Ashman and Nangel

Hi

CHURCH RECORDS (ROMAN CATHOLIC) Most Catholic records are held locally - One site which might be of use is - http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/ - where you can ‘browse’ an overview of available records per county. If you have any difficulty, you could try writing to the parish priest for possible assistance.

To help with the search for Sarah Ringland I will give the English archives site

The National Archives UK – genealogy search: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/

Another site you may find interesting for Irish parish records is

 the Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS) https://familysearch.org/

Go n?ir? an b?ther  leat,

Kind regards,                    

Genealogy Support

Ireland Reaching Out

Hello again wonderful and treasured volunteers! I can't tell you how thankful I am to have a site to simply get some feedback and direction once in a while. It is so important when a person begins to feel alone. And I do feel that I am entirely alone in searching for this family. I feel a great responsibility to leave the information for my descendants. Our ancestors deserve to be remembered! After all, we are where we are today because of their decisions good or bad, we stand on their shoulders....

I am really hoping I can get some direction on my Ashman family quest. I give some Canadian information here to put the Irish information I seek, into context. So forgive me if I am over-sharing.

Targets: My Irish ancestors, Thomas Ashman b 1792, his wife Mary Nangel b 1798, their son William b 1818/19, and potentially another son, Thomas born 1820/21. The county is definitely Sligo. For senior Thomas he was born in St. John's Parish, Sligo, Sligo. I have searched every database, griffiths records etc, in Sligo too, and can find nothing online except for some military records for Thomas and some Canadian records. I would love to find birth records or even a marriage record for these folks. Thomas is most likely Protestant.

Here is the background:

Thomas Ashman
Discharge papers
27th Regiment of Foot Infantry serving under "General The Earl of Moira"

It says he was born in the Parish of St. John, in or near the Town of Sligo in the County of Sligo.
"He was enlisted at the age of 17 years and served for the space of six years and 279 days, as well as in other Corps after the age of eighteen, according to the following statement, but in consequence of being Blind from Opthamalia (likely infection) contracted in ?" (can't read the script but it looks like it "could be" America. I need to find someone talented in reading blurry old script :) He was enlisted from 1809-1715. This is from a Chelsea pension record WO 97/459/20

This information puts his year of birth as approximately 1792. Through Wikipedia that regiment did participate in Quebec in the 1812 North American war. However, at the same time they were fighting all over France as well, and there may be a European location that resembles the script that my brain thinks says America.

I have not been able to find any further military records, such as his enlistment record which would give me more clues as to next of kin for example. I have found a couple of Muster roles that have a Thos Ashman and in a side note "as Ashton" serving in Quebec June 1814-Dec 1814. And then a Thos Ashman in Quebec in Dec 1814-Mar 1815 as "Invalided to England". And then again in a muster role 1815-1816 has a Thos. Ashman "sick at Quebec" and yet another after that dated Sep 1815-Dec 1815, Invalided to England.

The next record I can find that speaks about Thomas is from a local in Canada that cites in his notes he (Thomas) arrives in Canada in 1831 and that "Thomas Ashman brings a certificate that he owns Lot 1, Concession 1x (Eldon Township, Ontario, Canada)

I traced and found that Canadian land record and a land grant petition for the above-noted 100 acre Lot was applied for 18 Oct 1831 and granted on 28 Oct 1831. I determined this was the same Thomas Ashman as the noted military service and regiment was the same as his discharge.

I have not yet located a death date or record for Thomas, but he was surely dead by 1852 in Canada, as the same plot of land now belongs solely to his wife, the widow Mary Nangel Ashman, proprietor, also born in Ireland as her headstone indicates and says:
"Mary Nangel, wife of Thos.Ashman, died May 1, 1882 aged 83 yrs, 10 mos." Which puts her birth in Ireland in approx 1898, and although I do not have a birth record, she at least was also in Sligo, as she and Thomas were married there (no marriage record) and at least one confirmed son, William, was born in Sligo in 1818/19.

I have not yet exhausted records in Canada but, I am trying to find some record in Ireland of "something." I have not been able to find any ship record (Canada did not keep official ship records until 1865) from any source, and I've spent hours combing through.

So, if he was in Canada during the war of 1812, then he had to have travelled back to Ireland when he was discharged. However, I would feel better about believing that if I could determine with certainty the geographical area noted on his discharge. 

