relative now deceased believed he was born in Kerry, then on his probate record (had no will) his wife stated that he was born in England.So unless we have proof nothing is gospel so to speak is it. Again many thanks Frank

KInd regards  Glenda

Hi Glenda,

No good news on Bridget i'm afraid, I checked on Church and Civil Records for a marriage of Bridget but found nothing between 1860 (when she would have been 16) and 1890. I found four marriages for Bridget's bu none with a father Roger. If you want the detail of her and the other's Baptism's, I can send you the links or copies to them, just let me know. I would be very confident that this is the correct family and that there were no other children. Given the fact that you got Jeremiah's Marriage Cert and that it states place of birth as Cork, I would totally disregard the info that he was born in Kerry.. In my almost thirty years of genealogy research experience, the fact that Denis & Jeremiah were the names of the sons of Roger & Mary and that no other family of a Roger Sullivan had those names together in a family in the possible period is more than enough proof of them being the family you are looking for. The name Roger Sullivan is relatively rare in the vast Sullivan Clan and the record of two sons with these names combined with the parents names is indisputable proof that they are the correct family. The emphasis now should be on what proof is available that he was born in England. It should be relatively easy to find evidence of that given the English records are quite good. If you would rather examine this further in private, you can contact me on my email address below.

Frank Fahy

frankfahy054@gmai;l.com

Good morning Frank, Thanks for checking for Bridget, we cant't win them all lol. If it is not a problem can you send me the links for their baptisms then I can  print them off. I have no doubts that this is the right family. the Kerry belief was only just that as the person who thought this never knew Jeremiah as he had died when she was little and only knew his wife as a youngster . Jeremiahs wife Clara obviously got it wrong when she said he was born in England on his probate record. Both Jeremiah and Denis immigrated to Lyttleton NZ Jeremiah a Fisherman and Denis a labourer. So it all ties in. I will send away to the Archives in NZ for a passenger/ship search and hope the two Brothers came out together. All a progress in work as they say but further along now thanks to you. One last thing who can I contact in Ireland to check for a marriage that is if she married for Bridget?.

Kind regards and take care

Glenda

Forgive the intrusion, but is it possible that the brothers first sailed to Australia before crossing to New Zealand?

And is it conceivable that the ship's manifest has either or both as O'Sullivan?

Mike

Hi Glenda,

Additional info on Roger Sullivan & Mary McCarthy. Your marriage info on them is correct as seen below.

Marriage of ROGER SULLIVAN of N/R and MARY CARTHY of N/R on 9 October 1843 
Parochial Area   WEST SCHULL (GOLEEN)
Witness 1
BELL CARTHY
Witness 3
JOAN SULLIVAN 
Record_Identifier  CR-RC-MA-88585 
cork & ross.west schull (goleen).p4800.00277 

Baptism of MARY SULLIVAN of N/R on 15 April 1860
Father  ROGER SULLIVAN 
Mother  MARY MCCARTHY 
Sponsor 2  DENIS BRIEN
Sponsor 2  ELIZA BRIEN
Record_Identifier   CR-RC-BA-396753 
cork & ross.west schull (goleen).p4800.00237 

Baptism of MICHL SULLIVAN of N/R on 11 March 1855 
Father   BODGER SULLIVA
Mother   MARY CARTHY 
Sponsor 1  FLORY CANTY
Sponsor 2  JOANNA MEHIGAN
Record_Identifier   CR-RC-BA-395933 
cork & ross.west schull (goleen).p4800.00218 

Bill Fahy (brother of Frank)

Hi Glenda,

surprise, surprise, found another child of Roger & Mary.

Mary was baptised 15 Apr 1860 in South Schull. Link recorded below. All the links protovided are to the original Register entry and not the transcribed version. You can find all this information on www.irishgenealogy.ie and put in the following in the search facility. On your question of who you could write to for further information, the above is just about all the information that is available as Civil Records did not begin until 1864 in some cases and generally from 1866. I have had no luck so far in tracing a shipping list to New Zealand with Jeremiah/Denis recorded but will continue to look. Found several Jeremiah's listed for Australia most of them from "Cork" but nothing that could pin them down to Schull/Goleen and Jeremiah is a very common name among Sullivan families in Ireland then and now.

Name: Roger Sullivan

Location: Schull West

Year Range 1830 - 1870

This will give you all ceremonies where Roger & Mary were married , had children baptised or were witnesses to other marriages or were sponsors to other peoples childrens Baptisms

Link to Roger & Mary Marriage

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.west%20schull%20%28goleen%29.p4800.00277

Link to Jeremiah Baptism

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.west%20schull%20%28goleen%29.p4800.00229

Link to Mary Sullivan Baptism

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.west%20schull%20%28goleen%29.p4800.00237

Link to Biddy Sullivan Baptism

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.west%20schull%20%28goleen%29.p4800.00184

Link to Baptism of Denis Sullivan

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.west%20schull%20%28goleen%29.p4800.00208

Will get back to you if I find anything more.

