Relatives of John Jordan, born 1872 Enniscorthy

It appears that John Jordan was actually born in 1874 - maybe he bumped his age up a little for the marriage ?

Location and Father's name & occupation and match the details given on John's marriage.

By 1901 John and Mary seem to have moved to Wexford town and by 1911 to just outside the town. John's occupation on both is shown as Blacksmith (Richard his father is shown as a Labourer on birth and marriage certs).

The 1911 census shows that John and Mary had 6 children but only four living at that time. Did John & Mary and all their children leave for Canada ?

p.s. I located two additional children - Lizzie born 11th August 1912 and one of the children that did not survive Patrick - born 4th July 1909 and died 8th July the same year.   At the time of Patrick's birth and death the family were living at the Faythe, which is to the south of Wexford Town.

Yes, this is the correct John and Mary because I know he was a blacksmith in Ireland.  It is quite possible he was born in 1974. Seems like we have a few dates for him.  It is my understanding that John came to Canada some time in 1911 to find a homestead and Mary and the 5 kids came in 1912.  They settled in the Province of Alberta. My father (Daniel) was the youngest and he was born October 3, 1920.  Two other kids were born in Alberta as well, Patricia (Rita) and Marie (May).  You mention a Lizzie born in 1912.  I wonder if that is who we call Lily.  She was a babe in arms when they moved to Canada so I am thinking that was her.  Don't recall ever hearing anything about a Patrick.

Where is Wexford town in relation to Enniscorthy?  I found something about them living in Maudlintown at one point.  Is that town still around and is it near Enniscorthy? 

How hard is it to get around in Enniscorthy?  Could we walk everywhere or do we need to rent a car?  Are there taxis we could use?  

My Grandmother lived on what was called Cherry Orchard.  Is that still there?  

Is there any way we could find out if there are still any relatives living in the area?

Thank you so much for what you have found out.  I really appreciate you taking the time to find the information.  Hoping to hear from you again soon.

Sue

Starting with the locations - there are several places named Maudlintown in Co. Wexford, but the one mentioned is a townland, which are the smallest subdivision of land, and it's located on the southern outskirts of Wexford town (c1840 OSI map), Maudlinstown is also the name of the civil parish which includes this townland. Wexford town is the county town for County Wexford, some of the other major towns in the county being New Ross, Enniscorthy and Gorey. Wexford town is on the south east coast, and Enniscorthy is about 25km (~15 miles) to the north and inland on the river Slaney which runs through the town of Enniscorthy and exits to the sea at Wexford town. See Wexford to Enniscorthy directions on Google maps.

'Cherry Orchard, Enniscorthy' is given as places of residence for both the bride and groom on their marriage record in 1895 , this is a townland on the western outskirts of Enniscorthy - see c1890 OSI map.

Since all your Jordan / Martin family seems to have left you would have to work backwards and search for details of their births and/or baptisms and then try to locate any possible siblings using parents names, father's occupation, location etc, and see if it's possible to trace these forward to see if any remained in the area.

John's births cert. gives his place of birth and residence of his parents as 'Pig Market Hill', presumably Enniscorthy and this I believe is located in the town, close to the pig-market and St Aiden's Cathedral, will see if I can locate a more exact location for this. Given the fact that John's father Richard is a labourer, means he and his family could have moved around. I'll also check for possible births for Mary, her father is given on the civil marriage record as John Martin, a Farmer.

The 1901 census shows a number of people with the surnames Martin and Jordan in and around the town, including a household with a Richard and Kate Jordan at Ross Road in the town that could be John's immediate family, John is a labourer which matches the marriage and birth records for John and Kate is shown as 'cannot read', which could fit with making her mark when she was informant on John's birth registration - I'll try to trace some of the children shown on the census to see if this Catherine might be Kate Daley, John's mother. The 1901 census also shows a John Martin, farmer in Moneyheer townland near Enniscorthy - possibly Kate's family ? I'll see if there may have been a Catherine or Kate born to this family...  it looks like these John Martin and Richard Jordan may have died between 1901 and 1911 - no immediate sign of them on a 1911 census search - I can see Kate Jordan with one of the sons at Patrick St. Enniscorthy
 

I was able to confirm some connections and found some further details on your Enniscorthy families -

There's a likely marriage on the BMD Index for John parents, Richard Jordan and Catherine/Kate Daley in Enniscorthy in 1871 (refs. are  Volume  9 Page    349), so given that your John was born 1874 gives a couple of years where there could have been older children. I found one older sister Eliza/Elizabeth born 11th Jan 1872, Hagan's Lane, Enniscorthy, parents Richard Jordan labourer, and Catherine Daley.  There's a marriage for Eliza Jordan in Enniscorthy to a Michael Cullen in 1900, residences for both on the marriage recorded as Enniscorthy, Michael was a labourer, and Eliza a servant, father's names Michael Cullen and Richard Jordan both labourers.

