Mary Grant & John Maguire

Paddy,

I had a look in the 1901 census for Co Down and there were 83 woman named Mary Grant. So a very common name. Without some idea of where she lived, her denomination and a parents name, I don’t really see how you would be able to determine your Mary from any of the many others that would have lived in Co Down with her.

Hi Paddy

www.rootsireland.ie/ has 18 Mary Grant baptisms from Down 1830 + - 3 years

Only suggestion is IF they followed the Irish naming pattern in naming thier 10 children the second son was named after the mother's father & first daughter after mother's mother so if you supply those details (names of 2nd son & 1st daughter) I can see if any of the 18 Mary Grant records has those names for the parents

Col 

Hi,  and thanks Elwyn and Colcaff for your help.

Was lucky enough to come across somebody else's family tree that looks accurate from what I know to be true. Mary's 10 children are;   James 1856-1927;  Phillip 1858-1908;   Mary 1859-1860;  Thomas1859-1864;  John 1861-1861; Nicholas J 1863-1887;  Mary 1865-1911;  Patrick 1866-1870;  Catherine 1869-1894;  Patrick 1871-1945. 

Another bit of a mystery is the emigrant John's first wife Sarah (as shown in passenger records and on another IrelandXO thread ). So far her surname is unknown, as is her place / county of origin.  Have found reference to a John and Sarah marrying between 1852 - 1856 but could not access the details and somewhere there is reference to the death of a Sarah McGuire in Adelaide in 1855, but again nothing more than that.  If my theory is right then John and Sarah had a daughter Margaret  who in about 1876 married a carpenter called John McGuire and had 2 children William 1876-1955 and John 1877- ? .  Then at age 31 married a Walter Joseph Johnson 1831-1905 on Nov 15 1886.  The records from St Andrew Manse show that she declared herself as a 31 yr old widow and the daughter of a John McGuire. The age and father's name strongly indicates that she was Margaret (about June 25 1855 - March 29 1915) the child of John McGuire and Sarah ? ?. She and Walter had 4 children;  Walter 1888-1966;  Annie Edith 1890-1966;  Margaret Pearl 1893-1972;  Catherine Ivie 1895-1961.

Thanks for the tip about the naming pattern. It may be an asset in tracking James's wife who was a Mary O'Sullivan 1859-1942.  

 Cheers   Paddy

Paddy no luck I'm afraid - there was no Mary Grant with parents Philip & Mary; closest was Patrick & Mary 1839 in Clonallon R C parish. Do you know if theyn were C of I or R C?

There were 5 others with mother Mary (1 of which had father Hugh Grant!)

There are 4 marriages of John McGuire to Sara 1852 - 56:

Church MarriageMaguireJohn1855Co. Tyrone
Church MarriageMacGuireJohn1856Co. Dublin
Civil MarriageMaguireJohn1851Co. Armagh
Civil MarriageMaguireJohn1851Co. Fermanagh

The first 2 are R C and the second 2 Civil Parishes

Col

Morning Col,  and thanks.

Re John's Ireland marriage the most likely possibility is the 1855 in Co. Tyrone. I have a vague recall of reading somewhere that back in those days it was common to not record the bride's name which hopefully is not the situation here if access can be gained to a document. Perhaps the R C church has them but which one.?  From best information John's family farm was not far from todays Fivemiletown and to the Sth East, but there doesn't seem to be a R C church in that town now.  Sarah's death in Adelaide is on record ( page 150 Vol #3).  In the event that her passing on June 25 1855 was brought on by child birth and the baby survived it must follow that she conceived around  Oct 1854.  I'd imagine that such events are likely to have been frowned upon, and especially so if her father was a Royal Navy Officer.

  Finding Mary is looking to be challenge requiring a bit of luck if there is to be a useful result. The best info is that she was born in 1830 and was listed as a domestic servant in the passenger record.  No clue as to religion but would suspect R C. Her marriage to John took place in the Clare (Sth Aust) residence of James White Allen(s) on 27/11/1855. Her first son James and other related McGuires are buried in the Cheltenham Cemetery in S A, so it looks like I'll have to take a holiday over there for 2-3 weeks to search for clues and check out the Rob Roy Hotel where Mary's 2nd son Phillip died in 1904.

