Dickson/Dixon family, Mullafernaghan and [Kilsorrel?]

David Dickson’s death certificate records that he was 76 when he died, so born c 1811. The family appear to have been Presbyterian. Magherally’s baptism records only start in 1837, so you won’t find David’s baptism record or his parents names from that source.

Regarding his wife’s name, the baptism records cover 1837-1857 and 1860 – 1877, so if the children were born during those years, the mother’s name may well be recorded in the church records.

I saw 3 possible deaths, in the Banbridge Registration area, that could be David’s wife. Eliza 1890, aged 75, Anne, 1890 aged 84 & Sarah 1889 aged 82. You might want to look those 3 up to see if one is the right one. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so that may not have been Magherally Presbyterian, but if it was, their marriage records only start in 1845, and so if David & his wife married before that (as seems possible) there won’t be a record.

The Revaluation records show the Mullafernaghan farm staying in David’s name till 1897 when it changed to Oliver McGuggan. This appears to be that family in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Magherally/Mullafernaghan/1203835/

The name change around 1897 suggests David’s wife had died by that time. Note that a James McGuiggan of Ballycross was an executor to David’s will, so possibly there’s a connection with the family that took the farm over in 1901.

The other executor was Hugh Dickson of Kilsorrell. This may be his family in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Quilly/Killysorrel__part_/1206884/

Also in the same townland is this Dawson family with a Dickson nephew staying there:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Quilly/Killysorrell__part_/1206754/

Archibald Dickson married Martha Dawson on 27.8.1889. So I suspect that John Dawson may be Martha’s brother.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton/Ballymoney_Street/960483/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Woodvale/Mountjoy_Street/179665/

Archibald seems to have been an insurance collector, not a Minister. I suspect he was possibly a lay preacher? (He ‘s not dressed like a Minister in the photo). James & Martha had a son James born 15.5.1890 at Kilsorrel. The father’s occupation on that birth certificate is “missionary” so that suggests he was a lay preacher/missionary rather than an ordained Minister of Religion.  His work as an insurance collector was therefore presumably how he fed his family.

Oh my goodness ... this is wonderful. What a marvelous St. Patrick's Day I am having. :)

Thank you so very much!!

I have done the math and his wife must have been Eliza. I am so thrilled to have this information! Thank you so much for your help!! We had an old note from a cousin who tried to research our Irish connections decades ago on a brief trip to Ireland, and her note indicated Sarah with a possible maiden name of Potts -- so she may have seen the record you saw, or perhaps something else about the other Sarah Dickson -- but without having all the names and birthdates of the children in front of her at the time, I think her note must be incorrect. David Dickson's first child was born in 1837, when Eliza would have been 22, and their last child was born 1861, when she was 45 or 46. (We do have a history of late babies in my family -- my own mother was 45 when I was born.) Sarah or Anne, your other possibilities for David's wife, would have been far too old. Another clue is that their third daughter was named Eliza. That's right, isn't it? 3rd daughter should be named after the mother! :)

The other executor was Hugh Dickson of Kilsorrell. This may be his family in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Quilly/Killysorrel__part_/1206884/

Another record I did not have! So again I am in your debt! This is actually Mary Eliza McDowell Dickson and her brood. How terrible to be widowed so young, with five children. She is/was David and Eliza Dickson's daughter-in-law, having married their youngest son, William Martin Dickson (1861-1897). 

Hugh is a bit of a puzzle. I have a marriage record for him - he married Ellen Forsyth in County Down - then the record, I think, gets muddled with another Hugh Dickson who married an Ellen Forsyth in Scotland. I'm still trying to sort that out, as to whether it is really the same person and they moved to Scotland for some reason. I don't think so but I can't prove it yet.

Diane,

I note you say you have done the math and the wife must be Eliza. I’d be inclined to verify that by looking at the death certificate. The place of death and perhaps the informant should tell you whether you have the right one.

If David Dickson’s first child was born in 1837 then you are looking for a marriage around 1836. So, based on the lack of early records in the churches in the area, there’s a fair chance that the record doesn't exist. Marriage records pre 1845 don’t usually contain much information anyway eg no parents names, so even if you found it, it might not tell you very much beyond the date.

There’s a Hugh Dickson marriage on 27.2.1869 to Ellen Forsythe. Registered Banbridge. The father’s name, occupation and the townland may help you decide whether it’s a member of your family. You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

I can only see one child to that couple. That was Mary Dickson born Reilly St, Banbridge on 19.9.1870. Father’s occupation was Mill Worker. There could be many reasons why the couple had no further children, but one might be that they left Ireland soon after 1870.  You might want to compare the information with the couple you have found in Scotland to see if it’s the same one.

