Obtaining copies of land grants in the North Carolina / Virginia Colony by either King George II or King George III

I?d be slightly cautious about some of the information you have. For example you mention a Merle Grogan born Ireland in 1670. The name Merle is completely unknown in Ireland. (There isn?t a single one in the 1901 census). Not sure whether the name Paddy was in use in Ireland in the 1600s and 1700s either.  Likewise you refer to someone possibly migrating in 1622. That?s very early. There was very little migration to the USA in the 1600s. That?s not to say it didn?t happen but it?s well outside the normal time periods. Largescale migration from Ireland didn?t really start till the early 1700s onwards.

Oliver Cromwell lived from 1599 to 1658. His occupation of Ireland, and the land confiscations that accompanied it, took place in 1649/1650.

It is correct that save for a few fragments, there are no censuses in Ireland before 1901. There are other sources though eg Griffiths Valuation for the mid 1800s, tithe applotment records for the 1820s/30s and the Registry of Deeds which has some land transactions back to 1709. However most Irish research comes to a standstill around 1800 due to lack of records, and save for very wealthy or very notorious people there?s very little for the 1600s. You are most unlikely to get back earlier than ?Merle? 1670 (who is almost certainly not correct anyway).

I have never seen any US or Canadian Land Grants in British or Irish records. I suspect they were granted locally, by some British authority in the US (on behalf of the King who certainly wasn?t involved in the actual administration of them). If there are any in Britain or Ireland, they are probably held in either the National Archives at Kew, London or the National Archives in Dublin. (Both have on-line catalogues so you could search for them there).

Thanks very much.

The migration of Thomas Farley to James City, Virginia from Gloucester, England is well documented. I mentioned only because I am searching for similar documentation for Thomas David Grogan.

As for Thomas David "Paddy" Grogan b ~1700 - d ~ 1730 m Katherine Malloy and Merle Grogan b ~1670 - d ~1735 m //Kenney// as father and grandfather respectively of Thomas David Grogan b. 1727 Kings County, Ireland d. 1790 North Carolina I am checking because I agree that it's seems unlikely without mentioning the source.

The researcher I don't think made up those names and then attached them to their family tree; instead I think they read the century incorrectly and then incorrectly attached them to Thomas David Grogan.

So since those two men and their wifes were born and died in Ireland I was hoping to find were those records were copied from. The copied family tree record for Thomas David "Paddy" Grogan even states he was born and died in Kings Co, Ireland. 

And for lack of a better approach I'd like to figure out how to obtain records that are mentioned on this web page:

http://www.araltas.com/features/grogan/

Examples of information cited on that web page:

a)  ~~1265 under which date the Four Masters and other annalists record the death of Maelbrighde ? Grug?in (or ? Grocan) of Elphin (Roscommon).

 i) Who are the Four Masters and other annalists? Where are these records to obtain copies of?

b)  ~~sixteenth and seventeenth centuries references to the name in our surviving records are plentiful

ii) Who or what are Tudor Fiants? How do I get these records? I know it must be some type of change in role from the erenaghs they were said to be before the Tudor dynasty in England to a similar role for the Tudor dynasty called fiant instead. Who can I get these records?

c) ~~Petty's "census" was compiled in 1659

iii) How can I get a copy of Petty's census?

d) I see no mention of records from the 18th century to the 19th century so no way to know what records to check Thomas David Grogan b 1727 in Kings County, Ireland still has existing records of his birth and of his family in Kings County, Ireland. 

iv) It be a guess but I'd guess Thomas David Grogan was born in the barony of Ballyboy, Kings County, Ireland in 1727. Is it possible for me to request a record for all of Kings County for Thomas David Grogan or must I request a record from each parish in Kings County, Ireland in the time frame? And how much will each record copy cost? And how much will each failed record search cost?

Thanks again very much.

