Catherine McGuinness/Mcguiness

Hi John,

Thank you very much for your message. I hope that someone with information makes a connection with you and helps you to further your research.

Unfortunately, it may be difficult to find information yourself without a more specific place of origin. Most Irish record sources- church records, land records, census records- are based on specific locations. Until you know a specific location within Ireland, preferably a parish or placename, it may be difficult to do anything more with these records.

Do you have any documentation pertaining to the family that mentions any place names in Armagh at all? This can include wills, marriage/death records,census records, letters, diary entries etc.

Have you tried searching for records of her and her family at:

www.familysearch.org has a huge database of genealogical records including some church records for Ireland.

www.rootsireland.ie have a large collection of Irish Church records, however you have to pay to use this site.

Have you tried looking into her emigration? Sometimes more infomation can be found at the port of arrival rather than that of departure. You may be lucky and find a place name here. The Public Record Office of Victoria has good online databases of settlers at www.prov.vic.gov.au Otherwise, other records may be found in the Colonial Office Papers of the UK National Archives, class reference CO 201. This class contains a wide variety of records, including petitions for assisted passages, emigrants' lists, records of emigrants on board ship, petitions from settlers for financial assistance and much more.

I did a quick search for her father Thomas in Griffith?s Valuation. This is a property valuation survey carried out 1848-64. Although it doesn?t offer any genealogical information it can sometimes be used to tie a person to a specific place. Results from 4 parishe came back:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&Submit.x=58&Submit.y=10&Submit=Submit&familyname=McGuinness&firstname=Thomas&baronyname=&countyname=ARMAGH&unionname=&parishname=

Some other websites that you may find useful are:

The National Archives of Ireland http://www.nationalarchives.ie/genealogy1/genealogy-records/introduction/

The National Library of Ireland http://www.nli.ie/en/family-history-introduction.aspx

The National Archives UK ? genealogy search: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/

The Public Records Office of Northern Ireland http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/family_history.htm

Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/index.htm

Family Search: www.familysearch.org

Genealogy Links: http://www.genealogylinks.net/uk/ireland/armagh/index.html

Armagh Ancestry: http://armagh.rootsireland.ie/generic.php?filename=sources.tpl

Remember to post any new information that you find here. The more information you post, the more likely it is that one of our volunteers will be able to advise or assist you. Also include information concerning which sources you may have already used so others may further your search.

Kind regards,

Genealogy Support

Dear Emma,

Thankyou for your prompt reply.  I will follow all the links you have given me in the next few days.  Concerning Catherine, unfortunately her marriage certificate and death notice only refer to County Armagh and that she came to Australia about 1877 and was born about 1859/1860.  I picked up from a notice in the paper at the time of her marriage that she was "the youngest daughter of Thomas McGuinness".  I do note that she was married by Reverend Patrick Joseph McGuinness.  Maybe he was a relation?

John Maclurcan 

Dear Emma,

I have had a breakthrough. I have now learnt that Catherine is the youngest daughter of Thomas Maginness of Ummerinvore and Ann M'Guinness.  Ann died on the 21st Jule, 1874, aged 64 years.

Can you help me further now,

John Maclurcan

Dear John

I have been checking Emma's email over the past few weeks as she finished working with us in February. With the information you now have, you should be able to find a record on www.rootsireland.ie (a subscription site) or www.familysearch.org as Emma suggested. You may also be able to find out further information about Thomas and Ann from their marriage record. Ann's pre-mariage name would help with a search for her father in the Tithe and Griffith's Valuation records.

I hope this helps. Best wishes

Clare Doyle

Genealogy Support.

Thanks Clare.  I had already checked those sites to no avail and was hoping your team could help me.  Oh well.

I will pass your query to a volunteer in Antrim, although it is not her area she may be able to assist.

Regards

Clare

Genealogy Support

John,

Ummerinvore is a townland in the civil parish of Newtownhamilton, and the RC parish of Creggan Lower. It consists of 210 acres. The junction of the modern Glenmore Rd and Polkone Rds marks the middle of it. That?s about 5 miles south of Newtownhamilton.

I looked in Griffiths Valuation for 1864 but there?s no sign of a Maginnis/McGuinness household in that townland. There are 20 households listed. The absence of your family doesn?t necessarily mean they weren?t there. Only heads of household are listed and so in a multiple occupancy property other families will be omitted. Servants and others living in someone else?s home would likewise be omitted. Finally small cabins of very low value (such as agricultural labourers and weavers would occupy) were sometimes ignored too.

You can use the maps on Griffiths to see where Ummerinvore is located. Use the slider bar in the top right hand corner of the screen to overlay a modern map on the contemporaneous map.

 http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

I looked at the follow on records to Griffiths, the revaluation records for the 1870s but there?s no sign of Maginnis household there then either.