Michael and Eliza had at least three sons - Michael jnr. born c1901, Richard born 12 July 1902 and James born 16th July 1904. Eliza died on the 24 June 1907 from Phisthis (TB), but her sons and any of their descendants would be your relatives.. Census returns for the Cullen/Jordan family - 1901 & 1911

I was able to confirm that the Jordan couple living at Ross Road on the 1901 census are 'your' Jordan family, i.e. John parents and siblings, by tracking birth records and cross matching the names and sequence to the census.

Margaret Jordan,  29th June 1876, Edward's Lane
Patrick Jordan, 20th Dec 1878, Ross Road Enniscorthy
Michael Jordan (twin), 17th Dec 1883, Edward's Lane Enniscorthy
Ellen Jordan (twin), 17th Dec 1883, pob/res Edward's Lane Enniscorthy
Daniel Jordan 3rd Oct 1888, Ross Road Enniscorthy

parents Richard Jordan (labourer) & Kate Daley/Daly for all these births

Daniel is the only child still at home in 1911 with his mother, and he married a Bridget Thorpe on the 1st July 1918, Enniscorthy (RC) Cathedral. The groom's residence is Redmond Street, occupation Painter, and father Richard Jordan deceased, bride's residence Shannon Hill, father John Thorpe labourer. Any children they had are too recent for the GRO/IrishGenealogy website which has a cut-off for births around 1916, but the FamilySearch index (which includes maiden surnames in the index from about 1927) shows some possible matches based on the combination of surname that are likely children that would be your relations. You could order research certs from the GRO to confirm details of these, or collect copies if you are in Dublin.

I found an additional child born in Enniscorthy - a Richard Jordan born 5th April 1899 Ross Road - parents John Jordan and Mary Martin, unfortunately this Richard died soon after birth on the 24th April. John and Mary must have left for Wexford town soon after this..

I will have a look at Mary Martin's side and will post any details I find.

Thank you very much for this information.  I believe you have the right family because I think my grandfather, John, and his brother Daniel both joined the military for a short period of time (from what I have been able to discover).  As you have identified a "Daniel" as a sibling this would make sense this is the right family.  It is interesting to note the names of John's siblings because my grandparents named some of their children the same such as Margaret, Patrick (who you discovered died a few days after birth), Michael and Daniel (my father).  Now to show my inexperience here what are "research certs" and what is the GRO.  If you can point me in the right direction I will follow up with the GRO to get more details.  

Thank you so much for all this information.

Sue

GRO is the General Register Office, which is in charge of recording civil birth marriage and death records. Research certs. are photocopies of the civil register, like the images on the IrishGenealogy website has for the earlier records. These contain the all the information on the registration of birth, marriage or death but a far cheaper at four Euro (@ 5 or 6 CAN Dollars) than official certs., like those required for passports etc.

The IrishGenealogy page has notes on how to order these - see : this link (option 1 for research certs). In summary you download the form mentioned on the page, print this out and enter the details of the certs your require - the details required are as follows :

Type of record - Birth/Marriage or Death
Name of the person
In Column 4 fill in the  references from the Index record - year/quarter/volume and page. These details are included on the FamilySearch BMD index. e.g. the references for the first of the possible births on the Jordan/Thorpe link I posted above are 1935 / Apr-June / volume 4 / Page 386

(the Group ID in Column 3 - is only used on certain older records - certs for most of these can be viewed free on the GRO/IrishGenealogy website)

Once you have filled in the form, with your credit card details etc., you mail or Fax it to the GRO, the address is on the form. They can either post or email the research certs to you. If you are in Dublin City you can order and collect certs at the GRO Research room on Werburgh street, and also research more recent index books between 1916 and 1927 to check for more possible matches for births.

Ok.  Thanks for the info.  I will downlload and complete the form.

Sue

Mary's line is proving to be a little more difficult - several possible Martin families with a child named Mary around the right time, but believe I've found a good lead at last...

One of the witnesses on Mary's marriage to John Jordan is a Sarah Martin, and being the same surname as the bride thought  she might possibly be a sister, if not a cousin...  A search for Sara(h) Martin/Marten births in Enniscorthy around the right showed far fewer results than my previous searches for Mary, and just one was a match by father's name John, and he was also shown as a farmer matching the details on Mary marriage record, and even better the place of birth for Sarah and residence for this Martin family is the familiar 'Cherry Orchard'.

see : Birth of Sarah Martin 17th May 1866

Parents' names : John Martin & Margaret Cowman
Father's occupation farmer, and the informant for the birth was Sarah's mother Margaret
The full place of birth / residence is shown as : Cherry Orchard, Parish of St. Marys. The bulk of Enniscorthy town is on the western side of the River Slaney and this is St. Mary's, the remainder of the town to the east of the river is Templeshannon.