Frank Fahy

frankfahy054@gmail.com

P.S Glenda

Will also check for a Marriage of Mary in Civil Records later this evening.

Frank

would somebody let me know if they attempted to respond to this query earlier today as I received a prompt that a reply had been made but nothing showed up in the mail or in IrelandXO.

Thank you,

Frank Fahy

Hello Frank  Thank-you so much for all you have done for me. And thank-you too Bill for your input. Yes what a surprise finding Mary jwell done.I had a response from a man named Mike suggesting that the Sullivan Brothers may have landed in Australia first. Thanks for your interest Mike. Thanks also for the links I will print them all off for my genealogy folder which is now getting thicker lol.I will get the Archives in NZ to do a passenger search for the Sullivans at some stage. I know Family Search have records which I have checked but to no avail, but they are not as extensive as what will be at the Archives. It was wonderful getting your reply when I opened my computer this morning as it was on my 60th birthday so thanks for the present ha ha. If you do locate any other information that would be great but don't go out of your road. Once again many thanks and take care

Kind regards  Glenda

HI again Frank, Sorry to be a pain, but your brother Bill sent a baptism for a Michael Sullivan bap 1855. Just wanting confirmation that I have interpreted this correctly and he is a brother of Jeremiah etc. I meant to tell you but forgot, my Jeremiah Sullivan had 4 children and two of them were named Roger and Michael. All starting to tie in.

Kind regards  Genda

Hi Glenda,

belated happy birthday to you, hope you had a lovely day and that I contributed to it in a small way. Today is my daughter Jane's birthday and I have always teased her by saying that I never have to guess which is the longest day of the year. Maybe your parents thought much the same on the second longest day as they waited for you to appear.

I had not seen Bill's posting about Mary & Michael until today when I read yours as I usually scroll to the bottom of the page to see the latest posting. I had not seen Michael's baptism until I read his post but here is a link to it anyway:   https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.west%20schull%20%28goleen%29.p4800.00218

I have looked for a marriage for him and Mary buit so far have not found anything in the Schull or Bantry Civil Registration area's but he could have been married anywhere as weddings usually to place in the Bride's Parish if they were still in the general area. I have not found Mary;s marriage and she may have died young. I found the death of a Mary Sullivan in ther Schull area who died aged 17 in 1877 but unfortunately there is no record copy online. I will ask a friend in the Registration Office in Skibbereen tomorrow or Tuesday if she can find any further information in the records for me on Mary,

Will get back to you when possible. Enjoy life, you're only a youg girl yet.

Stay safe & Well

Frank

Got another blank notice of a posting on this query this morning at 04.10 am Irish time.

If somebody is trying to contact me and failing to get a response from me on this Notice Board, please email me om franklfahy054@gmail.com. 

Frank Fahy

Good morning from NZ Frank. Thank-you for your birthday wishes.I did have a nice day made better as my youngest son Josh, wife and grandchildren came up from Dunedin to spend time with us. I hope your Jane had a great birthday as well. In nz the 21st of June is the shortest day. The joke on this day is that I am short in stature. I guess 60 isn't old as such but I know it sounded much better when I use to say I'm 36. Thanks for confirming Michael Sullivan. I noted that there is quite a gap between the bap of Bridget until the next bap in 1852.  Mary may have had miscarriages I think. You have been so amazing undertaking what you have for me. If I had had to pay a researcher imagine the cost. Thanks for offering to check out Mary but don't put yourself out. Oh and thank Bill for locating Michael.

As I say in my emails to my eldest son Kris (A coal miner in Australia)

Keep safe stay well and be happy lol

Kind regards as always Glenda

Hi again Frank,   Hope you are well.  I feel rather intrusive contacting you again after all you have done for me however I would like your help and advice re the following. What was/is the name of the Church that the Sullivan marriage and baptisms took place?. I thought if I could locate a photo on the internet it woud add to my Sullivan folder that I have started compiling. Also where would I contact to get a marriage certificate for Roger and Mary?. I would like to go back one more generation that's if their parents names and places of birth are entered on a certificate. I have been wondering if the Sullivans may have shifted to Kerry as Kerry was mentioned by an elderly relative. Then again they may have gone anywhere if at all. As you said you could not find a burial for Roger in Cork, just a thought. And on Jeremiahs  NZ marriage certificate it stated that Roger was a Labour so he may have gone where the work was. And would it be worthwhile having someone look on the Ireland Reaching Out site for Kerry search for a death/burial for Roger as a last attempt before putting it all to rest at the Irish end?.

As always kind regards

Glenda. 