Here?s the occupants of Ummerinvore in the 1901 census (no Maginnis households):

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Dorsey/Umervino…

Registration of births, deaths and RC marriages only started in 1864. Consequently you won?t get a marriage certificate for Thomas & Ann, or birth certificates for their children. You may be able to find their baptisms, provided they were born after 1845 in Creggan Lower, as that?s when the parish records start. Likewise if the marriage took place there after 1845 you may find it, but not if it took place before that.

The parish records for Creggan Lower do not appear to be on-line anywhere so far as I can tell. There are copies in the National Library in Dublin and in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. In both cases a personal visit is required to look them up.

A death in Ummerinvore would be registered in the statutory records in Castleblaney. I searched for Ann McGuinness?s death but found none registered in Castleblaney. So that suggests the family were no longer living there when she died (or the date is wrong). The nearest possible match was for an Ann McGuiness who died on 30.1.1878 aged 72. That was registered in Armagh city. You can have a look at that death on-line on the GRONI website. It should cost you ?2.  https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

There was also a death for an Ann Maguiness registered in Clones 1874, aged 67. You cannot view that on-line (only certificates for what is now Northern Ireland are viewable on-line) but you can order a copy of that from GRO Roscommon, if you felt it worthwhile. I can?t see any other deaths of someone of that name in that area, who would have been of the right age.

I did find this probate file for Owen McGuinness who died intestate in 1914:

Administration of the Estate of Owen McGuiness late of Ummerinvore County Armagh Farmer who died 10 December 1914 granted at Armagh to Annie Canning Married Woman

The file itself is not on-line but should be held by PRONI, in Belfast. This is Owen in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Dorsy/Ummerinvore/334274/

He obviously wasn?t residing in Ummerinvore in 1901 but I don?t know where he actually was. That?s a mystery. I can?t find him in the 1901 census. (He may have been out of Ireland of course). The revision records don?t list him and so it?s difficult to say when he acquired that farm. The probate file should explain Annie Canning?s relationship to him. And will have her address.

I?d say your next step is to visit (or get someone else to visit) either the National Library or PRONI to look up the RC parish records for Catherine?s baptism and that of any siblings.

Elwyn

Thanks Elwyn for your efforts.   I have attached the "Funeral Card" which prompted the enquiry.

On reflection, I realise that it is not clear if Thomas Maginness was alive or dead when Ann died. There must be some reason why her surname is different spelling to her husband's. Maybe he died much earlier and she "changed" the surname.  Also, if Ann was Catherine's mother and Catherine was born about 1859, the card indicates that Ann was 49 when Catherine was born which is possible but ....  Catherine's marriage notice in 1882 in Australia states she was "the youngest daughter of Thomas McGuinness, Ireland" so I know she had at least one elder sister.  Finally, if after Ann died, Catherine was an orphan, then that might indicate why she headed down under about 1877/78.  She was married by a Reverend P.J. McGuinness who may well have been a relation.

I am based in Sydney, Australia, so it is not possible to visit the sites you have mentioned but I am planning to come to Ireland next year and will certainly do so then if nothing else turns up in the meantime.

Thanks again

John

John,

If you could find Ann?s death certificate it would tell you whether her husband was still alive then or not. Unfortunately I can?t locate it. There were no female M?Guinness/Maginnis deaths registered in Castleblaney in 1874 at all. It?s always possible the death wasn?t registered. That did happen.

Don?t know why the name is spelled differently between Thomas & Ann. Spelling varies all the time in Ireland, so no surprises there, but you would generally expect to see the same spelling for a husband and wife, if recorded at the same time on the same document.

I searched for the death of Thomas McGuinness 1864 ? 1901 in Castleblaney. There was just one of the right age. He died 1867 (Castleblaney 1867 Volume 6, page 299). His estimated year of birth was 1817. You could try ordering that to see if it fits.

You can order a photocopy of the certificate from GRO Roscommon for ?4.  http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx

You have to download and print off the form. Then either post or fax it back to them. You can?t e-mail it to them. However if you want them to e-mail the cert to back to you, they will do that, so tick the relevant box.

Put the reference details on the form (anywhere). Don?t worry about leaving some boxes blank. As long as GRO have the location, name(s), year, quarter (where there is one), volume and page number they should find it.