Following on from this I rechecked for a civil birth record for a Mary Martin with these parents but nothing shows up.. so switched to Enniscorthy Catholic Parish baptism records in case her birth was not civilly registered, and found her baptism noted on the 19th October 1875 (NLI RC Register Images - see towards the end of the right hand page). Parents John Martin & Margaret Cowman, and godparents William Martin and Catherine Kehoe (a variant of Keogh)

A quick scan of the baptism records for the parish shows possible children to John Martin and Margaret Cowman between about 1856 and 1875 - looks like Mary may have been the youngest in the family.
 

Thank you so much.  That is a great start for me.  

Sue

GREETINGS COUSIN!

I THINK WE MAY BE 3RD COUSINS:

• John Martin abt.1836-1903 and Margaret Cowman abt.1827-? were my 2nd great grandparents (I have conflicting records of birth years).  I believe they married in 1856 in County Carlow and definitely lived in Cherry Orchard, Enniscorthy.  John Martin's father's name was William Martin.  Margaret Cowman's father was John Cowman (he is listed in Griffith's Valuation as lessee at Cherry Orchard) though I do not know either of their mother's names.  The records I have of their children are as follows: 

CHILDREN OF JOHN MARTIN JR. AND MARGARET COWMAN (still verifying):

1. Esther Martin 1856
2. Mary Eliza Martin 1858
3. John Martin 1864
4. Sarah Martin 1866 (who I believe married a man with the surname Dodd and was at one point living in Fort Commons, Currytown, Co. Wexford.  She was listed as a sister at the above location on my great grandmother Margaret Martin's ship's manifest when she emigrated to America.  I hope this information helps you out.)
5. Margaret Martin (my great grandmother) 1868-1959
6. Joseph Martin 1869
7. Mary Jane Martin 1871
8. Elizabeth Martin 1873-1953 (different documents show both Elizabeth Cowman and Johanna Wade as mother)
9. Mary Martin 1875 (I "think" your direct ancestor?)
10. Mary Ann Martin b. ?
11. William Martin 1878 (Johanna Wade mother)
12. There may possibly be a Mildred Martin as well

• Several of the children emigrated to the United States and settled in Washington state, California, Illinois and New York.  My notes say that Joe and Sarah Martin (Dodd) remained in Ireland.

THE JORDAN FAMILY/CANADA CONNECTION:

• The surname "Jordan" sounds vaguely familiar to me, but I have no records of it in my family tree.  I do know that some of the family did emigrate to Canada because my mother visited the Martin branch of the family on a farm in Canada as a child.  She told me that they lived in Busby, Canada which is in Alberta, where you said John and Mary Jordan were.  My Mom would have visited as a child so possibly in the late 1920's-1930's.  I did some research on John Jordan on ancestry.com using the data you provided and found a 1921 Canadian census record which shows your John Jordan, living with family in no other than the "Village of Busby, Alberta, Canada"!!!!!  My Mom may have visited John and Mary Jordan as the timeframe is right!  
• Canadian Voter's Register records show a John Jordan in Alberta Canada in 1935 as a farmer.  One more thing that matches as my Mom said they visited and stayed on a farm in Busby.  My Mom would have been 10 years old in 1935 so it all fits!  I have a funny story about a chicken on the farm that she told me that I'd like to share with you.  In 1935 it could be John Jordan Sr.'s farm or John Joseph Jordan Jr.'s, his son born 1903 according to census records.
• Is it possible that John Martin Sr. and Mary Martin Jordan moved to Illinois, USA in later years? I found a John and Mary E Jordan in 1930 and 1940 census records with a daughter named "Longenia" (I can't really make it out the handwriting on the census records are bad) who was 16 in 1930 and they lived in Cherry Valley, Winnebago, Illinois.  The other children may have been grown.  That is only about an hour and a half from where my Mom's family lived in the Chicago, Illinois area and it was not unusual for family to live close to family.  My great grandmother Margaret Martin who would have been Mary Jordan's sister was still alive and living near Chicago then with her daughter's (my grandparent's) family.  Or perhaps they moved to Illinois and their children still lived in Busby, Canada?  Just an idea...  
• There are also Canadian WWI records on John Jordan online which you may already have found.  
• The only problem is that my research is coming up with different data than the other kind researcher who has been assisting you.  I found a record showing John Jordan's (born abt. 1872) parents were Patrick Jordan and Ellen Furlong Jordan.  Also, you said your father was Daniel born in 1920 and the Daniel found by the other researcher was born in 1888 which may have been a Daniel of the previous generation.  
• I found children of John Jordan born abt 1872/Mary E Martin born abt. 1875 as:

1. Margaret
2. John
3. Kathleen
4. Michael 
5. possibly a 5th daughter born in Canada, "Longenia"? can't read handwriting on record very well  

• I may be on the wrong track, but so much of what I've found matches up with what I know about the John Martin/Margaret Cowman Cherry Orchard family that we clearly share.

