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My great-grandfather, Patrick Hogan lived 1897-1973. As a young man, he fought as an ordnance man in the 3rd Tipperary Brigade. He also claimed to have fought in the Easter Rising, but I can't substantiate that. He went to prison and got out, but was being followed by the authorities in the hopes he would lead them to other fighting men. To avoid that, he got on a boat to Halifax, Nova Scotia and walked/hitchhiked his way westward. He entered the US at Detroit and walked/hitchhiked his way eastward to New York. He went back to Ireland in the 1930s for about two years (I think), and he joined the defense forces while he was there. He couldn't secure the military pension he tried for or find other work, so he returned to the US.

I have the belt buckle and the parade stick to his uniform from the 30s, and I'd love to know more about what kind of service he enlisted in (photos attached).

Thanks in advance for any assistance you may give.

Antaine

Monday 27th July 2020, 01:37PM

Attached Files

Message Board Replies

  • The "3rd Tipperary Brigade" is the name of an old IRA unit, so the timeframe would be the War of Independence, early 1919 to mid 1921. The unit was involved in the first attack of the War of Independence at Soloheadbeg , Co. Tipperary.

    Many men captured after the rising were sent to prisons or internment camps in Britain, Patrick could also have been sent to prison during the War of Independence or the later Civil War.

    The belt buckle and button are from the National Army/Irish Free State Army - so some time after the start of 1922.

    Many records from the Easter Rising and War of Independence are available on the Bureau of Military History website run by the Military Archives - including witness statements, documentation relating to pension claims etc.

    The Military Archives based in Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines, Dublin hold personnel files for people that served in the Army - you usually need to prove your connection to the person being researched, e.g. with birth, marriage, census records etc

    shanew147, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Tuesday 28th July 2020, 10:57AM
  • Yes, but he did two stints. One was sometimes between 1916 and 1920 (when he arrived in the US late in the year), but then he went back to Ireland in the 1930s, which is when these pieces are from. Judging from my grandfather's stories, I think it was maybe from 1934-1936, but it could have been a one or two or three year block from around that time.

    Sadly, I have no address for when he was in Ireland at that time, and he moved around so much in the US in that period, that I wasn't able to give them one that matched any pension requests he may have made from over here. The military archives wasn't able to help, as his name is so laughably common that without an address, it would be impossible to identify his record over someone else's.

    I'd be interested to know what type of uniform (and unit) the 1930s-era buckle and stick go to.

    Antaine

    Tuesday 28th July 2020, 12:03PM
  • If you google 'irish free state army uniform' you can see various photos and drawings on the uniforms from this era. You can sometimes find good photos of National Army uniforms, or good replicas, turning in auction catalogues. The Military Archives has a photo collection which might help

    I dont believe the buckle or stick help identifying a specific unit - I suspect you would need his Service records to establish that.

    btw - the stick seems to be referred to as a Swagger Stick

     

    shanew147, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘

    Tuesday 28th July 2020, 01:27PM
  • Hello,

    There was a prominent Hogan or Hogans in the BMH records. I hope you have searched on the site for his name?

    Although he may have been unsuccessful at the time, many people did get pensions but had to provide accounts of their activities, at least in part to substantiate their claims. It was a kind of truth amnesty?

    If he is the Hogan I have read about he will have been cited by others, the 3rd Brigade was amongst the most active and very large too?

    As for the later records I do not know where they would be and may be government proteceted by a 75yr rule. If you can prove your relationship and that he is dead, you may be able to presuade the authorities to release info?

    Good luck

    Shay

    Crowe One Name Study www.crowegenealogy.net

    Wednesday 11th November 2020, 05:52PM
  • Thanks. I tried to request records through the military itself, but I had to provide an address for him. I had a few NY addresses, but he moved around a bit in that period and may have had a different address in the city or he may have used the address he had in Ireland for those few years he went back there (which I have no idea what it was).

    I'll check out BMH.

    Antaine

    Wednesday 11th November 2020, 09:51PM
  • Hello,

    Just  some easy for me to say suggestions to help overcome the block. See if he has prison records too? They will be English records and possbly held in Kew, London but many Irish records are copied back to Ireland in recent times? Also, Kew is closed but they have made a lot of records free online for various subjects. Might be worth a long shot. these might help build a picture.

    Tipperary sent people to Dublin to help with the uprising and maybe especially him with his ordnance skills. he would have been sought to desrtoy the records office rathr than burn some papers.....I would have been with him at the time but now would be sitting at home with little to do! :)

    Lastly, I would try again about the issue with an address. You cn prove he is dead and a living relative. there are freedoms of information about and the use of any address you can prove he is at, whenever must help. If they still resist then get them to specifically tell you what they want and how that makes a difference. In other words force them to say why their hands are tied. there is a lot of politics arounf the uprising and many men refused to give testimony to the Commission in return for pensions because of that. However, he was allowed a stint in the Irish Army later so presumably they appreciated he was a patriot? Do you know if he served int eh short civil war that followed the Independance war? They may be coy abou that too despite it being one hundred years ago?

    No reply needed for this, just wish you good luck in getting where you need to go. Please post if you are successful as this thread will be read by others in time?

    Best wishes,

    Shay

    Crowe One Name Study www.crowegenealogy.net

    Friday 13th November 2020, 12:45PM