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I have been trying to locate birth/baptism information for my great great grandfather Patrick Gahan. He was transported to Australia as a convict arriving in 1840, aged about 15. He was an errand boy in Dublin prior to being convicted of theft. He had a previous conviction also for theft. I have found some records for baptisms in Dublin, but its difficult to know if I have the right person. (There are parents Maurice Gahan and Cath Farrell who are a possibility). I am also not sure if he would have originated from Dublin or moved there from another area, in which case I need to refocus my search.

I'm interested to know how much people moved around at the time - some seemed to stay in the same area their entire lives. Patrick didn't move far once he arrived in Australia. Any help or hints would be greatly appreciated.

Nan Hewitt

NanArana

Saturday 16th January 2021, 04:25AM

Message Board Replies

  • Hi Nan,

    You have supplied information in relation to Patrick Gahan. I have checked www.findmypast.ie and I see a record of 180 male passengers being shipped to New South Wales. One is recorded as "Patrick Gahan. 15 years, Catholic who was being transported for burglary. His native county is recorded as "County Dublin". Convicted on March 6th 1840 in Dublin City and the sentence was 7 years. The name of the ship was King William and the Master was George Thomas. The arrival date August 17th 1840. Had he any siblings?

    Regards,

    McCoy

    Saturday 16th January 2021, 09:19PM
  • I think I am already on this message board but it was some time ago. My ancestor Daniel Nolan/Nowlan came from Dublin as well and was convicted of burglary at the Dublin Assizes in April 1934. He was a Coach Painter's boy 19 years old and transported to Australia on the Royal Admiral reaching Nelson Bay north of Sydney in January 1835. There was another Daniel Nolan convicted in the same week but he was older and was transported on the Pireaus.

    Daniel married Mary Lannon who emigrated from Elfin in Roscommon on the Wilson in 1842. When he died his death certificate noted that his father was William Nolan a coach builder and his mother was Mary Tennant/Tarrent. Daniel and Mary did not seem to follow the Irish convention of naming their children if William was indeed his father. His first child was a daughter Elizabeth Mary, His first son Charles Thomas, (we think Thomas may have been Mary Lannon's brother as both their parents were Patrick/Peter Lannon and Mary Murtagh. Their next daughter was Catherine and there were two little boys named Daniel (the second one named Daniel after his elder brother died.)They also had a daughter Mary who died as an infant. Daniel and Mary were married in East Maitland NSW in1845 then they moved to Scone..

    Because Daniel was charged in Dublin we do not have any confirmation as to where he actually was born as was the above Patrick Gahan. Therefore it is difficult to find his parentage or indeed if he had any siblings. Margaret Holmes, although I think my user name is nolan9, I still am finding my way around this website. I have found it very valuable in other areas of research but have been tentative about posting messages. I will have to lift my game!

    nolan9

    Sunday 17th January 2021, 04:08AM
  • Hi Nan,   I have looked at the transportation record and it is much as McCoy said,although I think the age may be 16, anyway the only Patrick I found in the church records that matches is a Patrick Gahan of Parents David and Maryanne,(her sirname not given) on the 8th of September 1823 Baptised in St Audoens in Dublin. I looked at the actual record and there is no other infomation on it, There were two other Siblings a Catherine 15/3/1822 and Joseph 21/4/1825 same parents same church. I think that your Patrick was possible from Dublin as there are records for transportation for different counties and his is in Dublin you might find the judges name in other counties .,  As to people moving around in Dublin, The saying was, " cheaper to move than pay."  I have noticed that you get differet addresses at each baptism if any., for most people.     Sorry I didnt give you the sponsors or god parents names,  in Patricks it was Abraham Stewart and Julia Head , Michael Gahan and Mary Darcy, for Catherine, and Margaret Costello for Joseph ..  hope this might help, I assume that you know that there Transportation records in the Archives of Australia,, Walk in with Library ticket.   Best  searcher.

    searcher

    Sunday 17th January 2021, 09:12PM
  • Thank you so much. Yes, McCoy had the correct Patrick Gahan, I should have given more detail, my apologies. I have sourced information for the time from his transportation to Australia - my father did a great deal of research and I have a copy of the information he collated, including copies of archival records etc. New South Wales has a good online index of convict records including arrival and name of the ship, tickets of leave, applications to marry, deaths, and conditional or full pardons.