I did find one record of a Shane O'Grogan and a Brian Molloy, among others, accused by Thomas Hodgen in a 1641 Disposition. This happened in Ballyboy, Kings County, Ireland.

http://1641.tcd.ie/deposition.php?depID=814182r113

So I am more curious now about the source of the record for Thomas David "Paddy" Grogan b ~ 1700 - d ~ 1730 m Katherine Malloy b ~1700 - d unknown.

 

Here?s a link to information about the Four Masters. It appears there?s a copy in the Royal Irish Academy and in Trinity College Dublin. They appear to be available on the CELT website.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_of_the_Four_Masters

Here?s a link that will tell you about the Tudor Fiants. I should think you would have to go to the National Archives or National Library in Dublin to get access to a copy. (Unless you feel like paying ?975 for the ones on sale on this link)

http://www.deburcararebooks.com/fiants.htm

Item regarding Petty?s census. The correct name was Pender?s census. I don?t know if it?s on-line but there?s copies in many genealogical libraries in Ireland eg PRONI in Belfast and the Linenhall Library, Belfast both have copies. I have used it and can tell you it doesn?t give all the residents names. The main landowners are named, and the top most common surnames in each barony are listed, but otherwise it just lists the numbers of residents of each townland, and indicates whether they were Irish (ie native born) or English (ie Scots, English or Welsh settlers).

Regarding searching for Thomas David Grogan?s birth in Kings, I assume he was RC. There?s about 20 RC parishes in the county. See:

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/offalyrc.htm

Transcripts are all on the rootsireland site (pay to view). Or you can view microfilm copies in the National Library in Dublin. (The originals are with the parish priests but letters requesting copies don?t always get a reply). However the problem you face is that there?s not a single parish in Offaly with baptism records that go back to 1727. So you won?t verify the date of birth from church records. This is a general feature of Irish research. There are a few counties where there are RC church records back to the 1700s and earlier (Wexford & Galway being examples) but for most of Ireland there?s very little prior to 1800. Kings/Offaly is no exception. It?s earliest records start in 1795.

Thanks very much.

I had just found the Wikipedia link and am downloading the 7 volumes. I tried to finder Pender's Census but couldn't except certain counties. 

At any rate it looks to me the most interesting thing will be the Annals of the Four Masters and visiting rootsireland site for information about the Grogans around Tullamore & Ballyboy. Hope they aren't too expensive.

I used to assume Roman Catholic but due to the Tudor Fiants information and that they once they moved to Virginia and North Carolina way back they always would found a Methodist church in a new settlement I am not sure anymore. That's one reason why I was curious about the Tudor Fiants. Did those duties require conversion to the Church of England? It seems the Methodist Church was an attempt to reform the Church of England at the beginning of the movement in the mid 18th century and that the Methodist Church did send missionaries to the colonies about the time or not long after the Thomas David Grogan emmigrated to Virginia I think. I think T. D. Grogan's 3 sons actually moved to North Carolina after being granted land and they seem to have been born in Virginia. They all lived near the border VA / NC. I will have to hope the NC & VA archives are digitized, searchable, and on-line.

The Tudor Fiants books you sent a link to I'll not spend $1500 for a verification a few lines of text. I've only visited Wexford and Dublin so maybe I'll go as you suggest with a $1500 plane ticket but only for a day as I want to visit Giant's Causeway and a few other places more interestingly than look through those books.

I managed to find only a christening in 1727 of William Grogan with parents of Thomas & Susannah Grogan so I'll leave it at the information I already have and try to get copies of the documents used from NC and VA.

I will contact the owners of the trees that mention Merle Grogan & //Kenney//, Thomas David Paddy Grogan & Catharine Molloy and ask where they got that information again if I can find with of them is the original researcher.

Turns out the partial data from the past research and written histories and the DNA test I took was as useful as existing government or church records. Researching before 1800 for most families doesn't get you far.

There is one other thing I noticed in past research was the incredible number of references to people with the last name of Grogan in Bermuda in the same time frame but I haven't ever researched that much. I thought it might be a port to exchange cargo at.