Hi glenda

I was following you Sullivan research with interest

Is there any chance that you have your family tree on ancestry that I can access please

The similarities are very close to my family

Because I have Sullivan and McCarthy in my family history

My cousin who isn't of good health now told me our Sullivan line had McCarthy cousins

That could mean when a Sullivan married a McCarthy their children's children would be cousins ( I think that correct )

You could probably tell me ??

My email address is moonphil2649@yahoo.co.uk

I wondered if any of your Sullivan's and McCarthy's went to merthyr tydfil glamorgan Wales ??

Best wishes Phil

Hello,

I have McCarthys who went to "South Wales."  My ggf gave that as his birthplace on his marriage registry, with birth year 1859.  He was Dennis McCarthy.  I'm told his parents were Dennis and Mary Cronin.  The only census I find an appropriate-age Dennis is 1861 Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan, but the father is Jeremiah.  Young Dennis married Mary Donlin/Donlan in Pittsburgh, PA.  His siblings were Patrick, Hannah (m. Casey) and Ellen (m. Collins), and also maybe Francis and Mary Ann.  All were b. in Wales.   Anything?

Thanks!

Meg

Hi meg

Interesting

I will take a look a bit later

So 1861

Do you have a family tree please that I could access

I would be glad to give my Sullivan's but I don't know the McCarthy name only what information my cousin gave me

He said they all came over from Ireland and settled in the pennyderren district of dowlais merthyr tydfil glamorgan

Regards Phil

My email address is moonphil2649@yahoo.co.uk

Hello Glenda, I have been reading the exchanges with interest. The O'Sullivan family bought my family's Castle Warren and lands in the 1860s near Ringaskiddy, co Cork. Maybe relatives or maybe not. What I am interested in is your comment about  sending away to the Archives in NZ for a passenger/ship search. I need to find my gggrandfather's details of arrival as well. I suspect he may have gone to NZ via Australia or even from India where he worked in the bank for a couple of years. I did not realise the archives could do a search? Cou,do you give me details on how to do this please. I live in Hobart and have been in the Archives in Wellington. Thank you. Anne Warren

Try this link

https://archives.govt.nz/search-the-archive/researching/research-guides…

(copy / paste to browser)

NB:  Maintenance: Due to maintenance in our Wellington repository, you may be unable to order some records through our online finding aid, Archway, between 2 and 23 October. For further information please contact us through our ask an archivist service.

Especially the "ask an archivist".

Some of my (O')Sullivan ancestors moved to NZ (from Victoria (Aus) for work (lamb slaughter) and stayed,  since 1880.  Oldest sons of (my) Jeremiah (O')Sullivan were baptised in Cloyne Diocese, so the assumption is they were from Co. Cork. However, recent DNA-connections are indicating Killarney (Parish, RC - not Civil jurisdiction) which is in Co. Kerry..  Actually very close to the Kerry - Cork border.   The NLI's site for its Films offers good maps to show position of any Diocese, and its Parishes in relation to County Borders.   Great work from the NLI.

Also, be alert that "Darby" is a known 'nick-name' for Jeremiah,

Hope something helps

Hello Genda

I did not follow  your request as I live in North Cork and would not be familiar with West Cork but I see a mention of the diocese of Cloyne which covers North and East cork.What interested me more is the connection to the Diocese of Kerry. My o Sullivans are from the branch of the  O Sullivans Mor that occupied south Kerry for 500 years..My main reason to contact you is to tell you that all baptisms ,marriages and many deaths for the Diocese of Kerry are available free on the internet and I know that the Killarney records go back to c 1790.You will find them in irishgenealogy.ie in the church records section,The Kerry Diocese takes in a  a number of parishes in County Cork adjoining Co.Kerry. Some  Dublin Diocese parishes are also included in that section

Another Kerry site worth looking at is kerrylaburials.ie where more modern burials can be seen

Good Hunting

Done O Sullivan

Hi Done, Good to hear from you.   Thanks to  volunteers Frank and Bill Fahey and the information they sent me my Sullivan side is as follows

Roger Sullivan married Mary Carthy 9th October 1843 Area  Cork and Ross (RC) Parish/Church/Congregation  Schull West

Offspring

Bridget (Biddy) baptised 12th July 1844  (same place as her parents marriage)

Denis                baptised 2nd February 1852 (same place as his parents marriage)

Michael            baptised  11th March 1855 (same place as his parents marriage)

Jeremiah          baptised 27th December 1857 (same place as his parents marriage

Mary                baptised   15th April 1860   (same place as her parents marriage)

 I have no other information on when or where Roger and  Mary Sullivan nee Carthy died

 And no information on Bridget, Michael or Mary

There is quite a gap between Biddys birth and Denis, but no other baptisms were located. Perhaps she had miscarriages who knows one of those mysteries.