   Take care.  Cheers  Pady

  Good  Morning Amy,

   My thoughts are that you may well have come across a/the missing link.  Obviously you and I are related as my  great grandfather was John and Mary's oldest son James who became the Railways Commissioner and was your Phillips brother. We've also read the same obituaries, I'd say, but when learning of Sarah's passing in July 1855 I failed to disconnect the belief that she was the Naval Officers daughter as is stated in an obit or 2. 

  In my searchings I'd come across Phillip, who I believe died in or near the Rob Roy hotel, and other McGuire families that I thought would have to be related back to John and Mary.  I now have 2 or 3 family trees in my file and 1 of them shows Phillip as having a brother Nicholas (1863-1887) and the birth of 2 Marys (1859-1860 & 1865-1911) so it could well be that Mary Grant's parents were a Nicholas and Mary of Co Down and that he was the Officer with Nelson on the 'Victory.'  Having been misled by some outlandish obit claims when searching my mum's ancestry some things may need to be taken with a grain of salt and as the Battle of Trafalgar was in 1805 it would follow that if Mary was born in about 1833 her father would be likely to have been aged about 50 for that event.  Have just googled Trafalgar crew lists and there is a George Grant aged 20 and paid as an Able Bodied Seaman that came from Co Down on board the HMS Dreadnought.  A more in depth look at the Victory in particular does not show a Grant, but my ability with computers is challenged, so I'm not giving up hope yet.

  I have to go now, but would welcome the opportunity to talk with you;  so if you'd like to send a phone number to me on 0428 400 426 I'll call you back as soon as time permits.  Or an email will be good too.  Dad's father was at Port Lincoln till he died in 1921 and I recall that there were cousins on farms in that area in the 1960's

   All the best and thanks;  Cheers  Paddy

In response to Amy's contribution:

"I had also concluded that John McGuire was married to a Sarah with a child, Margaret (born in South Australia). Can confirm that Margaret is a step-daughter of Mary Grant, as Mary's newspaper obituary mentions a stepchild, (Mrs M. Johnson). As mentioned above, Margaret McGuire married Walter Joseph Johnson."

Standard research principles call for primary evidence, and secondary evidence wherever possible. Such principles always rank higher than 'conclusion' and 'contributed information' found in Obituaries, albeit from family members, this amounts to heresay until supported by primary evidence.

Is there evidence of a child, Margaret, born locally? If so, reference the SA BDM record as your base evidence.

Supportable Facts Sumary

Mrs Walter J. Johnson, married after the 27 Jun 1885 death at Adelaide Hospital of husband John McGuire, carpenter from Omagh Co. Tyrone, arrived 23 Jul 1875, aboard Hesperides. Ref: SA Archive Shipping Lists and Adelaide Hosp. records.

John McGuire carpenter, son of Daniel (carpenter) and Margaret LYNCH, dau.of William, married at St Laurence Church, North Adelaide 01 Nov 1875. Ref: Book/ folio: 105/321

Over the period 1875 – 1885, 7 children born to Margaret (nee LYNCH) & John McGuire, occupation Carpenter stated in Birth Certificates, being 3 sons and 4 daughters. No daughters survived infancy. The last born 1885, after death of John, was the subject of an inquest: Finding suffocation by pillow.

The inquest revealed concerns about previous infant-deaths, mother's drinking habits and disparity between older brothers' statements to police and that sworn by the mother.  Ref: Inquest file; SA Archives @ Gepps Cross.

15 Nov.1886 Margaret (widow) McGuire remarries Walter J Johnson, as Margaret McGuire, rather than as LYNCH.  By common practice a woman marries under her last known name. Johnson, a bushman from Wilmington, 20 years her senior.

Of the 3 McGuire-Lynch sons, 1876: William (Will), 1877: John and 1880: Daniel Peter, the youngest died 1913 @Wilmington Ref: 378/413. Unconfirmed, but by word of mouth from a Johnson descendant, Will & John never married.

Death Cert. of Widow Johnson, 29 Mar 1915, states "Birthplace & Length of residence in Australia:  Ireland. 40 years in Australia" and "Age at Marriage or Remarriage: Remarried 30 years"  Ref:  Book/folio 392/79

From the Death. Cert. information, it can be inferred that Miss Margaret LYNCH entered Australia around 1875. However, as about 20% of S.A.Shipping Records are not extant, naming the vessel is problematic.

DNA as supporting evidence

To test the hypothesis that a baby born 1855 in S.A. to a Sarah and a John McGuire is the same person as Widow Johnson (d. 1915), descendants of the said John McGuire and descendants of Mrs Johnson could avail themselves of DNA testing.