The Penal Laws restricted people who were not Church of Ireland from owning land, holidng judicial posts, and so on. However academics dispute how effectively they were policed as there are plenty of examples of Catholics who did own land. (The Earls of Antrim at one point owned a quarter of Cpounty Antrim and they were RC all through the Penal Law times).

Methodism took a lot longer to become established as a separate denomination in Ireland than was the case in England. In Ireland there was considerable resistance to separating from the Church of Ireland. It was 1818 before Methodists could conduct their own baptisms. However because of the continuing loyalty to the Church of Ireland and other factors, many Methodists continued to use the Church of Ireland for sacraments for many years after this date and it was 1871 before all Methodists routinely performed their own baptisms.

For marriages, the earliest ceremonies conducted by a Methodist Minister that I am aware of in Ireland, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So the shortage of Ministers contributed to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland.

So to summarise, you are unlikely to find any Methodist baptisms much before 1830. Few marriages before the 1840s and only a few for many years after that. If there are no Methodist records in the location you are interested in, I would search the Church of Ireland instead, as that?s the most likely place to find the relevant event.

Churhc of Ireland records are held in the RCB library in Dublin and, in some cases, by the parish. They do charge for access. ?12 an hour I seem to recall.

I am from James A - James H. - James W. - John S. - Henry Jr. - Henry Sr. - and if others are to believe Thomas David Grogan.

I have spent years researching from scratch because so many have confused cousins and other Grogans who shared names over the years. The one connection I have not yet been able to make is why everyone says that Thomas David was the father who brought his sons to Va and then SC?

The only connection is that they are all listed as neighbors in 1810, do you have more or are you following someone elses work? I am also trying to figure out how they have linked Thomas David to King's Co., Ireland. I am looking for proof of these assertions. Hoping you can help!

Thank you!

Attached Files

Well I have since this time rediscovered records from the 1700s from the Barbados and it seems a few Thomas Grogans lived there. Most of the Barbadan records are baptismal records but two Thomas Grogans and one D Grogan owned slaves.

So the records I've attached are in this order historically (I ignore the all but the 1732 baptismal records because they come after Grogan emmigration to North Carolina):

1. 14 Aug 1714 : Barbados - Lothneil Connell will is proved and Mr Connell's property is willed to a Thomas Grogan.

2. 26 Dec 1732 : Barbados  - Thomas Grogan, son of Richard & Eliza Grogan baptized.

3. 26 Mar 1834 : Barbados -  Thomas Grogan 'returns' 27 slaves.

4. 31 Mar 1834 : Barbados - Thomas E Grogan 'returns' 2 slaves - one recently inherited from D Grogan who died.

I don't know what is means to 'return slaves'. Where slaves government proberty and 'citizens' or maybe 'company owners' workers borrow slaves to do work with?

It's a very big coincidence that I found records of these Grogan in Barbados in the early 1700s preceding the recorded land grant given in 1759 to Bartholomew Grogan. I think their immigration from Ireland is probably connected to the after effects of Cromwell's forced conversion of some Irish and redistibution of land.

While I understand this does not prove that the North Carolina Grogans came from the Barbados those records are the only documentation I have found of any Grogans in the New World preceding 1759. 

The records of the land grants of well known in North Carolina and I've looked through them. So basically one must accept via oral tradition and since lost research that they immigrated directly from Co Offaly without documentary evidence or one accepts as more likely because there are records that they immigrated from Barbados (although it's still likely the Barbadan Grogans immigrated from Co Offaly if you were to guess where they left from).    

As far as all the records about Merle Grogan, Thomas Paddy Grogan and so on I originally asked about; I copied those from others' Ancestry.com tree and I am convinced those are wrong and simply a case of a tired blurry eyed researcher and wishful thinking.

I have uploaded all the records I have. Since I only saved records with Grogan in the surname I have no others.

​I also uploaded a historical short biography about George Croghan who I feel is likely closely related to the Barbadan and North Carolina Grogans although little is known of him too.

If you know of Barbados and ship passengers lists between the British Isles and Barbados and Barbados and North America please let me know.