HOW ARE WE CONNECTED/CHERRY ORCHARD:

• Sue, may I ask who your Grandmother was who lived at Cherry Orchard? My 2nd great-grandparents and my great-grandmother who were Martin's living at Cherry Orchard combined with the corresponding information of my Mom visiting Martin's in Busby, Alberta, Canada among many other facts seems to confirm that we're related.  My Aunt visited Cherry Orchard but that was around the 1950's.  It was still there at that time and she had a photo of the family home.  I may have one too, but I'll have to check.  I have some more items, stories, photos and info. you may be interested in as well and perhaps we could share information about the Martin family.  I would be very interested in connecting with any descendants of the Martin/Cowman line.  I tried to estimate how we're related based upon the information you provided and think we could be 3rd cousins.

ANCESTORS/SOME POTENTIAL CONFUSION WITH JOHN MARTIN/MARGARET COWMAN AND "POSSIBLE" OTHER WIFE THAT MAY AFFECT LIST OF CHILDREN ABOVE:

• I have however had a point of confusion over the years regarding John Martin's marriage/children.  For instance, I sent away for the registered birth and death certificates for Elizabeth Martin and each shows her with a different mother.  Her death certificate states that her mother was Elizabeth Cowan (Cowman), however, according to the civil birth registration her mother was Johanna Martin, formerly Johanna Wade.  Information registered by mother, Johanna Wade.
• There are several birth records for children with duplicate names (some similar birth years, some not) between John Martin and Johanna Wade in Enniscorthy, Co. Wexford and a John Martin did marry a Johanna Wade in 1868 but there are children born before and after that marriage date that are registered as born to Elizabeth Cowman as well as Johanna Wade so it doesn't seem to gel. The records for births of John Martin/Margaret Cowman and John Martin/Johanna Wade are both in Enniscorthy, diocese of Ferns making it even more confusing.  It doesn't make things easier when my great grandmother told my Mom that records had been lost and she didn't know her true birth year.  She often used different birth years on different docments and my Mom thought it was because she didn't want anyone to know her true age!  
• I did not list all of the Martin children born to John Martin and Johanna Wade above, but did include Elizabeth Martin, who I am unsure of and explained above (though I believe she was Elizabeth Cowman's child) and was my Mom's "Aunt Betty".  The other is William Martin whose record shows he was born to John Martin and Johanna Wade.  My mother knew and visited William Martin who lived in Washington state and I have the names of his 3 children that she knew of.  He was part of this Martin family.  If anyone has any ideas on how to figure this out I'd sure be open to hearing them.  I can provide a list of records showing children born to John Martin and Johanna Wade if that helps.
• Note:  Even though I have some confusion about the offspring of John Martin/Margaret Cowman vs. John Martin/Johanna Wade, I am 100% certain that Margaret COWMAN is my 2nd great grandmother.  My Aunt had a family bible with Margaret Cowman's name inscribed in it.  Unfortunately when my Aunt passed away, the family items she had remained with her husband who then also passed away and the family items are most likely lost forever.  I am beginning to believe that Johanna Wade may have coincidentally been married to another John Martin and not be part of our family at all, but will keep working on it.

HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU!:

• Are you a member of ancestry.com?  There are quite a few records available on the Martins many complete with images of the original handwritten records including civil birth, baptism, marriage and death records.  
• I just ran across this Ireland XO website quite by accident using family names as search terms and was completely surprised to find this webpage.  Sorry this is such a long note, but in all the years I've worked on family history I've never run across another Martin ancestor!  I hope you find the information that I've posted helpful and I look forward to your response!

Christine

Hi Christine. Yes, we are definitely cousins based on your information.  Nice to meet you.

My Grandparents (John Jordan and Mary Martin) emigrated to Canada in 1912 and landed in Alberta.  They first lived in Cardiff, then Fawn Lake, then Busby.  They must have been living in Busby when your mother visited.  From what I gather they didn't have close contact with the Martin family because my grandmother, as the story goes, was disowned for marrying beneath her (John was a blacksmith).  Whether this is true or just folk lore I don't know.  Most of my information comes from my Aunt Lily who is actually Elizabeth.  Apparently when she was naturalized as a Canadian they said her name was "Lily".  There is also a story behind that too.  She did say she was named after 2 of her Aunts - Elizabeth - one from each side of the family.  She was the last child born in Ireland, in 1912, just before they emigrated.  She was born on Cherry Orchard.  

I am not sure if my grandparents were living in Busby in 1935 but I do know that my Aunt Margaret and her husband Ivan lived there on a farm and my Aunt Lily and her husband, Alex Taylor, bought that farm from them in 1936 so it could have been them your mother visited too.  They were all farmers back then.  Apparently my grandfather didn't really like farming so when he could he would find other work.  I don't know if Uncle Joe (John Joseph) ever farmed.  I don't have that information. My grandparents never left Alberta.  However my Aunt Margaret, in the early 1930's, moved to Chicago and then to Oakland. So I wonder if my Aunt moved to Chicago because of your great-grandmother??  