I also have Nangle ancestors from County Sligo. My g-g grandmother was Honoria Nangle, b. 1810, d. 1861 in Patch Grove, Grant County, Wisconsin, USA. Her husband was Michael Boyle, 1807-1882, birth place unknown. They arrived in the US in 1850 along with three of their children. Her father was Michael Nangle, Muhry, Toomour, Sligo, no dates or other information for him. Honoria had five siblings that I can document: Thomas Nangle, b ~1804, d. before 1858, probably died in Franklin, Massachusetts, wife Nancy Elizabeth Clancy; James Nangle, 1806-1858, Patch Grove, Grant, Wis.; Mary Nangle, b 1815-; Michael Nangle, 1816-1880Patch Grove, Grant, Wis; Hester Nangle, 1817-1897, Patch Grove, Grant, Wis, married to Michael Sunny, 1823 in Sligo - 1900, Patch Grove, Grant, Wis. 

Probate records for both James and Michael Nangle state that brother Thomas and father Michael both lived in Muhry, Toomour, Sligo. I assume that this was their original family home. James and Michael both died in Wisconsin without heirs and both left signifcant estates with both land and goods. Tithe applotment records include a Thomas Nangle in Sligo, probably the brother to Honoria Nangle. I have also found the Nangle surname on a list of flax growers in County Sligo. Does that mean the family owned the land the flax was grown on? 

Micki (Boyle) Sparr

Dear Vicki:

I have had a look on the Roots Ireland website for you and here are 3 baptism records that I have found:

1. Thomas Ashman baptised 11 May 1817  St. John's Union, Church of Ireland

Father:  Thomas Ashman;  Mother:  Jane Nangle

2.  Robert Ashman born 19 April 1822, baptised 28 April 1822  St. John's Union,Church of Ireland

Father:  ThomasAshman;  Mother:  Mary

3.  John Ashman born 13 August 1824, baptised 22 August 1824, St. John's union, Church of Ireland 

Father:  Thomas Ashman;  Mother:  Elizabeth 

I was not able to find any marriage records for these parents.  

The Church of Ireland registers for St. John's Cathedral in Sligo are held locally.  You may be able to contact them through this link:  http://sligocathedral.elphin.anglican.org/?page_id=8

The best of luck with your research.  Please consider creating an Ancestor profile for your family on our XO Chronicles section of the website.  The tab is located at the top right hand corner. 

If you have any further questions, please let us know.

Kind regards,

Jane

Thank you Jane for a couple of more resources. I had not checked Roots Ireland site for awhile. Just goes to show that if nothing shows up, wait a couple years and it might! Maybe some relation there...

And thanks for the other link. I am pretty sure they would have been Church of Ireland...BUT, we know what the word ASSuME really means! I shall check it out.

Jane did you have a chance to look at the attachment I put on here? I would really like another opinion of what it reads as the place that he contracted his blindness...its a bit smudgey.

And thanks!

Micki

Thanks too for your reply! I have noted those names in my genealogy notes and will see if a connection comes up. I made an error in the year of her birth. I said 1898 instead of 1798, which puts her a generation earlier than the folks you mention, but who knows...she may be a cousin or an aunt. 

In checking the population of the area, it seems the whole county only had about 35,000 in 1732, and there was a devastating cholera epidemic in 1832 which apparently killed more people in Sligo than anywhere else in Ireland. 1832 is when my people left.

My point being is that people with the last surnames there surely must be related at some level. But then again I wonder. I found Ashman's at the site Jane mentioned who were Catholic, and others who were Protestant in the same small Parish! I wonder...how does that happen?

Well, regardless, I hope our paths cross again if we find some commonality of our Nangles.

Hi Vicki:

Yes, I looked at the attachment, but it looks like "America"?  Does that make sense?  It's very difficult to read even with zooming in.

Jane

Thank you. That is what it looks like to me as well, and that would put some of the records I've found make sense, but I didn't want to assume. 

Thanks for the invitation to create an ancestor's profile. I shall take the time in the coming days to do just that.

Warm regards to you.

Micki,

Tithe Applotment Books listed occupiers of agricultural land over 1 acre in order to determine the amount each should pay in tithes to the Church of Ireland, the Established Church. 

Irish Flax Growers' List 1796. Also known as the Spinning Wheel List and Flax Growers' Bounty. This was an incentive to encourage the Irish linen industry. Spinning wheels were awarded based on number of acres planted with flax. A grower of an acre of flax was entitled to 4 spinning wheels. A grower of 5 acres of flax could be awarded a loom. 

Vicki;

I take it that you've done internet searches for your ancestor's regiment. Do repeat searches occasionally as other material and sites may become avaliable. There is probably a regimental museum. Regiments changed their names and amalgamated. There are websites and organisations for Napoleonic War research. Efforts increased for the Waterloo bicentenary 2015. The British Army was huge, conducting a long-lasting war on several continents. Irish troops made up a third of the army in early 19th century so it won't be surprising if there was more than 1 soldier with your ancestor's name. Catholics were allowed to enlist after relaxation of the Penal Laws towards the end of 18thC. Revisit the English National Archives online catalogue now and again in case something else turns up. The online catalogue includes items in local archives.