I do know that Jeremiah Sullivan and his brother Denis were living in Lyttleton Canterbury NZ by 1897 however can't locate a shipping record for them.  Jeremiah died in Lyttleton but by 1911 Denis had left Lyttleton and now I am trying to confirm where and when he died.  There are about 4 candidates but not prepared to pay $30 a certificate to find out which one is mine. 

I have noticed that ages were not always correct in records which has not helped. And family lore is not always right. A relative believed Jeremiah was born in Kerry yet on his probate record his wife stated that he was born in England. However I then ordered his marriage certificate to find out that he was born in Cork. There is the possibility that Jeremiah and Denis left Cork and were working in Kerry before coming out to NZ. I have also been trying to find out what port they would have left from and what route to NZ. Was it via Australia or England. All very interesting but frustrating and can be so expensive.

Kind regards  Glenda

Hi Done, Forgot to say thanks for the sites you mentioned. WIll have a look

Cheers  Glenda

Greetings,

I too, am searching for Sullivans, and my great, great grandmother born in County Cork, 1821 , parents unknown, as yet, travelled by herself to Melbourne , aged 16 and finally married an English convict, by name of Samuel marlowe in Melbourne aboutr 1842.   My question is why did she travel all by herself at such a young age to Melbourne, and who were her parents, and their parents , and did she have siblings.     I no nothing of this side of my family and up to six months ago I did not know she had existed.  I am now 76, and would love to  know more of my Irish past.

I do hope you can aid me in this, but understand if you can't

Thank you,   Carole Lane

Hello Carole, I can't really help however when I was looking for information on my Cork ancestors I requested a look-up on this site. If you go back to the start of my page you will see that a Frank and Bill Fahey helped me. If you have problems locating a request let  me know and I will try and sort it out for you. Now there are different reasons why people immigrated on their own at a young age. One was  for better opportunities in life. I have an ancestor who left Ireland for Australia at a young age. The other option is to to start your research in Australia by finding your ancestors marriage certificate. Find the birth death marriages site for Melbourne and request a certificate. You have the names so it should not be a problem.

Kind regards  Glenda

Hi Carole,

The firs t thing that i would need to know is the first name of your G,G, Grandsmother. There are of thousands of Sullivans in County Cork generally recorded from the early 1800s to the present day. if you are fairly sure of her year of birth and had her first name, there is a reasonable chance of finding her details but without either there is none.

In the years 1820 to 1822 there were at least 5337 baptisms of sullivan children of both sexes and this is not counting all of the parishes or Diocese as they were not recorded on the site i  got these figures from. In the Diocese of Cork & Ross alone, there were 3,309 children baptised so you can get some idea of the enormity of the problem without a name.

Sorry to be so pessimistic about it but these are the facts.

Let me know what you have and I will try to help.

Frank Faju

Carole

Noted your request above and as a quick response to your question re young girl on her own the British government organised large groups of young girls to be sent to Australia as women there were in such short supply..Many were orphans or were involved in petty crime or had been taken into care. Some with criminal records were taken into care or imprisoned,most ended up as domestic servants and  were generally farmed out to English settlers. . Many of these girls were taken from workhouses in Ireland and would have been orphaned due to the Gret famine in the 1940's.later, many  married released irish convicts who were deported from Ireland. A search of Irish immigration of girls could lead you possible explanation, These emigrations were well recorded .Well worth a search Regards

Donie

Dear Carole:

Your query to our office was passed to me and I see that Frank has asked for additional information.  I would suggest that you post whatever information you have and I will also send the email sent to the office to Frank so that he can see what else he may be able to find.

Many thanks for your interest in Ireland Reaching Out.

Kind regards,

Jane

Hi Carole,

as Jane outlined above, I am responding on behalf of  Ireland XO and would ask you to respond to my request as soon as possible as I am quite busy and may miss your response if it is delayed too long.

The information from Donie above is quite irrevelant in the caser of your GG Grandmother as the " assisted migration" under the Earl Grey Scheme of the young girls he mentioned were operated from 1849 t0 1853 when your GG Grandmother would have been 28 years old at the beginning and 32  years old at the end. These girls were all between 14 at youngest and 18 at oldest.

Looking forward to hearing from you again soon.

Frank Fahy

Hello Carole,

I'm in Australia and I will enjoy helping you.  I've read through the responses to your original posting and support wholeheartedly the general statements of the D. (Donie ?)  (O')SULLIVAN.  The workhouses, the selection processes for the healthy ones, sent by sea to serve in colonies noted for the scarcity of females, are all well documented.  I could report on 2 sisters from Ballyvaughan, and contrast their separate lives, suffering and fortune/misfortune. One married an Irish 'convict', the other was sent as housekeeper/maid to an English 'settler'. 