Shane, who was helping me, found the right parents for my grandfather, John, namely Richard Jordan and Catherine/Kate Daley.  The children you found for John Jordan/Mary E. Martin, are my Aunts and Uncles, namely Margaret, John (who uses his middle name Joe), Kathleen and Michael.  There was a fifth child, a daughter whose birth certificate would list her either as Elizabeth or Lizie (my Aunt Lily) who was born in 1912 just weeks before they moved to Canada.  There were 3 other children born in Canada, namely Aunt Rita (Patricia), May (Marie) and my father, Daniel.  All were born in Alberta.

My grandmother who lived at Cherry Orchard was Mary Ellen Martin.  She went by the knick name Minnie.  My Aunt Lily and her husband visited Cherry Orchard a couple of times.  I think once in the '60's and once in the '70's.  They took a picture of if and I think I too may have a photo.  You indicated your mother was 10 in 1935 so it is possible that my Aunts and Uncles were her Aunts and Uncles because my Aunt Lily would have been 24 at the time.  But is is also possible they could have been cousins because my father, who is the youngest, would have been 15 at that time.  However, there is 19 years difference in age between my Aunt Margaret and my father.  I would have to say either your mother and I are cousins or you and I are first cousins.  

I believe that your mother's "Aunt Betty" is the Elizabeth my Aunt Lily was named after.  I must admit it does seem very confusing  with respect to Johanna Wade being in this too.  Is it possible it is a another relative?

No, I have not joined ancestry.com yet because I am only beginning.  However my cousin Sandi McKae (Aunt May's daughter) is on ancestry and has done some work.  I think most of the information she has to date is on the Jordan side because I believe she was running into some problems tracking information down.  I guess I will have to go ahead and join ancestry to see what is there on the Martin side of the family.  In the meantime I am going to email Sandi to tell her about this Ireland XO site and the fact that I have found a cousin.  I will also suggest to her she join this site so she can follow along with any other things we find out.

So glad to have a met a new cousin.  Looking forward to hearing from you again.  I am also sorry it took so long for me to respond and for the lengthy response.

Sue

Hi Sue,

I'm so happy to hear from you!  Thank you for your response and all of the information which is fantastic.  I am completely overwhelmed and will have to chart all of it out to find out who and where we fit and how we are related.  

Can you help me place your grandmother in the family?  You mention that she was Mary Ellen Martin, and was she the daughter of John Martin and Margaret (Cowman) Martin?  I have a Mary Martin in my tree born in 1875 to John Martin and Margaret Cowman Martin, is that her?  The other researcher was right, there are so many Mary Martin's or variations of the name Mary Martin it is hard to sort them out. And the fact that there is a Mary Martin, a Mary Ellen Martin and a Mary E. Martin is really confusing me!  There are also several Margaret Martin's and I'm having trouble sorting them out.  It was very kind of Shane to assist in your research.

Let me start by giving you a little more detail on my direct line and see if we can figure this out.

• My great-great grandparents were:  John Martin born about 1836 and Margaret Cowman born 1827
• My great grandparents were Margaret Martin born abt. 1868 and James Cunningham born 1831 (there was 28 years difference in their ages)
• My grandparents (my mom's parents) were: Mary Martin Cunningham born 1902 and Abraham Dixon born 1892
• My mother's Aunts and Uncles from the Martin side were actually Cunninghams because her grandmother Margaret Martin, married into the surname Cunningham.  They were John, James and William Cunningham (all had the middle name "Martin")
• My mother's Great Aunts and Uncles were the siblings of her grandmother, Margaret Martin Cunningham. They were: Esther Martin b. 1856, Mary  Eliza Martin b. 1858, John Martin b. 1864, Sarah Martin b. 1866, Joseph Martin b. 1869, Mary Jane Martin b. 1871, Elizabeth (Betty) Martin b. 1873, Mary Martin b.1875, William Martin b. 1878, Mary Ann Martin b. ? (I'm having trouble finding info. on Mary Ann but my mother knew of her and I even have a couple of photos of her, she was lovely) and possibly Mildred Martin b. ?.  This is the generation that I think will be familiar to you and if I'm correct, they would be your Great Aunts and Uncles as well, so you and my mom shared Great Aunts/Uncles as I believe you suspected.

If your grandmother is the Mary Martin b. 1875 to John Martin and Margaret Cowman Martin she would have been my mother's great Aunt.  However, I'm not certain that this Mary is the same "Mary Ellen" as your grandmother and wanted to confirm this information with you.  