    Patrick was granted a ticket of leave in 1845 and assigned to the Yass district (NSW). This meant he would be paid for his work. He worked on a property called St Omer, near a hamlet called Braidwood and remained there after his sentence was completed. In 1853 he married a young widow, Mary Harrington (nee Kelly) who had one child named John, after his father. (John Harrington senior was also a  convict). Patrick and Mary had nine children - most of whom I have traced. Mary died of puerperal fever after the birth of the last of the children, Honora (known as Norah). Mary Kelly came to Australia as a child along with her family on the Forth which arrived in Sydney on 28 August 1841. They were from Birr, Kings County (County Offaly) and were assisted immigrants. Patrick died at Tarago, also in NSW.

    Margaret - my family certainly followed the traditional naming pattern for children. There were quite a few Patricks in the family - it can get a bit confusing. There is also a Patrick Tynan in the family tree (bounty immigrant from Kilkenny) so more Patricks there.

    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gahan-154

    Once again, many thanks.

    NanArana

    Monday 18th January 2021, 02:44AM
  • Nan, in order to accurately find correct records for Patrick, you should try to obtain either his marriage or death record.

    Either or both of these should name his parents. 

    Then, when you have his parents names, you can then focus on Dublin parish records.

    Good luck with your search! 

    Carmel

    Carmel Gilbride

    Monday 18th January 2021, 05:26PM
  • Thank you Carmel. I have a copy of both his marriage certificate and his death certificate. His parents are not named on either.

    I traced further on the information provided by 'researcher' and found that the family moved to Birmingham. There is a death recorded for a Patrick in Birmingham so I don't think that is the correct record. However, it has given me an idea for helping to identify the correct baptism. Could be a lengthy process though.

    Cheers, Nan

    NanArana

    Tuesday 19th January 2021, 02:20AM
  • Hi Nan, What Carmel says is correct,(usually is ) its hard to look for someone if you dont know who he is,but I would say this to you,dont give up , there is a way around everything. Also the Marriage of Margaret and Patrick, try to look at the origional entry, sometimes the writers do not write up all that is entered. Also you have seen the entry of the Kellys arriving in australia so you are quite capable,to look into Patricks trial in Dublin , which more than likely had someone making a plea for him,it was Dublin according to the entry as he arrived on the King William to Australia. You Might also get Margarets birth in Offaly in the NLI church records Best Myles Brady, Searcher

    searcher

    Tuesday 19th January 2021, 08:16PM
  • Nan, 

    I would echo Myles suggestion to look at the original marriage and/or death record to see if further information was recorded but not transcribed, fingers crossed!

    There are at least two baptisms of a Patrick /Pat Gahan in Dublin in 1823, as noted Maurice and Catherine and David and Mary Anne.

    At current level of information, you have no way of adjudicating as to which may be correct. And thats before you even consider the possible variants of the surname.

    However, if either of these records were correct, then you might expect to find the name David or Maurice in the children Patrick and Mary had.  You are familiar with naming patterns so if either of those names were given to Patrick's children, it would lean you more towards that family

    If it was either David or Maurice, each set of parents seem to have more children, perhaps one child remained in Dublin . So DNA would be useful.

    Also,as you have researched Mary Kelly 's family, eliminate the Kelly names from the named children, and you should be left with the Gahan possibilities. 

    But of course Patrick may have been orphaned and that is why his parents' names are not on either the death or marriage record, which is very sad, but alas, not uncommon.