Thousands of people moved from Ireland to Scotland in the 1800s as the employment prospects there were much greater, so it wouldn’t be too surprising if this couple were amongst them.

In answer to your query re naming patterns, there was a tradition in Scotland and Ireland of naming children according to the following rules:

The 1st son was usually named after the father's father

  The 2nd son was usually named after the mother's father

   The 3rd son was usually named after the father

    The 4th son was usually named after the father's eldest brother

     The 5th son was usually named after the mother's eldest brother

 The 1st daughter was usually named after the mother's mother

  The 2nd daughter was usually named after the father's mother

   The 3rd daughter was usually named after the mother

    The 4th daughter was usually named after the mother's eldest sister

     The 5th daughter was usually named after the father's eldest sister

The problem with relying too heavily on naming patterns is that, apart from the fact that not all families followed it, there are lots of things that can upset it. Common ones that I have encountered are: 

1. when the father and either of the grandparents have the same name. So you obviously can’t really have two or even three sons all with the same name, so a different name is usually needed though some families did actually use the same name again on the birth certificate, but differentiated with another more informal name for day to day use. So if you had two Georges (as per birth certs) you just called one of them something else eg Simon;
2. if a child dies young, then it was common practice to re-use the name for the next birth. And if you don’t know about the death, your analysis of who they were named after could be completely wrong;
3. Or if a close relative had just died and their name was used out of respect.
4. I have also noticed that many families liked to name the odd child after the local Minister/Priest, schoolteacher or a relative with no children of their own.
5. Sometimes people were christened with one name, but went by a different one (and would appear in censuses and other records by that alternative name), eg Henry & Harry or Ann & Nancy.

So for all these reasons, whilst tradition says, for example, that the 4th son was named after the father's eldest brother, it isn’t always so.

Elwyn, thank you very much! I had not come across the birth record for Hugh's daughter Mary. Hugh and Ellen started producing children in Scotland in 1873 -- if it is indeed the same couple.  It's good to learn the reasons why a couple might move to Scotland -- I had assumed he was farming at or near Mullafernaghan, but employment as a mill worker was doubtless a fairly unpleasant way to make a living. There were tons of Dicksons in the town where he moved (if, indeed, it is he) so it's possible he had cousins to hook up with once he arrived. I'm not sure how long the Dicksons had actually been in Ireland -- it seems likely they came to County Down from Scotland as many did. If the folks in Renfrewshire are "my" Hugh and Ellen, he was working as a jeweller by 1875.

The Dickson name, denomination and location (ie Co Down) make it highly likely they originated in Scotland.  The major migrations of Scots were in the 1600s. Firstly, as a part of the Hamilton & Montgomery Planation c 1606 but also later in the 1690s due to severe famine in Scotland. Some estimates say that 100,000 Scots settled in Ireland in the 1600s (representing 10% of the entire Scottish population).  Looking at the Muster Rolls for Co Down c 1630 there are dozens of Dixon/Dickson households there at that time. So they were well established there by then.

You are obviously curious as to why they went to Scotland in the 1800s. One of Ireland’s problems is a lack of natural resources. No coal, oil, iron ore etc, and so apart from a modest amount of shipbuilding in Belfast and the Belfast linen mills (which mostly only employed women), it did not really get the industrial revolution that benefited England and Scotland where mills, steelworks, ship building, coal mining and all their support industries were major employers creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs. Much better paid than subsistence farming or weaving. Added to that you had the effects of a massive population explosion in Ireland – up from 3 million in 1750 to 8 million in 1841 (no-one is really sure of the reasons why but reduced neo-natal deaths seem to be a factor) and the famine. So some push factors and some pull factors saw huge numbers of people leave Ireland. Something like 2 million people emigrated from Ireland in the 1800s.

If you look at the Scottish censuses for the Glasgow area in the late 1800s, you will see that about every fifth person recorded there was born in Ireland. Scotland was a particularly popular place to go to work because it was easy and very cheap to get to. Several sailings every day from Belfast, plus regular sailings from other ports too. The shipping companies main business was cargo and the passengers were just top-up revenue. Competition was fierce and passenger fares very low. People working in Scotland could come home for weddings or the harvest, as well as holidays (Glasgow used to shut down for 2 weeks every July, known as the Glasgow Fair holiday and there would then be a huge exodus to Ireland).  You could also send children back to stay with their grandparents, thereby leaving the wife free to work. You couldn’t do all those things so easily from Australia, America or Canada.  For Presbyterians, Scotland also had the benefit of being culturally very close as well as geographically very close. Something that persists to this day, in religion, music eg piping, sport etc. The experience and welcome offered to a Presbyterian from Ireland was generally much better than that given to a Roman Catholic. For further background on Irish migration to Scotland, see this link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/zr6ycdm/revision/2

So very helpful and interesting, Elwyn. Thank you. 