Yes, it has been my observation that young Irish women arrived in Australia and married Irish or English (generic UK) convicts or non-convicts.  Recent "Online records highlight Australia's convict past:", ABC 2007 reports that "English" convicts dominated the mix of nationalities transported to Australia, comprising 70% of transportees.  Obviously, a 'convict' husband being Englsih is to be expected as there were far more English convicts than any other nationality, landing on foreign soil, aka Australia, excepting South Australia, which was not a penal settlement.  The plight of the Irish, saw many a fair 'Sheila' emigrate and marry a non-Irish man in South Australia and also penal settlements.

Now, to the information you posted: " Samuel marlowe in Melbourne about 1842". Do twins run in your family?

I could not find a "Marlowe" , but there are birth and marriage records connecting a Samuel Marlow and Mary Ann Sullivan. This pair married in 1847,  Vic. BDM #5110, and births of 5 daughters or which 2 pairs have sequential Registration Numbers suggesting twins. 

The Argus newspaper reported in 1886 the death of Mary Marlow, wife of the late Samuel Marlow, and her residence as Litttle Bourke St, Melbourne..  see https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11571776 The Death record for Mary Marlow, age 65 years is Vic BDM #1024  

Another https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196009953 implies she was aged 12 years on arrival.  Caution, ages are elastic and the 'press' are not guaranteed to be accurate either!

Knowing that Mary Marlow died a widow indicates Mr Marlow pre-deceased her. There is a Victorian 1882 Death record which is likely him, being the only Samuel Marlow in Victoria to fit the criteria; Vic BDM #2645. The "Weekly Times", a Melbourne publication reports grant of Probate in 1882 for Samuel Marlow  ( https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/221749292)   Wills and Probate documents are / should be available from PRO Vic. - often free online.   If not, this document would / should hold more information worth knowing.

The newspaper report 'a colonist of 50 years' ties in with arriving at age 16 years.  Similarly another newspaper item https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5863146  re death of a Mr Henry Lane from his father-in-law's house suggests one of the daughters married Henry Lane, and informs that Samuel Marlow lived in Manchester Lane, off Little Bourke street west, near Queen street.  Now you have a location, there may be old photos in a library or history department of a university, or a council records.

There is also Grant of Probate and Administration, September 1886, for Mary Marlow leaving Pounds 525. Worth acquiring the original See: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11573806

I could not easily locate the names of the ships bringing them to Australia.  Recall that Victoria was actually part of New South Wales, until the separation of state in 1850, which took some years to process.  I'd like to know when and how Marlow and Sullivan arrived in Australia. 

If you'd like more assistance, more than happy to roll up my sleeves.

Hi, Frank, Bill or whoever is available or able to help with the following request for an elderly lady who lives in  the same town as I do. 

Her  ancestor is a Margaret Copley who married in Australia in 1842. She ordered her marriage certificate but there was no entry for her Parents names or where and when she was born in Ireland.

However a friend of this woman had a months subscription on Ancestry.Com and located the following which cannot be substantiated. The information her friend located was not sourced which is often the case with family trees on these sites.

Anyway this is the information that was located be it right or wrong. A Margaret Copley was  born  10th January 1821 Schull, Cork. Margarets Fathers (have no first name) was born in 1782 Ballyhea Cork, married 1814 Cork (don't know who to), and died in 1833 Charlesville Cork.  There is the possibility that Margaret had a Sister named Mary Ann Copley as entered as a Sponsor on Margarets marriage cert was the name Mary Ann Copley. 

Any help greatly appreciated

Kind regards  Glenda

Hello Glenda,

In New South Wales, Australia there were no Marriage Certificates, per se, until Civil Registration commenced 1 March 1856.

Prior to that marriage records were maintained by the church; and records may not be complete.  Do you know the surname of the groom? And which denomination? 

The information recorded by each church will vary. Knowing the church location and denomination will help tracing newspaper reports, electoral, land ownership, burial and obituary records.

A search of Australian and NZ records does not find a (Miss) Mary Ann Copley, still a "Miss" and an adult in 1842.  There are a few, but not born early enough to be a "Sponsor".    

Could you obtain this 1842 Marriage Certificate and upload?

The Irish Parish Register Baptisms & Confirmations, Ffolliott Collection, provides: " 1821 Feb 20 pbt COPLEY Mary dau. of William" with transcribed reference to "Parish: Ballyhay, Diocese: Cloyne, County Cork".    Search on NLI indicates this 1821 date is covered by NLI film # 04999 / 05.  

Ballyhea | Microfilm 04999 / 05

The useful NLI map and parish search feature  shows clearly that adjoining Parishes to the North are Shandrum, and to the North East is Charleville.  NB. Not "Charlesville", of which several are in USA.

If I am not mistaken, this northern region of County Cork comes under the expertise of Donie (O')Sullivan at XO.

Hope this helps,

Daniel M.

Hi Daniel, I will locate the certificate and get back to you tomorrow. Thanks for replying and the information you sent.