    Carmel

     

    Carmel Gilbride

    Wednesday 20th January 2021, 10:31AM
  • Hi Nan,  Its amazing what you find on the internet these days, when I was looking for Patrick Gahan in the transportation records i noticed that were two patrick Gahan mentioned but paid no attention to it,on deleting some things later, I looked at the second one which mentioned a date of 1825 and so I checked it out. It seems that there was a Patrick Gahan in 1825/1826 case no PPC2986 in Kilmainham ,for theft of a hat and a watch,didnt check it out fully but it seems he may have been Transported too.  Is it possible that a child grew up without a father and ended up as Patrick did. I havent checked it out fully at mom but thought you might or not yourself.  Come back if you want to but cant   Best 

    searcher

    Wednesday 20th January 2021, 10:44AM
  • Sorry Nan Forgot to Mention, Henry Doyle,was charged the same day as Patrick and maybe the same crime, was he ever mentioned as a Sponsor or other in Patricks life , He got his ticket on 28/4/1848, also went over on the same ship. Best

    searcher

    Wednesday 20th January 2021, 02:27PM
  • Thanks. I had realised that there was another (possibly even two other) Patrick Gahan's sent out but never considered the possibility they might be related to my Patrick. It's definitely worth following up which I can do using records available online/in Australia. Patrick is the name found among the children - there is a Bernard Patrick, and also a Patrick. Bernard (or Barnett) has been passed down, as has Patrick.

    Both parents names are given as 'unknown' on Patrick's death certificate, of which I have a full copy. Irish people who came to Australia freely (usually as assisted or bounty immigrants) often had 'native of Kilkenny' (or relevant county) on their gravestones but no county is given for Patrick.

    I have had a DNA test and have my results which I may be useful for confirmation later on.

    NanArana

    Thursday 21st January 2021, 01:10AM
  • I'm not able to access actual records present in archives etc at present. They are held on the other side of the country which is about 4000 kilometres away, and there are travel restrictions between states due to Covid. I would most likely have to spend at least two weeks in quarantine. So I'm limited to online, although both state and the national archives have some good resources. I can also access the National Library here, and the Catholic Parish Registers at NLI as well as some other Irish records.

    NanArana

    Thursday 21st January 2021, 01:23AM
  • Nan, You dont indicate the birth order for the children, but the as a general rule, the first born son was named for the paternal grandfather, the second son for the maternal grandfather, the third son for the father himself.  Then a name may be selected from the father's brothers. So the name Bernard is useful for your search.  Depending on where the child Bernard is in the family it may give you some clue . Of course Bernard could be a Kelly name. 

    I note that the parents of Pat Gahan ( 1823) David and Mary Anne had a son Bernard baptised in 1837, which makes them of continuing interest to your search.  In fact this couple had a large family, ten or eleven, including Pat and Bernard. You may want to follow this family through and if your DNA comes up with a match, you can refer to the paper records for this family.  While we all wait (impatiently) for all archives to reopen. Carmel

     

    Carmel Gilbride

    Thursday 21st January 2021, 06:19PM
  • Hi Nan, I looked for, but did not find the arrival of Patrick senior in Australia. It could be that I just did not find it or it could be that it isnt there. I did find a Plea for him not to be transported,although he was on the list. It was hard to read I think it was from a Matw. Noble,no title given, to the Govenor General of Ireland. The plea was that he had stolen a Watch and a Hat from a Mr Murray of Dunlaoghaire(dunleary) but a lady from Blackrock (Rose White) said that Murray was fighting with Gahan who was in no fit state (Liquior) to know what he was doing by stealing the watch and hat.  If it worked or not  ??      Nan I love to put the cat among the pigeons, according to your dates on WikiTree Patrick died on 13/2/1899 aged 77 if this is true then Patrick was more like 18 when arrested which means born 1822 approx. Which would bring Patrick Gahan Baptised on 25/1/1821 son of Patrick and Elizabeth Tighe of Liffey Street Dublin into play, I also found that Henry Doyle  (  I mentioned him before ) came from Sackville Lane, which is only a stones throw from Liffey street , The only question I have about this is where was Patrick Senior when he stole the watch,to connect a man from dunleary and a woman from blackrock and himself.   Sorry Nan you prob. wont understand this question.... Patricks first son wasJames William possibly like some of my ancestors the two paternal grandfathers , more confusion.   Best for now Myles

