O'Sullivan - Margaret Mary b. 1850 parents Patrick and Mary

Jenny:

I searched the subscription site Roots Ireland for the Killarney RC parish records. The only Margaret Sullivan (O'Sullivan) baptismal records in Killarney with father Patrick and mother Mary were in 1833 and 1875.  NOTE Most 19th century records usually dropped the O.

What year did Margaret marry?

It is possible that she was baptized in a parish near Killarney. Many immigrants would say they were from the nearest big town rather than from a smaller area that was not known to Americans.

I widened my search to all of Co. Kerry and located two possible leads in nearby parishes. Keep in mind that immigrants also adjusted their age when they came to their new country. Usually, made themselves younger. They also changed their date of birth. I'm always suspicious of people allegedly born March 17th or December 24/25.

Margaret Sullivan baptized March 15 1846 in Kilgarvan RC parish father Patrick Sullivan mother Mary Shea. Live in Ardtully

Margaret Sullivan baptized August 15 1848 in Beaufort RC parish father Patrick Sullivan mother Mary Sullivan (Sullivan was likely her maiden name). Lived in Cullina

NOTE Beaufort is the RC parish just to the west of Killarney and Kilgarvan is the parish to the southeast of Killarney.

Have you tested your DNA?

Let me know what questions you have.

Roger McDonnell

Hello Jenny

My name is Donie O Sullivan and my Father was a Killarney man so I am taking an interest in your request.Roger .above seems to have covred the situation well I completed my O Sullivan family tree some years ago and found that the Killarney parish records go back to about 1793 .I found my great grandfathers wedding there in 1806.Most Kerry O Sullivans are decendants of the O Sullivan Môr branch ie the major branch and they have a slightly different coat of arms 

I will have a look at some records and will let you know if anything else surfaces.

I havd read your story and a few things stand out..The government sponsored national school system was founded in Ireland in 1831and by the 1850's there were state schools all over the country for 5-14 year old children.By the time teachers were recruited and parsihes could afford to contribute to the cost it was in the 1840's before the system was widespread. The famine greatly affected the school system as I know that when our local school opened in 1847 there were about 300 pupils attending hedgeschools but only 70 attended the school ,mainly out of fear.  .Hedge schools were everywhere up to then and some continued afterwards while parents could afford the fees to the teachers.

Your great grandmother would have got her education in a hedge school

You mentioned being a distance from Killarney town but must have been no more than about 5 miles from it to walk there which would rule out most neighbouring parishes.The mention of a rectory is interesting as these  belonged to the protestant clergyman whereas the catholic priests residence was generally called a presbytery.,However protestant clergymen, who were quite wealthy often employed catholic people.I assume your Grandmother was a catholic.

Your Great grandmother could have been born in a different parish and moved ,when she married ,to the Killarney area.

i will look for your great grandmothers wedding and see what that turns up

Regards

Donie

Jenny

I seem to have mixed up your great grandmother Margaret mary with your great,great grandmother Mary. It is mary who would have attended the hedge schools and Margaret mary should have attended normal state school.I looked for marriages for Patrick and Mary1840-1850 and found a patrick married a Mary Leary in killarney on 16th Oct 1849- a good possibility.

Another patrick married a Mary Sullivan in killarney 2nd feb.1845- another possibility.

a third patrick married a Mary Donoghue in neaby Glenflesk parish on 1st Aug 1844,a rural parish . about 5 miles from Killarney.

a fourth Patrick married a Mary sullivan in Firies parish about 6-7 miles from Killarney.

I failed to find margaret mary's baptism and the date may not be correct as it is from memory only. i will search if any of the 4 above couples had a daughter to match even though the date s may not match,will let you know if I find anything

donie

Hi Roger and Donie, thanks so much for replying.