Thanks.

IrishRover81 -

another modern NC Grogan researcher and myself have looked through the early work of Wendell Grogan and other earlier researchers (mostly pre-internet) and the other NC Grogan researcher summed up our research very nicely in a PDF file. This PDF files does much to elimate the confusion and stick with facts so Thomas David Grogan is in fact listed as a ? in that PDF although it's suspected it is Thomas David Grogan's widow Mary Grogan listed in the 1790 NC US Census.

It seems there was or might still be family Bibles or some other source of information that these early researchers used that we don't have.

I did pay a genealogist for 40 hours of research in NC and Virginia for research about a Thomas Grogan that was supposed to be Thomas David Grogan's Great Grandson (Thomas Pinkney Grogan, Jr known simply as Thomas Grogan in most records I descend from is Henry Grogan, Sr's Grandson) and so via that I've found out most of the information about Thomas David Grogan and Kings Co must come from a something besides NC and US government records.

If you are interested in that PDF I can privitize it and post it here.

By the way, I have done Y-DNA testing to 67 places and myself and 3 other people have proven that I descend from those Grogans in North Carolina, even though they have all different last names than Grogan we figured out it was NPEs involving Grogan Y-DNA (likely early frontier diseases caused adoptions of orphaned children was most common cause).

Attached Files

OK, I got permission to post her research. It really is the best I've seen yet and goes to some effort to explain and remedy conflicting claims I and others have seen regarding the Grogans of colonial North Carolina and South Carolina.

She also says that she believes Croghans were distant cousins with Grogana by the time both families emigrated to America. I know Croghans were supposed to have lived in Dublin and emigrated from there while Grogans were supposed to have come from County Offaly (not too far their origin around the Co Roscommon / Co Mayo border).

For those researching the Grogan line I have found at a couple of more bit of information but because the many records were burning in Irelad in 1916 it is unlikely someone will ever find the a archived document somewhere that states unequivically that the first Grogan families to come to colonial Carolina or Virgina came directly from Ireland or directly from Barbados.

1. There was a son of a John Grogan (surname change from Geogehan) that migrated from Co Antrim to Co Wexford that took over Johnstown Castle. John Grogan had a son named Lawrence whoimmigrated to Barbados and died unmarried without children. He was a musician. It's likely that Grogan line and the North Carolina Grogan line are not related in a genealogical time frame.

2. Although the passenger records don't exist anymore, if they ever did, it is known that the Cromwell government expelled about 50,000 Irish from Ireland where they served as unwilling indentured servants, aka as slaves. Some of the descendants of those slaves still live on various Caribean islands. Once freed, a few of them had descendants that became slave owners themselves as you can see in the Barbados records I attached above. Later generations of those that stayed in Barbados owned some slaves too, until abolition.

I don't know if the North Carolina Grogan line owned slaves before migrating from Barbados to North Carolina, if indeed they came from Barbados and not Kings Co as has been claimed from quite a long time now.

There was a known migration of some freed folk to North Carolina. This is where the North Carolina Grogan family likely originally migrated from. And if that is true, then I'm still not sure if that family was expelled from Kings Co (Co Offaly) to Barbados or expelled from the most likely place, Dublin to Barbados. I'd have to read about Cromwell to learn which was more likely or even possible.

So as best as I can determine, if you are researching the North Carolina line of Grogan those possibilities are the only one there is any historical evidence for. Question is as a genealogical researcher do you state those as possibilities or just stop at the 1759 land record of Bartholomew Grogan in North Carolina as if that was the beginning of history.

So which is the 'preferred' way of handing such a situation? List circumstanial evidence as unspoken statistical probalilities or treat everything as true or false and leave off any mention of Ireland or Barbados since direct evidence is lacking? By 1759 Grogan was a surname in all parts of the British Isles and in a few other places in the world too.

Thanks.

Re: Pender's /Petty's Census. See:  www.clanmaclochlainn.com/1659.cen.htm