    searcher

    Thursday 21st January 2021, 07:42PM
  • Sorry Carmel, i forgot to say , there was a Bernard  second  son and a Patrick third son., even more confusion or not.. I love puzzles  Myles

    searcher

    Thursday 21st January 2021, 07:52PM
  • Hi Nan, Something entirely different I noticed tonight and last night that the planets are all in a line but we cant see them from here as they are up during daylight , I assume it will be the same where you are, but I just wondered.? What a sight.

    searcher

    Friday 22nd January 2021, 12:43AM
  • Hi,

    Yes, the ages could be incorrect. The convict records give an age of 15 when transported but the reported age given by Patrick could be incorrect (he was illiterate and probably innumerate as well). The age on his death certificate could also be incorrect - it was given by his son who may not have been sure of his exact age. I found Henry Doyle in the records - he went on to Bathurst which was some distance from Braidwood where Patrick ended up. In many cases, convicts (those not considered dangerous) were assigned to landowners who needed the free/cheap labour to help clear the land and make it suitable for farming, and to help with farming. Convicts didn't have any say in where they were sent. Some were treated well, others were not. I'd assume that Patrick was fairly happy at St Omer as he stayed on there for some time. He followed what is a fairly typical pattern of serving his sentence prior to marrying (permission was required to marry while still under sentence). It was a hard life - not just for the convicts - in this harsh brown land. It's so hot and dry compared to Ireland, although it can be cold in some areas with snow and frosts during winter.

    James William was the first son so James is a possibility for the father. There is no known William on either side and no Bernard unless that was the name of Patrick's father or one of his brothers. The first daughter is named Bridget which may or may not be a clue. The second is Margaret which is the name of Mary's mother.

    I didn't know about the planets being in alignment. The night sky is pretty good here (I am in a rural town) but its heaps better on the Nullarbor where there's no backlight. Totally amazing, there are millions of stars.

    Cheers, Nan

    NanArana

    Saturday 23rd January 2021, 09:38AM
  • Hi Nan, Yes I agree,all the doors are open and couples dont always follow naming patterns,my father and mother sort of did but didnt follow any rules,there were eight of us,and we all went our own way. You can be lucky or not, myself  and Sean have been searching for our GT GT Grandfathers birth for almost forty years( Sean alas RIP) ,, I suppose its a case of going through all the possabilities again, there is also the rest of the country, Ill have a look again to see if I can find a Plea for Patrick,although there was no mention of family on the other Patricks plea.  Best for now,     as to the stars Nullarbor a strange name,no trees,sounds like Easter Island  Best Myles

    searcher

    Saturday 23rd January 2021, 09:10PM
  • Marilyn, I dont know if you have seen, on the shipping record, a detailed description of Patrick Gahan, as to height, colouring etc 

    There are details of scars , moles and a number of tatoos.

    It is an easy matter to google details of what the different tatoos mean, 

    In addtional to some standard tattoos ( anchor etc0 Patrick  has six letters tattooed  , as you can see in the extract

    I have uploaded and attached. 

    Could these letters be initials? B G PG? 

    It is interesting that the second daughter was named for the maternal grandmother, Margaret, which fits 

    the naming pattern used by Irish families so very consistently, 

    Could the first daughter, Bridget, be named for the paternal grandmother? 

    I also note the third son is named Patrick, for his father, which fits with the naming pattern

    which was fol

    lowed by Irish families up to the early part of the 20th century.  

    Of course we dont see the name Michael, the maternal grandfather, unless this name was given to a child

    who did not survive

    I presume you have seen the originals of all the birth records for all Patrick's children? They can give an amazing amount of detail as to the number of children the parents already have etc. 