Roger - Margaret didn't marry until she came to America. She married in the state of New York in 1872. Thank you for the tip that 19th-century records normally would drop the "O" ! have tested my DNA, and right now I do have a match trying to figure out how we are related. She is pretty sure it is on Margaret's line. Thank you for those baptism leads, very helpful.

Donie - I love hearing how far you went back on your O'Sullivan line and where it originated. So that means we are most likely distant cousins?

So, a Hedge school is a government-sponsored state school?

Yes, she was Catholic. Thank you for those possibilities, yes!

I found Margaret's obituary and it also has some good leads for siblings.I've attached the file. It says she has a sister, Mrs. Driscoll (I found her name to be Katherine) and a brother, Daniel.

Donie - is your family tree somewhere public - like Ancestry? Would it be ok to share my email with you?

Would siblings most likely all be baptized in the same church? If I can find a Katherine and a Daniel baptized with the same parents, then that would be the goal?

Thank you both for your help, I'm excited to have some possibilities!

Jenny

FYI: Update - I might have a lead on Patrick O'Sullivan's wife via DNA. This person who is DNA match to me on Ancestry is working with a hypothesis that it could be Mary Eagan

Hi Donie and Jenny

O those numerous Killarney  Sullivan/O"Sullivans do provide challenges for family history enthusiasts! The use of the O seems to vary.Complicated when a Sullivan marries another Sullivan as in my family

My four great grandparents came from Killarney- one couple from the town (Humphrey and Maria McCarthy Sullivan) had 8 children whose Baptisms were all located.Humphrey lived in Old Market Lane Killarney in 1854,and is listed in a 1828 Trade Directory as a spirit store and public house owner)

Five of those children came to Victoria Australia and had success gold mining.I have not been able to locate John(born 1822)

and twins Margaet/Mary(born 1823) .perhaps all died in infancy or childhood

Good luck with  further searching

Moranding

Hello Jenny

A few pointers on your reply above.

Hedge schools were not state sponsored.They were set up and funded,privately , mainly by catholics families and each child had to pay a fee to the teachers to support them.During penal times they were banned and therefore took place in secret locations,often in the open air in a sheltered location and also in cattle sheds with lookouts posted.As the penal laws were relaxed towards the late 1700's they were more open. The protestant community had proper schools funded by wealthy landlords  much earlier and my parish is typical. A local landlord donated 6 acres to the local protestant parish clergy to accommodate a new purpose built school with living quarters ,upstairs for the master and his family..This was in 1822 and whereas  the local state sponsored non denominational school opened in 1847.Interestingly the Catholic parish had built a new church in 1821 and the new protestant school was erected right across the road from this churdh...almost like an act of defiane..This became an issue during the famine as the protestsnt commuity opened up a soup kitchen in the school  at mass times across the road..There is a mith that those who chose the soup over attending mass dropped the o and Mac from their names 

My e mail is donieosul@gmail.com.and It is possible we could be distant cousims.my tree  on Ancestry is O Sullivan Family Tree and is basic lineage but I have produced a story of the family with more info and i can e mail that to you

During the 1800's some families moved residence for various reasons especially during the famine.Some were evicted, some changed to another landlord .some moved to a relatives location ,some may have got employment  elsewhere ,especially skilled masons,horse trainers etc.As families emigrated others would have moved in so there was a fair amount of movement 

Many families dropped the O and the Mac to fit in better with the establishment and this was prevalent on those that emigrated to America. Some also  adopted names of colours to be neutral such as  brown,black,green etc  trades like mason,gardiner, baker etc were also used..

 I will examine the additional info you provided later

Donie

I have looked on Find My Past and the baptismal records of the Haydens children and their marriage record in Ornage County NY. all appear (I will try to attach). When you are looking for verfication and you run into a brick wall a helpful strategy is to to step to the side. In all these records there are the names of godparents and witnesses who are usually close realtives and some appear more than once including Haugh, (O)Sullivan, O'Driscoll (Mary Agnes O'Driscoll and your obit lists a sister named O'Driscoll, Strahan, Nolan Purcell and O'Connor. Catherine O'Sullivan is the witness at the marriage and Kate Sullivan is a godmother - likely the same person and Margaret's sister.