There's a naval website which lists Royal Navy ships and voyages of each. Some voyages would have been for the purpose of transporting troops.

Vagrant passes were issued (early 19thC) to discharged soldiers, enabling them to pass through England without being apprehended by parish constables mistaking them for beggars and "idle folk". Those for Irish soldiers include their departure port to Ireland. A few surviving vagrant passes are in county archives. 

                                                                                           *******

You asked why some bearers of the Ashman surname in a parish were Catholic and other Protestant. There were various reasons for changing from one denomination to the other. To begin to answer the question you would need to track each line back and work out who changed when and in which direction. You also need to know about the history of Ireland and Britain and Europe and of the Catholic, Church of Ireland, Church of England and Presbyterian Churches. Religion, history, politics, law and property are all bound up together.

Every Christian in Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales was Catholic before the Reformation of 16thC. The majority population in Ireland remained Catholic whereas in the other 3 countries they were reduced to a minority. The Penal Laws against Catholics in all 4 countries were a major factor influencing many to give up their faith or at least to seem to conform to the Established Church. If a Catholic family owned property the father and eldest son might convert so that the property could be passed on to the heir intact, instead of it being divided between all the children (after double tax had been paid) or it being claimed by another Protestant heir. Younger sons, wife and daughters might have remained R.C. A young Catholic man who aspired to a profession such as law or a career in army or politics, might have had to choose between his faith, career or going abroad. If he chose the last and left the British Isles without permission he was deemed to have voluntarily exiled himself and risked arrest if he was detected on his return. There were also restrictions on education and various other matters. These laws were gradually eased from the Catholic Relief Acts in late 18thC to the Catholic Emancipation Act 50 years later.

A branch of my family had an unusual surname which was confined to one region of an English county until 200 years ago. I've traced the family to the same small  locality of one parish in 1580 where they still occupied land almost 300 years later.  I have wills of 2 yeoman bearers of the name who farmed that land and who died 2 centuries ago, a decade apart. One was a stalwart of the Church of England, the other was Catholic. The man who was C. of E. bequeathed an estate 3 times the worth of the Catholic man. There were 6  men with that surname in the parish in 1641 when all men over 18 were asked to take a Protestation Oath to be loyal to the Protestant religion. 4 took the oath, 2 didn't. That mirrored the ratio of C.of E. to Catholic in the parish 100 years later. 

Another factor in changing religion may have been mixed-marriage. One spouse may have converted. Prior to 20th century, if parents were of different Christian denominations they may have brought up all children in the church of one parent  or compromised and perhaps had sons baptised in the father's church and daughters in the mother's. The Catholic Church published a decree on marriage around 1900 which required a Catholic to marry in a Catholic church and bring up children of the mariage as Catholics. Until then, a marriage of a Catholic in the Established Church of the state (Church of Ireland in Ireland, Church of England in England) was deemed valid by R.C. authorities.

Don't assume a marriage in a Church of Ireland 19thC or earlier is proof that both spouses were C. of I. It may be evidence only that one of the parties may have been C. of I. There are complexities to Irish marriage law of the time. 

Maggie May

Thank you very much! Lots to think about there. The most I knew before your message was that Protestants in the past had more rights than Catholics, but certainly, as you have suggested, it could be a complex mixture of reasons as well. It would seem strange to me that Ashmans in a small area would not be related to each other, so given your reasoning above suggests I am probably correct that they were related. Subsequent generations in Canada were loyal Orange, however, that doesn't mean it was always so. I am reminded of the story of the family whose tradition was to always trim the butt end of the turkey before cooking it on holidays. The granddaughter finally asked her mom "why do we do that? Her mother replied that was the way she grew up, it had always been done, so they asked Grandma, "why did you always cut off part of the turkey? Grandma replied, "because it was always too big for my pan." Moral of the story is sometimes we can have ways of thinking or being that are far different than the original truth.

Thanks again,

Vicki

Thank you Maggie May for all the wonderful background information. Even the information about the Ashman family (unrelated to me) describing how and why some families might be members of different churches - very interesting.  

Your reply to me about Nangle family members on Tithe Applotment and Flax Growers lists referred to "occupiers" of land. Does that mean they were the owners of the land? If not owners, how might they have accumulated significant assets? Unlike most of the Irish immigrants to American around 1840's, the two Nangle brothers who made their way to Wisconsin were able to acquire land, livestock and had cash they loaned to others. Are there land ownership records at the county or township levels that I might be able to search? 

Micki (Boyle) Sparr