    It is also interesting to note the distinction made in the record between Dublin city and Dublin county. Athough tried in Dublin city, his place of origin is given as County Dublin.   If Patrick was indeed from the county, and not the city, this presents a problem.  Although the city had many churches dating to much earlier times, many of the rural villages that ringed Dublin, to the north, south east and west may not have had a church when Patrick was baptised circa 1825. This was a few years before catholic emancipation ( 1829) and it is after this time that you get the building of parish churches. 

    Carmel 

    Carmel Gilbride

    Sunday 24th January 2021, 04:37PM

    Attached Files

  • Australia didn't have compulsory registration at the time the children were born. There are only baptismal records for the last two children who were born at Boro, rather than Braidwood. This could have been due to cost, the distance required to travel, or the parent's illiteracy. Some births, in the Goldfields, for instance, were never recorded. I don't have all the originals - there is a significant cost involved, and they don't exist for two of the children. Death records which I do have also note the number of children and they indicate that Patrick had nine children and Mary had ten which is correct.

    I did have the description but never paid the tattoos much attention. I will look into them as tattoos generally have some personal meaning for the person who has them. If the initials are BG and PG that could be an indication of the parents' names.  On another matter all together I have a significant DNA match with someone in Ireland where I can identify the common surname which is Mulhall (another branch of the family).

    NanArana

    Monday 25th January 2021, 02:26AM
  • Hi, What a great piece of info,Carmel, I havent been looking in the right places. When I saw the Gs I thought Gahan, but then noticed that it was slightly different,  B. GP. G if the dots or full stops are intentional, I have no idea of the codes that go with tattoos,the fish and anchor to me says seas but I am more than likely wrong. If it was BP PG it could be a decloration of Love or honor , BGputting someone befor himself PG. I didnt find the baptism records but didnt worry once I had the childrens names as i do feel that the answer lies on this side of the water. I havent found his trial yet,may have something or nothing. The DNA is a great idea,although it is dependent on your unknown relatives getting it done too. As the Gahan motto says ,where there is life there is hope  Best   Myles

    searcher

    Monday 25th January 2021, 02:30PM
  • I have found the marriage of a Barnaby (aka Bernard) Gann to Mary Larkin at Haddington Road in 1817. I am following up Carmel's suggestion to look at the County rather than the city. There is also a baptism for James Gahan there in 1818 with them as parents. I have also seen a record for a Patrick Gahan there but it did not give a date or parents names. So I am working my way through the Parish Records in the hope of finding more information and hopefully more children to the same family.

    I think I will need to follow the trails through as far as possible - if it ends up being a false trail I can at least cross it off the list.

    Yes, DNA can be a bit hit and miss, I have joined a few DNA matching projects and will just have to wait and review the results from time to time. I did locate a cousin (also in Australia) who is a descendent of Patrick's daughter Bridget. I've also found and communicate/collaborate with a few other cousins who are working on different branches of the family tree.

    NanArana

    Tuesday 26th January 2021, 02:46AM
  • Hi Nan,   having read a bit on Tattoos and transportation, it would seem and be possible that most of the tattoos were done on the trip out and if not encouraged by the powers that be,it was not discouraged,as a means of identification in Australia. also the four letters were usually their Parents as suggested by yourself and Carmel, and it does make sense.  So maybe the parents are BG PG is that Bridget as the first child, then James would be? The past is a foreign country... I think what you are doing at the moment is the right approach, collecting possabilities. Haddington road is a good choice as it covered Ringsend at that time.There was a lot of fishermen there and lots of boats. I spent many a good day fishing there at a time when you could, also I remember that one of my sisters had a friend from there by the name of Gahan. You can look at Had. road on the NLI it gives more info. also for most of the County Dublin its your only means, the map is best for this. Ringsend, Howth and Dunlaoghaire (Kingstown at that time) were the main fishing ports also Malahide to some degree. The other Patrick who was up for Transportation,stole the watch from a man in Dunlaoghaire and the lady from Blackrock, you go through Blackrock and then you are in Dunlaoghaire. At that time I was thinking the centre of Dublin but I wondered if Patrick lived in either of these and not the centre of the city. He may have no connection but ? Im looking at St Pauls Arran Quay at mom.  Best Myles