Kind regards   Glenda

Hi Daniel, The lady who has the marriage certificate for Margaret and William Cornish nee Copley is away at the moment  however I wrote down the details when I first viewed it which are as follows

The marriage certificate came from the Registra of Birth Deaths Marriages Australia. The initial record was located on the free Birth Death Marriage site NSW. Seems it may have come under a Church record as civil registraion as you said was not until 1856. Anyway on the certificate Margaret Copley married William Cornish 4th October 1842 Mount York  NSW. The only other information given on the certificate  was that William was a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland. And Mary Ann Copley was a witness. So not much to go on.  I have searched for William and Margarets deaths/burials  but nothing concrete worth spending money on getting certificates. Checked out the newspapers on the National Library of Australia site but again nothing. I could get this lady to order a marriage certificate for Mary Ann Copley as I have some leads on her but as yet can't substantiate that she is indeed Margaret Cornish Copleys Sister. And of course Australia records often don't list parents names.

I did locate the following. Bounty Immigrants to NSW. Copley Margaret, Age 18, Year 1841, Ship Comet, Native Place Charlesville Cork, Occupation Domestic Servant, NOTES Protection of John Cotter and his Wife Charlotte. John from Danbetry Cork, Farm Servant, Roman Catholic. Age 26. This record may be a stab in the dark but I thought worthwhile considering. 

I also located a baptism for Mary Ann Copley 10th January 1821 Schull Cork. And a Margaret in Charlesville but her baptism age was 1833 so too late unless there was a  mistake made on the record. Look any help much appreciated but understand it may be in the too hard basket. 

Kind regards  Glenda

P.S If you read this posting Bill or Frank (Fahy) hello to you both and thanks again for what you located on my Sullivans. Shame no marriage etc for Bridget, Michael or Mary but that's the way it goes. I certainly have more than I ever expected.

Daniel M.

Donie O Sullivan replying to your query above,I volunteered to help out with any requests pertaining to my own parish of Kilshannig and adjacent parishes that i would be familiar with.I live in North Cork and know the Ballyhea are even though it is 20 miles away. If no body else will follow up your request  I will have a go,I am more interested in local history but spent many years compiling my family trees and learned the hard way..I do voluntary work in  researching requests that are received by the local parish.office also..

Regards

Donie

Hi Donie, Thanks for your reply. The lady for whom this request is  for has now subscribed to Ancestry. If I had known this was going to happen I would not have contacted Ireland Reaching Out.  Rather embarassing. Anyway while I am on line I may as well tell you that I searched Ireland Select Births Deaths and Marriages on her computer with Ancestry and located the following.

Margaret Copley, Father William, Bap 8th June 1823 Ballyhay/hea Cork Ireland

Mary Copley Father William, Bap 20th February 1821 Ballyhay/hea Cork Ireland

William Copley, Father William, Bap 18th March 1817, Ballyhay/hea Cork Ireland

Ellinor Copley, Father William Bap 23rd October 1818 Ballyhay/hea Cork Ireland

No other information forthcoming. The reason why this lady requested my help is because my married name is Cornish and her Margaret Copley married a William Cornish as you will have noted above. Wish it was that simple lol.

Kind regards  Glenda

Hi, Glenda back again. To date  no information for a marriage for Bridget(Biddy) Sullivan or Mary Sullivan Parents Roger and Mary Carthy. However wondering if anyone can locate a marriage for Michael Sullivan. 

Cheers

Glenda

Hi Glenda,

I too have (O')Sullivan from Co. Cork, and thousands upon thousands of people share that privilege.  In fact, a 3rd-Sullivan cousine of mine is blessed with an (O')Sullivan on her paternal side as well.  I've never thought to ask any of the good people at XO to do my groundwork for me.

You ask for a marriage of Michael Sullivan.  How many answers do you want?  If you know some parameters: religion, date, location/townland, approximate age of said Michael then roll up your sleeves and give research a go. 

The benefits of 1st-hand research is the learning you do - about the region, placenames and who lived nearby.  If someone gives you a Marriage Date and Bride's name, you have the? (an) answer, but no other benefit to your knowledge and understanding.

If you would like some pointers on searching methods, then I'm sure that many who frequent XO will be pleased to share their How-To-Research secrets.

Hi Brownlow, I have  been thinking about what you posted hence the delay in responding to your post until now. Very good you haven't had to ask the volunteers on Ireland Reachng out for help however the site is there to help people or it wouldn't exist at all. And obviously for some reason you have an interest in this site ie (Sullivans) or you would not be checking it. I realise I have bombarded this site for information. As for Michael I didn't make it clear however if you read above you will see that Bill Fahey gave me Michaels birth/baptism date so then I wondered who he married. This aside you are right it does pay to find out the records available in Ireland and the  the geography which I have been doing and should have done more thoroughly before.I have however looked at records on Family Search, online records and Ancestry.Com. I could follow many leads but how much do  you pay for records that cannot be substantiated or confirmed. From NZ where I live where towns etc are all so different to Ireland and England it  is very confusing especialy when researching back in the past.