I would try and get the death records of the brother in Indiana and Mrs. O'Driscoll in Middletown to confirm parents' names. When did Margaret die? DId you get her death certificate. Then if need be you could expand to do some research on some of the godparents. Certainly O'Connor is very common in Kerry and perhaps the O'Connor godmother is another married sister.

As far as Killarney is concerned, my great grandmother, Mary Noonan (1863-1914) was always understood by her family as from Killarney and the 1886 passenger list lists Killarney as her place of origin. More specifically she was from Barleymount, several miles from Killarney, in the Parish of Firies at the time of her birth and since added to the Parish of Fossa.

Hi Again, Jenny,

On Find My Past at St. Joseph's in Middletown in 1872, Daniel Driscoll and Catherine Sullivan marry and have 6 children baptized there. Again witnesses and godparents will give you more clues and now you can look for the death of Catherine Driscoll

Hi Edward, thank you so much for all the leads! I did find some records previously on Find My Past for Margaret's children, yes, but I didn't even think to check for her sister Catherine for some reason! I will dive into those records. I did send for Catherine's death certificate recently, yes. Margaret died in Windsor, Connecticut, USA in Nov of 1909 and I do have her death certificate, yes. It lists her parents as Patrick O'Sullivan and Mary. The informant was Margaret's daughter, Kathryn. 

Yes, I think I will focus on getting the death info on Margaret's brother, Daniel and her sister Catherine and explore godparents as well. Everyone here has given me some good leads on possible maiden names for Margaret's mother, Mary. This will keep me busy for a while! Thanks everyone!

Hi Donie, 

Thank you for the information and for your email address. Mine is jhawran@comcast.net  I will email you shortly. Thank you!

Jenny

Hi everyone, I tried to post this yesterday, but I don't see it here, so I'll try again. 

The update is I have found my great-grandmother in the parish register...and she has a twin brother! I also found the marriage record of her parents. I know her mother was Mary Egan. I thought her father was Patrick Sullivan, but that may have been his middle name. I was hoping you all might be able to help me out with what the entry says. I'm not sure if her father's name means James or John. I would appreciate any help reading the entry. Are those witnesses, or are they the names of the fathers?

Thanks for any help you can give me. I'm excited to have broken through this brick wall

I've attached it here and here is the direct link. It is 22 of March 1841, the second entry from the bottom on the left side. 

https://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000634290_191

Hi everyone, I tried to post this yesterday, but I don't see it here, so I'll try again. 

The update is I have found my great-grandmother in the parish register...and she has a twin brother! I also found the marriage record of her parents. I know her mother was Mary Egan. I thought her father was Patrick Sullivan, but that may have been his middle name. I was hoping you all might be able to help me out with what the entry says. I'm not sure if her father's name means James or John. I would appreciate any help reading the entry. Are those witnesses, or are they the names of the fathers?

Thanks for any help you can give me. I'm excited to have broken through this brick wall

I've attached it here and here is the direct link. It is 22 of March 1841, the second entry from the bottom on the left side. 

https://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000634290_191

Hello J.Hawran

Saw your recent post and may be of help, the marriage of John Sullivan from Direenblaha and  Mary Egan from Toureenalow took place in Kenmare Catholic Church which is a tourist town about 20 miles south of Killarney. Date 22 March 1841. If the record is also in Templemore parish then it would appear that a new parish was created there after 1841 and it was customary to transfer the relevant records of the old  parish  to the new parish so they will appear then in both places. I will assume Kenmare,being a town, would have a parish before Templenoe.

Look up irishgenealogy.ie and open the church records as the Kerry diocese is fully digitised and you will find more info there in English.

I hope this is of assistance

Donie