    searcher

    Tuesday 26th January 2021, 08:28PM
  • Hi Nan

    Do Patrick and Mary have a headstone, if so, do you have a photo, or transcription? You also mention that Australia did not have compulsory registration at the time the children were born, however, NSW introduced compulsory registration from 1856 so if Mary had 9 children after 1853, then most should be recorded. There are several children registered under GANN - one of whom is Barnett born 1861. I also like the suggestion to look at the original church marriage register for the marriage. In some cases, this can vary considerably with the information sent to the Registrar.

    Good luck, Jan

     

     

    grantos

    Thursday 28th January 2021, 02:57AM
  • Attached is thei ndex for the birth referred to by Jan for Barnett Gann at Braidwood in 1861 . It quotes a registration number.

    Athough we are under lockdown here in Dublin, our Registar's office are  now providing an online service so it is possible to obtain certificates during the pandemic.  Family history has proved very popular at this strange time and having access to this particular archive is great. Might be worth checking out if the NSW Registrars are providing such a service.  Cost for a single certificate here in Ireland is modest, if you know the exact details.  so thats why I have included the relevant info in attached.

    I have also attached a newspaper report of Patrick's court case, which outlines that the sacks stolen were from a baker. 

    Great to hear that about the tattoos and their possible significance, Myles. 

    If the tattoos represent initials then maybe BG is  Bernard Gahan or Bridget Gahan.  P for Patrick? We can only speculate and hope that Australian sources provide you with more concrete evidence. You say, Nan , that you are in touch with a descendant of Bridget's daughter. As Bridget was the oldest of Patrick's children,  is it possible this branch have more information.?  It has been my experience that the older ones in a family are privy to more information than younger branches. 

    In relation to searching for parish records for Dublin county, they are not all recorded on one website. Irishgenealogy,ie the free goverment website only covers a portion of Dublin's parish records, mainly the city, though not exclusively.  Many more on rootsireland.ie , behind a pay wall 

    If not done already, familysearch.org may have all the Dublinparishes in one place. Otherwise, ancestry and findmypast.ie

    But my point about the county was that sadly, some villages did not have parish churches at the time Patrick was born. Catholicism was legally outlawed until 1829.  

    Carmel

     

    Carmel Gilbride

    Thursday 28th January 2021, 03:43PM

    Attached Files

  • Carmel, the NSW Registrars Office are certainly operating during Covid. However, in NSW we have transcription agents who go into the Registry Office and check the entry and provide a typed copy.  It contains all the information from the original certificate and is more than sufficient for family history purposes. The advantage is that it is cheaper - usually $20.00 per certificatee (as opposed to $45.00 for an actual certificate from the Registry. One agent Marilyn Rowan, http://www.nswtranscriptions.com.au/ has a special of $19.00 if you order between 8pm-10pm daily. These are emailed quite quickly, currently within a week. There are a couple of other children registered under GANN also so always pays to look at variations in spelling.

    Jan

    grantos

    Thursday 28th January 2021, 09:35PM
  • Hi Carmel, do you have any access to court trials etc,  Im interested in Patricks trial and former run ins with the law, or is it a physical trip to Bishop street.   Nan the task of looking through the church records is huge , even for Dublin alone ,  Ive reduced it to the relevant  years, The only Byrnes that were bakers in Dublin I could find was in New Street near Kevin Street, Best for now   Myles

    searcher

    Thursday 28th January 2021, 09:43PM
  • Thank you for the newspaper article. It does help to identify the area where the family most likely lived.