Here's another interesting coincidence.  You mentioned your Aunt Lily was named after her Aunt Elizabeth Martin.  You also mentioned you had an Aunt Margaret Martin who moved to Chicago and later to Oakland.  My great-grandmother Margaret Martin Cunningham and my grandmother Mary Martin Dixon and my Mom's family lived in the Chicago area so perhaps she did move there to be near her Aunt Margaret Martin Cunningham as you suggested.  Just as interesting is the fact that Elizabeth Martin b. 1873 who was another one of your Aunt Lily's other Aunts and as you said, also her namesake, lived in Oakland, California and was married to a man with the surname Wallace.  So perhaps she later moved to Oakland to be near her Aunt "Elizabeth/Betty/Lizzy".  This was my Mom's great Aunt and she went by the nickname "Lizzy" until Ford came out with the car the "Tin Lizzy" and she no longer liked that nickname.  After that she began to use the nickname "Betty".

Question for you:  are the records I found for John Jordan and Mary Ellen Martin in the 1911 Ireland census record that list John and Mary Jordan with children Margaret, John Joseph, Kathleen and Michael your grandparents and the children your aunts and uncles?  The census shows this John Jordan's occupation as being a blacksmith and living in Co. Wexford.  However I got John Jordan's parents incorrect---they are not Patrick Jordan and Ellen Furlong but instead they are Richard Jordan and Catherine Daley, your great grandparents, is that correct?

I also found a 1921 Canadian census record for John Jordan born about 1880 (the birth years are very often not exact) and Mary Jordan with children Kathleen Jordan age15 Micheal Jordan age13 Lily Jordan age 8 Patricia Jordan age6 Mary E Jordan age 5 (I believe you said her actual name was Marie, probably just another error by the census taker as often happened) Daniel Jordan age 8/12.  It shows the year of emigration as 1913 and they are living in Edmunton, Alberta, Canada.  Margaret would have been 24 by then and John Joseph would have been 18 so they may have already moved from home by 1921.  Was this your Aunt Margaret who moved to Chicago and later Oakland?  An interesting point on the census record is that "Jordan, John Mary" is written on the same line, but the name "John" is crossed out.  Occupation for Mary is "housewife".  I kept looking and found another Canadian 1921 census record for John Jordan (born abt 1878, again the birth years are often miscalculated) and John "son" Jordan listed as "lodgers" in the municipality of Busby, Edmunton West, Alberta, Canada occupation "laborers".  So perhaps John father and John Joseph the son had an out of town job that they worked at for a while and his wife Mary and the young children remained at home?

So I think I'm getting a better idea of where John Jordan fits into your line, but I'm not at all certain that I have the correct Mary Martin as your grandmother.  If you know her approximate birth year that would help me place her because in my records I don't show a Mary "Ellen", but do show a Mary (no middle name known) born 1875 and several other "Mary's".

Anyway, I think I've got it now.  I input all of this into my family tree program and if I've got this correct, you and I are 2nd cousins 1X removed.  You and my mother would be 2nd cousins.  John Martin and Margaret Cowman Martin would be your great grandparents and my great-great grandparents. 

The funny story my Mom used to tell about visiting with the Martins on the farm in Busby, Canada when she was a child was that one day the Martin (or Jordan) family decided to have chicken for dinner.  So one of the family went out, grabbed up a chicken and promptly chopped off it's head.  It was that day that my Mom learned the meaning of the phrase "running around like a chicken with it's head cut off" because she said that the poor little headless chicken ran around for a bit before finally expiring and ending up on the dinner table!

Also, it would make complete sense that my Mom's family would visit your family in Busby since my Mom's grandmother Margaret Martin Cunningham and your grandmother Mary Martin Jordan were sisters!

In terms of the Margaret Cowman/Johanna Wade question where I thought perhaps John Martin was married twice though it didn't seem to match up, I may have some more information on that.  I have a very dear and brilliant cousin who lives in Ireland.  She and I work on the family history together and she is a wonderful and gracious lady and a treasured family member and friend.  She knows Co. Wexford inside and out and has helped me with research immeasureably.  When I told her that I may have run across a Martin relative and mentioned the Margaret Cowman/Johanna Wade issue, she provided me with some information.  There were two John Martins living in Enniscorthy at the same time and it's very possible that they both had daughters with the same name and when I ordered records, I got them from two different John Martin's married to their respective wives. Based upon this and the dates and children that don't match up, I don't think Johanna Wade is part of the family, but I'll keep her in my notes just in case.  I know Margaret Cowman is surely in the family, especially because of the family bible my Aunt had that is unfortunately probably gone forever which breaks my heart.