Kind regards   Glenda

Hello Madigan, Frank and Glenda,

I only just read the emails, silly me I didn't go down far enough.  I am thanking you all for your help and guidance re my great, great grandmother Mary Ann Marlow, nee Sullivan.

My great, great grandmother took a journey from Cork to Melbourne, then known as NSW by herself.  That is the starting point, and later married an English convict by name of Samuel Llelwyn Marlow.  Apparently he and two others were convicted of robbing the Mint in the UK and were sent to Tasmania to Port Arthur where he spent 13 years there.  But he was always a good boy there.   I believe that my great great grandmother had her first child out of wedlock and they were finally married in 1847.  Five children are recorded but only two lived toadult hood.  One married Henry Lane, now he was a character too and I do have stories about him.........

You would be surprised the stories that were handed down, including having descended from Lord Lonsdale, and there was no mention of convicts in the family or unwed great, great grandmothers. Also that we had a lot of money in the Mint., Well, that obviously came from the fact that Great Great grandfather had robbed it............... All this going back  has changed the way I now look at life.     I would like to know where they were both buried, so when next in Melbourne, I could visit the graves if they still exist.   There is no one left to talk about my past, everyone is dead and I am 77 but I love delving back and knowing something of my background.  I never knew I had Irish at all in my blood line,

I am still, uncertain the exact reason why she came here,but I was given many good reasons, but as I am on roll, I would love to know, who here parents were, and did she had siblings, aunties and uncles etc.     I was asked if there was anything else too that would interest me.  I can give you a photo of My great,great grandfather as it hangs in the old museum, and he is listed as being an early settler in the State.  He was good at business and ended up quite wealthy.  I have found who were his parents, but nothing else.  I cannot go further back that.  

Hello Madigan, Frank and Glenda,

I only just read the emails, silly me I didn't go down far enough.  I am thanking you all for your help and guidance re my great, great grandmother Mary Ann Marlow, nee Sullivan.

My great, great grandmother took a journey from Cork to Melbourne, then known as NSW by herself.  That is the starting point, and later married an English convict by name of Samuel Llelwyn Marlow.  Apparently he and two others were convicted of robbing the Mint in the UK and were sent to Tasmania to Port Arthur where he spent 13 years there.  But he was always a good boy there.   I believe that my great great grandmother had her first child out of wedlock and they were finally married in 1847.  Five children are recorded but only two lived toadult hood.  One married Henry Lane, now he was a character too and I do have stories about him.........

You would be surprised the stories that were handed down, including having descended from Lord Lonsdale, and there was no mention of convicts in the family or unwed great, great grandmothers. Also that we had a lot of money in the Mint., Well, that obviously came from the fact that Great Great grandfather had robbed it............... All this going back  has changed the way I now look at life.     I would like to know where they were both buried, so when next in Melbourne, I could visit the graves if they still exist.   There is no one left to talk about my past, everyone is dead and I am 77 but I love delving back and knowing something of my background.  I never knew I had Irish at all in my blood line,

I am still, uncertain the exact reason why she came here,but I was given many good reasons, but as I am on roll, I would love to know, who here parents were, and did she had siblings, aunties and uncles etc.     I was asked if there was anything else too that would interest me.  I can give you a photo of My great,great grandfather as it hangs in the old museum, and he is listed as being an early settler in the State.  He was good at business and ended up quite wealthy.  I have found who were his parents, but nothing else.  I cannot go further back that.  

This message (4 Mar 2021) addresses some 'myths' or 'generally assumed  FACTS'  that appear in this thread to date:

1.  Age of 'the famine girls' were sent to Australia. 

One such scheme was known as the Earl Grey Scheme. "These girls were all between 14 at youngest and 18 at oldest", contributed on Friday 23rd October 2020, is false information and should be formally corrected in the interest of Irish diaspora seeking their ancestral origin(s).

Attached is just page of the passengers list for the 1851 voyage of the Earl Grey .  

NB. The mean age of 8 females on this page is 20 years, the median is 19.5 years, and the range is 16 to 26 years.

2.  Irish convicts, criminals and British/English settlers.

Physical and sexual abuse of Irish 'convicts' by British/English settlers in Australia was not uncommon.

Points below are general in nature, and based on the political climate in 19th Century.

(a) Not all people (natives of Ireland) sentenced under British law over the period 1800 - 1850 had committed offences against their kinsmen.  The 'judicial system' at the time was at the discretion of the ruling English government, and deployable as a means of suppressing Irish independence and thwarting uprisings.