    The registry offices here have an online service so it is possible to order certificates online - they are sent as PDF by email. The transcription service is cheaper, I've not used that as yet.

    My father located birth information for all the children but did not get full documents for all of them - he was principally concerned with tracing his direct line. I have the record for Bernard (he was also called Barnett on some documents and was generally called Barney).

    I'm not absolutely sure but in some cases, I think he viewed the originals and transcribed them himself. Patrick and Mary's children as listed with different surnames - Gahan, Gann and Gern. The name was altered to Gann over the years. I have searched for all the records on the NSW Registry database and found all but the last two. Patrick and Honora were born when the family lived at Boro and I suspect the nearest Registry was at Braidwood. My father passed away some years ago so I am unable to ask where he located these records but I assume they were church records which have not been acquired by the central register. Patrick and Mary were relatively poor, both were illiterate, and travel would have been difficult with a large family and long work hours.

    I suspect the tattoos are Patrick's parent's initials - they are essentially what is known now as prison tattoos (people still do them). My best guess is Bridget and Patrick for first names.

    You're right Myles, searching the parish records is a huge task. Not all the records have been indexed though so it's the only way to view some of them.  It is possible to add filters to search only the most likely time frame. I am gradually getting a better understanding of Ireland which I think is a good thing. Obviously, a way to go on that, however.

    Carmel, is it possible there is no baptism record for Patrick?

    There are no headstones for either Mary or Patrick. Mary was buried at Braidwood and Patrick at Tarago. If there were any markings on the graves they have been lost to time and weather.

    Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

    NanArana

    Friday 29th January 2021, 04:57AM
  • Nan, actually Irish parish records ( baptisms and marriages ) are indexed and available online.. 

    Once the National Library released the parish registers online, the commercial companies moved in

    and invested in employing staff to transcribe the registers. The main ones are findmypast.ie and ancestry.com

    I would also draw your attention to , the government sponsored irishgenealogy.ie which has a few counties, including some, but by no means all of Dublin's parish registers. 

    Rootsireland .ie  has some Dublin records and for most of the remaining Irish counties. 

    Also, familysearchg.org has some parish registers online 

     

    I am not sure what the nature of the Austrlain arecords you have in your possession, but if you do not have the original marriage record, it would be worth obtaining that.  The question was normally put as to the name of the parents of the bride and groom.  It would be very very unusual for a party to the marriage not to know the names of their parents ( though I have seen that happen).  If that was the case, and Patrick didnt at the time of his marriage know the name of his parents, then all the searching in the world is unlikely to  yield a successful result.

    However, now that Jan has indicated the price scale, I can see that obtaining records would be a very expensive business indeed. The equivalent  cost to obtain an Irish certificate is six Australian dollars, not 45 !  

    Yes, it is possible that there is no baptismal record for Patrick, born circa 1825.  Catholics were at this time forbidden to practice their religion under a set of laws known as the Penal Laws. These laws were enforced in different ways around the island and Dublin had many parishes for its big population.  However, not all catholic parish records exist for the 1820s. sadly. 

    No, Myles, I dont have access to court records prior to 1840, not entirely sure that they have survived. However, you would need to contact the National Archives ( www.nai.ie) to ascertain that with any certainty. 

    Carmel

     

     

    Carmel Gilbride

    Friday 29th January 2021, 12:29PM
  • Thanks again, Carmel. I have applied for a full marriage certificate. I doubt that it will yield any additional information to what I already have but live in hope. My father was a very thorough researcher (although I have found a few bits of information which his records didn't have - a death record and a voyage to Australia). Historical records are $35 which is still quite a lot - so I generally only pay when it's essential. Including the names of the parents was optional in NSW prior to 1896 - this varies between Australian states. The states were all established as separate entities with their own stamps, procedures and even different rail gauges.

    I am convinced that Patrick had siblings, which is probably more likely than not. But if I tell the story about this you may think I'm being fanciful.