Regarding Cherry Orchard, I found a record from Griffith's Valuation (1848-1864) that shows John Cowman as the lessee at Cherry Orchard and the Earl of Portsmouth as the lessor.  My cousin found much more detailed information regarding Cherry Orchard and as she explained, these were the times when the British came to Ireland, took land from the Irish and then leased it back to them as tenant farmers and according to Griffith's Valuation, John Cowman did not own the home or the land at Cherry Orchard.  John Cowman was Margaret Cowman Martin's father so Cherry Orchard came to the Martin family thru the Cowman family though it is unlikely that either family owned it. My cousin found that Cherry Orchard was in total, about 117 acres but divided into two parcels, one 116 acre parcel in the parish of Monart and the other, a 1 acre parcel in the parish of St. Mary's.  We are not certain, but it may be likely that the family remained lessee's.

She also found that Maudlintown is just a few miles from where my grandmother Margarget Martin and her husband James Cunningham lived in Staplestown and near Cherry Orchard.  I believe that Maudlintown is in Enniscorthy but will confirm with my cousin.  I will also ask her how far it is from Wexford Town to Enniscorthy, not too far I think.  The Dixon side of my family (who married a Martin) lived in Wexford Town and Castlebridge.

If there is anything you'd like for me to research for you on ancestry.com, please let me know.  It would be adding to my family tree as well.  Also, I'm not sure how to do this on this forum, but I'd really like to share our regular email addresses with you privately if you feel comfortable with that so that I could email you some copies of photos of your Great Aunt Elizabeth "Betty" Martin Wallace, Great Aunt Margaret Martin Cunningham,, Great Aunt Mary Ann Martin, their families and a few other family photos and documents.  I don't like to post photos online as I have seen too many copied and added to family trees that they don't even belong to.  I can also format a report on Family Tree Maker and send you all of the information I have on the Martin family and I'd be very grateful if you would share information on your Martin/Jordan side as well.

I apologize for the length of this note but as I was working thru trying to figure out how the family fit together, I just started typing it all out.  I'm glad that you received my post, I have never been on this website before and am not too familiar with how it works.

Nice to meet you and greetings to your/our cousin Sandi.  You mentioned she was Aunt May's daughter, which of the Aunt's was nicknamed "May"?

I hope that I've got my information straight and that some of it has been helpful to you.  The information you provided has certainly been helpful to me and I hope we can share more!

Take care,

Chris(tine)

Hi Chris.  Yes, my grandmother was Mary Ellen Martin, born 1875.  Her parents, my grandparents were John Martin and Margaret Cowman who appear to be your great-great grandparents.  Which, I guess makes us 3rd cousins.  Your mother's Great Aunts and Uncles would be my grandmother's siblings.  Sarah Martin, (my grandmother's sister) was a witness at her wedding.  Yes, your mother and I share Great Aunts and Uncles.  

The Mary Martin that you show as being born in 1875 is my grandmother.  Her middle name is Ellen.  So yes, I can confirm it is the same Mary Martin.

With respect to my Aunt Lily and her name, the story goes that apparently either my grandfather or grandmother (not sure which anymore) said they wanted her name Lizzy, the same as their sister.  I am not sure what actually ended up on her birth certificate or baptism certificate but I believe it was Lizzie.  Apparently when they emigrated to Canada the same comment was made and the Immigration official wrote down "Lily".  As Lily was, at best, 6 months old (maybe younger), that is how she came to be called Lily.  Perhaps, also, they couldn't read the writing on her birth certificate.

My Aunt Margaret who moved to Chicago and later to Oakland was my grandparents oldest daughter, Margaret Munro (nee Jordan).  She wasn't married to a man named Wallace.  

The records you found for John Jordan and Mary Ellen Martin in the 1911 Ireland census record with children Margaret, John Joseph, Kathleen and Michael are indeed my grandparents and Aunts and Uncles.  My grandfather was a blacksmith and his parents (my great-grandparents) were Richard Jordan and Catherine/Kate Daley.

The 1921 Canadian census record for John Jordan and Mary Jordan with children Kathleen (15), Michael (13), Lily (8), Particia (6), Mary (5) and Daniel (8/12) that you found are indeed my grandparents, father (Daniel) and Aunts and Uncles).  Margarent was married by this time and would have been listed under her married name (Munro).  I am not sure when Uncle Joe left home but he was probably already living elsewhere at that point.  it is possible they emigrated in 1913 because Aunt Lily was born August 11, 1912 and they emigrated shortly after that.  If indeed she was 6 months when they came to Canada then that would make the emigration in 1913 and not 1912.  As they say, "records never lie".  As you surmised, this was my Aunt Margaret who moved to Chicago and later Oakland.  My grandfather did leave my grandmother with the kids quite often to go seek work elsewhere so this could be when he was in Busby and my grandmother still in Fawn Lake.  

The information we had was that my grandmother was born abt 1874.  Shane, who has been helping me found the records showing she was actually born in 1875 to John Martin and Margaret Cowman.  Her headstone actually says 1874 (which is incorrect) but then my grandfather's says 1872 and he was actually born in 1874.