In one case, that I know well, a 15 year old Irish lad from Armagh received a sentence of 10 years transportation for burglary. In reading the full account of the trial for "burglary", it was clear that no burglary was committed. In fact, in the hearing this lad advised the Judge that illegal card-playing was occurring at the venue (hotel) and politely urged that action should be taken. After sentencing, the Judge invited all 'criminals' to respond. While others issued gutteral swearing (?), this lad replied: 'Thank you, your Honour, I am greatly pleased'

In reading further events in Armagh and surrounding lands, I noted that (independence) uprisings had been increasing, and the sale of gunpowder limited, with registration through the Magistrate's Court required for purchases above a very small amount, say half an ounce.  Thus a list of purchasers of gunpowder was recorded and is available for today's researchers. One name listed was the same as the father of this 15 year old lad, who handled himself with dignity and maturity.

In following this lad in Australia, I found he was soon awarded a Conditional Pardon (CP) and conducted himself in a way that would have made his parents and extended family very proud.   My understanding that a CP meant 'freedom subject to immediate incarceration should any offence be committed', was recently corrected by an archivist at NSW State Records.

A Conditional Pardon meant that the 'convict' was now a free-person at liberty to move around and go wherever he wanted.  So what was the 'Condition'?   The condition was that he not return to Ireland.

3.  Literacy of the Irish people.

Too often it is stated: 'Well of course, none of them could read or write',  without any thought or shred of evidence.  Below are my research notes taken from 'Official Records':  newspapers, shipping lists, court records and so on, confirmed that in 1840, both convicted 15 year olds could read.

Education and scholarship has a long history within Ireland. The Hedge School system testifies that. The accounts of the Grants of Newry, a family of School Teachers over 150 years testifies the advanced level of mathematics taught by the Grant family.  There exists literature that establishes the Irish curriculum, banned under English rule, was far superior to the National Schools later introduced. 

Research notes:

In 1840, Michael (age 48 yrs), Francis (age 15 yrs) and William (age 15 yrs) were tried at Down, and sentenced to transportation for 7, 10 and 7 year respectively. Their heights were 5'1 3/4" , 5' 1" and 4' 11 1/2" resp. Dates of trials were 9Jan1840 and 2Mar1840 for the boys. Michael was married (1 son, 1 daughter). The son was William Hanlon (on Pekoe). The offences were 'receive stolen fowls', 'burglary'and 'shoplifting', respectively.
Michael could neither read nor write. Francis could read, and William both read and write. The Pekoe arrived NSW 6 August 1840. The native places recorded as Armagh for both Michael and Francis, and Down for William. The 2 boys were single, and had no offspring listed. Michael was listed as a Laborer (sic) and the young ones as 'errand boys'.

P.S.

I can upload if asked:

An account of the Grants of Newry over 150 years of teaching, by J. Fitzsimons, 1947, 10 pages.

A 2006 doctoral thesis, by Fernandez Suarez (in Spanish) on the Irish Hedge schools, 415 pages.

Hoping this post benefits all who read it.

Regarding Dennis McCarthy I have ggranfather Daniel McCarthy b 1870. His brother Dennis b 1859. Father Dennis McCarthy b 1818 m Mary Ryan b 1829. On living dna keep getting matches in Wales ? Could this be any connections here ?

Hello, Sharon,

My ggf was a Dennis McCarthy born in Wales in 1859.  I don't know of a brother Daniel, though.  The family seem to have come to Pittsburgh, PA, USA separately in the 1870s.  Have you any further info?  There is a McCarthy family on a passenger list with a Daniel and Catherine in 1874.  The other names are the same as my Dennis's siblings, but the ages are off-- by as much as 8 years in one case.  Where did your Daniel end up?  Are you on ancestry?  

Meg

Daniel ended up in hastings england  have Hannah also called.honora 1857, Norah 1858 Daniel 1870  Dennis 1859 Ellen 1861 and Elizabeth 1868 don't know anything about siblings than that. I know more about Daniel as he my great grandad. Am on living dna

Considering they all had big families and their dad b 1818 im wondering if there were siblings inbetween or before ?

Hi, Sharon,

My great-grandfather Dennis (1859) had siblings Patrick (1864), Hannah (1865), and Ellen (1863).  All years approximate as ages/birth year reporting varies among documents.  My guess would be that your Daniel's father and my Dennis's father were first cousins, named for their grandfather.  Though the birth years are close enough that you could be right about their being siblings.  Do you know whether your Dennis, Hannah and Ellen came to the US?

Where was your Daniel born?  All I have is Wales for the siblings and South Wales for Dennis.  Do you know where in Ireland Daniel's parents were from?  Did they marry in Ireland or Wales?

I don't know where they went or where they settled ? Dennis b 1818 from cork Mary Ryan from lymerick. Have them living at Hastings square when Daniel ten years. With two other siblings. This is my quest to find where they went?