    Nan

    NanArana

    Saturday 30th January 2021, 02:09AM
  • Hi Nan

    When you say you have applied for a full marriage certificate, I assume you are talking about the copy from the Registrar's Office? This will give you no more information than a transcription (for $19). What you need to source is the marriage entry from the Church as this is where they sometimes filled in more information than the copy that they forwarded to the Registrar's Office. Given that he married in 1853, which was prior to compulsory registration, you may find that this is all you get. However, I would certainly try. I presume he married in Braidwood - the details for that church are - 

    St Bedes's Church

    72 Lascelles St
    Braidwood NSW 2622

    Postal Address: PO Box 141, Braidwood NSW, 2622

    Phone: (02) 4842 2444

    Fax: (02) 4842 2400

    Email: braidwood@cg.org.au

    Website: http://cg.org.au/Braidwood

     

    Braidwood comes under the Archdiocese of Canberra and Goulburn. Their archives are in Canberra, so if you do not have any success with Braidwood, perhaps their registers have already been transferred to Canberra so that would be the next place to try. 

     

    Jan

     

    grantos

    Saturday 30th January 2021, 10:21PM
  • HI Nan, Could be something , could be nothing, in Family search I have often found copies of the origional entry of a record.... I was on it today and remembered to look it up. I enterd patricks details looking for his marriage between 1840 to 1875 it came back with the marriage details correct, but told me I would have to go to a family search centre to see origional.  Is there one near you they show the map.. I know with covid etc, but I believe you have patience   Best Myles

    searcher

    Monday 1st February 2021, 07:07PM
  • Hi Searcher - I am booked in to the Family Search centre on 16 Feb so if you don't find anything before then I could have a look at the original for you.  Jan

     

    grantos

    Monday 1st February 2021, 09:52PM
  • I had never looked it up before, but there is a Family Search centre in Albany. As a consequence of Covid the National Library is allowing remote access to the Ancestry Library edition - a different thing altogether, but very handy - you just need to apply for a library card. 

    NanArana

    Tuesday 2nd February 2021, 02:30AM
  • Hi Grantos, That would be great if it is no trouble to you , Im sure Nan would be delighted do you have the details 1853 17th August, Mary Harrington and Patrick Gahan New sth Wales in case you dont   Thanks again  Myles

    searcher

    Tuesday 2nd February 2021, 11:20PM
  • Thank you Grantos, that would be much appreciated.

    Nan

    NanArana

    Wednesday 3rd February 2021, 01:42AM
  • Hi, its great to have a number of options now to see the church marriage record which Jan tells us would have more information

    than the state record.  

    I was wondering would the parish, St Bedes , respond to a request, either by phone or email, to look at the church register? 

    Have often resorted to that here in Ireland,.  You dont always get a positive responsbe, but its always worth a try. 

    Carmel

     

    Carmel Gilbride

    Wednesday 3rd February 2021, 01:52PM
  • Hi Nan
    Attached you will find the transcript of the marriage entry of Patrick and Mary. Unfortunately, it does not give the name of his parents, but does tell you that he could not write, given that he signed with his mark. Same for Mary. It also names two witnesses who probably also worked on St Omer. It was a long shot, but being 1853, information gathering was quite basic and sporadic, hence the compulsory registration Act in NSW which came into being in 1855. As St Omer was quite a large property at the time, they may have some estate records (not sure where they would be kept). Perhaps an enquiry to the Braidwood Historical Society might give you more information. https://www.braidwoodmuseum.org.au/home.php
    I also came across a book titled - The lonely pioneer : William Bunn, diarist, 1830 - 1901: of life and death, the land's relentless chapters / Mary Anne Bunn
    by Bunn, Mary Anne
    Braidwood, N.S.W. : St. Omer Pastoral Co., 2002
    BookBook
    Mary Anne Bunn was the wife of the original owner of the property.

    Good luck and best wishes,
    Jan

    grantos

    Tuesday 16th February 2021, 04:41AM

    Attached Files