Elwyn

Thanks Elwyn. Best of luck with your search John

Clare

Genealogy Support

Dear Clare, I have now learnt that Ann McGuinnes named on the holy card is Ann McCreesh and her grave is in the cemetery of St Michael's Roman Catholic Church in Newtonhamilton. Does this prompt a new angle of investigation? If so, I would like to find out when her husband Thomas died. I believe he was still alive when she died in 1874. There seems to have been many McCreesh's in the district of Ummerinvore and the nearby Tullyogallaghan at the time. John

Looking for family or records o Edward born 1848(father) Peter born 1869(son) who were born in Keady area of Armagh, both migrating to Durham area UK, not sure when. Edward was married to Elizabeth Grimley MAY 1867 in the Roman Catholic Church Keady I believe.

Looking for family or records o Edward born 1848(father) Peter born 1869(son) who were born in Keady area of Armagh, both migrating to Durham area UK, not sure when. Edward was married to Elizabeth Grimley MAY 1867 in the Roman Catholic Church Keady I believe.

Elizabeth Grimley’s marriage to Edward McGuiness was on 9th May 1867, registered in Armagh. That should give you the couples townlands (addresses) and other information to research further. You can view the original civil certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

Thanks for your help Elwyn, is there anyway to tell when they migrated to Durham UK?, I am unable to find a death record for Elizabeth in the UK, could it be she died in Ireland?.

No there are no records of movements between Armagh and Durham. It was, and still is, a short domestic journey. No records have ever been kept of travel between Ireland and Britain. All you can do is analyse when a person or family disappears from Ireland and then arrives in Britain. Is the family in the 1871 English census for example?

I looked at the birth record for Peter (27.8.1869 at Drumgreenagh). I checked the Valuation revision records for that townland (on the PRONI site) to see if they are listed there, and if so when they were deleted. They are not listed there, but I did see a John Grimley farming there (plot 34a, a 9 acre farm). That may have been Elizabeth’s father (the 1867 marriage certificate should tell you), and so Edward & Elizabeth may have been lodging there. That would explain why they don’t appear in those records, but also means we don’t know when they left. Edward was a flax scutcher in 1869, so that was a trade in the linen making process.

You can search for Elizabeth’s death in Ireland on the irishgenealogy site. However I suspect that Elizabeth’s death probably eludes you because of the way it was spelled.  When was she last known to be alive, and where was she living then? 

Hi

Purchased some credis did a search, found Edward Mcguiness marriage to Elizabeth Grimley on 09/05/1867, however was unable to locate either ones birth. Ages were listed as full so assumed ages were between 18-21, in 1867, Edward address was listed as Belfast, Elizabeth was Drumgreenah, Keady, Armagh, they were Roman Catholics.

I would appreciate any help offered, where and when to look, did a five year search either side. although came up with enter date after 1864, so maybe those records not available?.

Reegards Roger Ferguson

Roger,

Full, in the context of a marriage, means aged 21 and over.  So if you were full age, you could marry without parental consent. (That was lowered to 18 in the 1960s). I have seen marriage certificates where couples declared they were full age when they weren’t, so you can never be too certain about these things.

Statutory birth registration only started in Ireland in 1864 (in contrast to 1837 in England). So you won’t get birth certificates for either Edward or Elizabeth. You might find their baptisms in church records.

The marriage certificate tells you that Elizabeth came from Drumgreenagh, so that ties in with Peter’s birth certificate there in 1969. The couple evidently stayed with her relatives after they married.

Drumgreenagh is in the RC parish of Derrynoose. It has baptism records from 1835 but with a gap between 1837 and 1846. Marriages start in 1846 and there are burials for the years 1846 – 1851 only. (Most RC parishes didn’t keep burial records at all).

The RC parish records are on-line free on the National Library site:

https://www.nli.ie/en/family-history-introduction.aspx

I can only see 2 Eliza Grimley baptisms in the records. One was on 4.11.1852 to Mick Grimly & Eliza Donnelly, and the other was an Eliza Jane in October 1849 to Barney Grimley & Mary Jonston.  We can rule out the first because Eliza would only have been 14 when she married. The second would have been 17 so still well under full age.  If the Eliza who married Edward was full age, then she was probably born before 1846 and so in the period when the baptism records are missing. So you may not get her baptism at all. You should know her father’s name from her civil marriage certificate.

Edward may not necessarily be from the same parish, but he might be. The marriage certificate may give his address as Belfast but he could still come from the area. Again you should have his father’s name from the marriage certificate. You can search for that birth on the nli site and on Ancestry.

I looked at the Valuation Revision records for Drumgreenagh on the PRONI site and I see John Grimley’s name against the property there until 1876 when he is replaced by John Brown. It’s possible that John died around that time. I see a possible death on 14.11.1874, aged 75, registered in Armagh. You might want to look at that (on the GRONI site) to see if it’s the Drumgreenagh Grimley.

Many, Many thanks for that comprehensive reply, it gives me much to work with.

Thankyou Regards Roger