Hello

My clients Great x 3 Grandfather was William Martin Brown of Mullafernaghan Townland.

The father was William was David however, I know his mother was Mary Eliza Urey and in the 1901 census she is listed as being born in Kentucky (well that is how it has been transcribed online).  The surname Urey is quite odd so I was assuming that it was actually Wrey/Wray however, Diane you have it as McDowell?  Was Mary actually born in the USA or has the transcriber got it wrong?

I also cannot find a birth record for William and Mary's eldest child Eliza Jane born shortly after their marriage in 1890 (Magherally Presbyterian Church, Banbridge, Down, Northern Ireland)

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Quilly/Killysorre…

Any help would be appreciated.

Hi Diane

I note that it's nearly 4 years since your first post so I hope that you get this as I'm sure you'll find it quite interesting!

The Dickson family were from a place called Dickson's Hill in Ballygorian More near Hilltown about 15 miles south of Mullafernaghan. There were 6 siblings - David, Archibald, Ruth, Jane, Ashley and one other - but I have no record of their parents. David married Eliza Potts and went to live in Mullafernaghan where they had 12 children.

Son Archibald (or Archie as he was known) was a Baptist clergyman and, at different times, a missionary and an insurance agent, as mentioned in the post, but also a van man or van driver. He married Martha Dawson from Edenordinary and they went to live in Belfast where they lived at numerous addresses. Their eldest son David (born James!) is the one staying with Martha's parents, John and Ann Dawson, in the 1901 census. I believe he stayed with them for a few years. I attach a photo from around 1905 showing John & Ann at the front with their son William and daughter Annie, who both married late, and David Dickson on the right. The Dawsons had resided in Edenordinary, close to Mullafernaghan but moved to Killysorrell in the 1880's after most of their children had followed Martha to Belfast.

This is where it gets complicated. Ruth Dickson, another of the 6 siblings at the top, married Francis Urey from Ardbrin and they had a son called James, who married his cousin Eliza Dickson, David and Eliza's daughter. James and Eliza had an adopted daughter, Mary Eliza McDowell, who married her mother's brother William Martin Dickson. Make sense?

Another of the 6 siblings, Jane, who had remained in Ballygorian, married George Lindsay of Drumnascamph, just south-east of Rathfriland. They were my great-great-great-grandparents. Their granddaughter, Mary Lindsay, married John McCready, also of Drumnascamph. They had a daughter Sarah Agnes who, when she went to work as a vestmaker in Belfast, lodged with her relative Archie Dickson and his wife Martha, where she met Martha's brother George Dawson and they married in 1902. They were my grandparents.

I hope you get this. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

I am going over ALL this information with a fine-toothed comb! LOL! Many thanks, Cousin Pete. ;)

I am over the moon about the photograph. Thank you, thank you. The David Dickson in the photograph is my first cousin twice removed, born 1890, so he'd be about 15 here.

"David married Eliza Potts and went to live in Mullafernaghan where they had 12 children." -- I *did* have a scribbled note from years ago next to his name: "Potts?" -- someone in my family years ago had written it. I never had "Eliza," just "Potts" with a question mark. I then came across the attached record and decided it must have been Jane Rogers instead. May I ask where your information about Eliza Potts came from?

Also I have only found 10 children of theirs, one of whom (Esther Dickson Steele) is my great-grandmother. There are two more? And the only siblings of David Dickson that I found were William and Archibald. This is all very exciting.

"There were 6 siblings - David, Archibald, Ruth, Jane, Ashley and one other - " -- Could it be William, an R.N. born 1795? I had him plugged in as the sibs' father, but he couldn't be, because Ruth was born when he was 10 years old. I did have Ruth on my tree and the Ureys -- but I didn't know she was David's sister, so that's very exciting to learn. 

Oh my goodness, I just saw the post from Killultagh dated 2018. I am so sorry. Can't imagine how that got past me! 

Yes, the name was Urey, and Mr. Dawson addressed some of it in his post ... it is indeed confusing.

The Ureys did emigrate, so a birth in Kentucky may very well be right, although I have it as Pennsylvania. Francis Urey m. Ruth Dickson and they left Co. Down and founded Urey, Pennsylvania in the first half of the 19th century. Their son James either did not go with them or returned to Ireland... he married his mother's niece, his first cousin Elizabeth (Eliza) Dickson. They adopted a daughter from Pennsylvania, Mary Eliza McDowell, who married her adopted mother's youngest brother, William Martin Dickson. She may very well be named in her marriage record as Mary Eliza Urey, since the Ureys adopted her.

My apologies for not answering sooner.

Hi Diane

Glad the info's been some help to you.

Regarding Eliza Potts, I also was given the name 'Potts' (without a first name) for David Dickson's wife by family members in Ireland about 50 years ago. I have very high confidence that they would have got the name right. I honestly can't recall where I picked up 'Eliza' but I would have found it somewhere on the internet. Sadly, I have no confirmatory evidence. The David Dickson who married Jane Rogers can't be our's as he's from Magheralin out past Lurgan and our David is definitely from Ballygorian near Hilltown.

The extra two children for David and ELiza were again provided by family members. David, I believe, emigrated to Australia. Mary married somebody called Sloane (again no first name).

Sorry, I don't have any more info on the 6th sibling.

I believe the Ureys emigrated around 1843, when son James would have been about 8 years old. I know James returned and farmed in Killysorrell but have no more info about the adopted daughter.

It seems to me that the Maxwell family from this area is related to the Dickson family.  My father and I visited Ireland in 1970 and it seems to me that he visited a friend or family of that area.  Does this ring any bells?  My grandfather was James Maxwell and his father was David Maxwell.

"The David Dickson who married Jane Rogers can't be ours as he's from Magheralin out past Lurgan and our David is definitely from Ballygorian near Hilltown." Ah, you have the lovely advantage of local information! Thanks for that!

I am ditching Jane Rogers and replacing her with Eliza Potts. Now that I have a sounder hypothesis from which to "spring forth," I am hopeful that evidence will emerge. I am combining your (and my) hazy old family note of "Potts" with Elwyn's information from above, which had "Eliza" but no maiden name. 

As for the Maxwells, I do not find that name on my tree but I haven't gotten very far with this branch of my family.

The children I have found for David Dickson and Eliza Potts (mostly culled from his Will) are Jane (b. 1836), Martha (b. 1839), Esther (my g-grandmother, b. 1840), Elizabeth/Eliza (b. 1841), Hugh (b. 1844), John (b. 1845), Rachel (b. 1852), Agnes (b. 1854), William Martin (b. 1861 -- married the McDowell/Urey girl). I shall add David and Mary based on your information. Do you know when they were born? Possibly between John and Rachel?

In case you are interested and don't have it, I'm attaching an image of my great-grandmother, Esther Dickson Steele. It's a chalk portrait done in San Francisco circa 1905. 

Hi Diane

You've missed Archibald off your list.

I think the ones we can be certain about, because they're in the will and on both our lists are Jane, Martha, Esther, John, Rachel, Agnes, Archibald and William.

There are some anomalies though -

Eliza(beth) doesn't appear in the will. I believe she died in 1899 so we would expect her to be there. However, the father does leave differing amounts to all his children so she may have just been left nothing!

Hugh only appears in the will as an executor, not a beneficiary. Also, he wasn't on the list of children that I was given by family 50 years ago. So there is some uncertainty over him.

David is the one that my family told me went to Australia. He is a beneficiary in the will (2/6) but it's interesting the way it says 'if called upon within 5 years after my wife's decease'. I'm not sure what that means. Maybe relating to him being on the other side of the world?

Mary was on my family list but doesn't appear in the will. So again some uncertainty.

Without birth records it's impossible to be 100% sure about any of this!

Finally, I don't have birth dates for David or Mary.

Thanks for the photos.

Can't believe I forgot about Uncle Archie. LOL

It's interesting that your notes have David Dickson going to Australia. Mine have him precedeceasing his father, which of course cannot be since he is mentioned in the Will. There is a David Dickson whose death in 1874 is registered in Banbridge, and I assumed it was this David, but I must be wrong. I have his dates as 1847-74. So who the heck is THIS David Dickson? Way too many David Dicksons...! 

So you have neither a birth date nor a death date for the Australian David Dickson, correct? I have tried searching for Mary Dickson Sloane but there are so many possibilities that I haven't been able to pin her down either.

I think you are correct, and the "if called upon" language in the Will indirectly supports the idea that David Dickson the younger had emigrated, and may not find it worthwhile to travel back to Ireland to pick up his 2/6.

Attaching a photo of Agnes Dickson taken in the 1880s.

Thanks for the photo.

No, I don't have any dates for David. I've also had another go today to find Mary Dickson Sloane but without success.

When the virus allows, I have plans to go over to the records office and work through the Magherally baptismal register which goes back to 1837 so might shed more light on David and Eliza's children.

Regards .... Pete

Having lived in the townland of Mullafernaghan for most of my life i can add that there are presently at least three `Dickson` families still living there

Regards

Roy.

That's wonderful to know. Thank you very much.

That's wonderful to know. Thank you very much.