It does sound like the Johanna Wade/John Martin family are not the same family as ours.  Again, I am positive my grandparents were John and Margaret Cowman because of their daughter Sarah being a witness at my grandmother's wedding.  It would seem to make sense that Sarah is my grandmother's sister.  

You mentioned you found records showing John Cowman as the lessee at Cherry Orchard and the Earl of Portsmouth as the lessor.  Very interesting.  My Aunt Lily used to say that grandma came from royalty.  Perhaps this is the connection to "royalty".  I also know she said that grandma lived on an estate.  

The cousin in Ireland who is helping you, is she a Martin?  Where would she fit in?  

I will have to get onto ancestry.com and then I could see what my cousin has input as well.  It would be nice if you could format a report on Family Tree Maker for me.  That would be greatly appreciated.  My cousin Sandi sent me a link to ancestry that I could forward to you as well.  However, I don't know how much information she has on it on the Martin side.  When I sent her a note telling her about you she was estatic to get all this information.  She said she had stalled and now would be able to move forward.  I agree it would be easier to share email addresses.  To make matters easy I have created a hotmail account.  If you would like to email me at kenscoop@hotmail.com I will respond with my normal email address and then cancel the hotmail account.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Sue

Hi Chris.  Yes, my grandmother was Mary Ellen Martin, born 1875.  Her parents, my grandparents were John Martin and Margaret Cowman who appear to be your great-great grandparents.  Which, I guess makes us 3rd cousins.  Your mother's Great Aunts and Uncles would be my grandmother's siblings.  Sarah Martin, (my grandmother's sister) was a witness at her wedding.  Yes, your mother and I share Great Aunts and Uncles.  

The Mary Martin that you show as being born in 1875 is my grandmother.  Her middle name is Ellen.  So yes, I can confirm it is the same Mary Martin.

With respect to my Aunt Lily and her name, the story goes that apparently either my grandfather or grandmother (not sure which anymore) said they wanted her name Lizzy, the same as their sister.  I am not sure what actually ended up on her birth certificate or baptism certificate but I believe it was Lizzie.  Apparently when they emigrated to Canada the same comment was made and the Immigration official wrote down "Lily".  As Lily was, at best, 6 months old (maybe younger), that is how she came to be called Lily.  Perhaps, also, they couldn't read the writing on her birth certificate.

My Aunt Margaret who moved to Chicago and later to Oakland was my grandparents oldest daughter, Margaret Munro (nee Jordan).  She wasn't married to a man named Wallace.  

The records you found for John Jordan and Mary Ellen Martin in the 1911 Ireland census record with children Margaret, John Joseph, Kathleen and Michael are indeed my grandparents and Aunts and Uncles.  My grandfather was a blacksmith and his parents (my great-grandparents) were Richard Jordan and Catherine/Kate Daley.

The 1921 Canadian census record for John Jordan and Mary Jordan with children Kathleen (15), Michael (13), Lily (8), Particia (6), Mary (5) and Daniel (8/12) that you found are indeed my grandparents, father (Daniel) and Aunts and Uncles).  Margarent was married by this time and would have been listed under her married name (Munro).  I am not sure when Uncle Joe left home but he was probably already living elsewhere at that point.  it is possible they emigrated in 1913 because Aunt Lily was born August 11, 1912 and they emigrated shortly after that.  If indeed she was 6 months when they came to Canada then that would make the emigration in 1913 and not 1912.  As they say, "records never lie".  As you surmised, this was my Aunt Margaret who moved to Chicago and later Oakland.  My grandfather did leave my grandmother with the kids quite often to go seek work elsewhere so this could be when he was in Busby and my grandmother still in Fawn Lake.  

The information we had was that my grandmother was born abt 1874.  Shane, who has been helping me found the records showing she was actually born in 1875 to John Martin and Margaret Cowman.  Her headstone actually says 1874 (which is incorrect) but then my grandfather's says 1872 and he was actually born in 1874.

It does sound like the Johanna Wade/John Martin family are not the same family as ours.  Again, I am positive my grandparents were John and Margaret Cowman because of their daughter Sarah being a witness at my grandmother's wedding.  It would seem to make sense that Sarah is my grandmother's sister.  

You mentioned you found records showing John Cowman as the lessee at Cherry Orchard and the Earl of Portsmouth as the lessor.  Very interesting.  My Aunt Lily used to say that grandma came from royalty.  Perhaps this is the connection to "royalty".  I also know she said that grandma lived on an estate.  

The cousin in Ireland who is helping you, is she a Martin?  Where would she fit in?  

I will have to get onto ancestry.com and then I could see what my cousin has input as well.  It would be nice if you could format a report on Family Tree Maker for me.  That would be greatly appreciated.  My cousin Sandi sent me a link to ancestry that I could forward to you as well.  However, I don't know how much information she has on it on the Martin side.  When I sent her a note telling her about you she was estatic to get all this information.  She said she had stalled and now would be able to move forward.  I agree it would be easier to share email addresses.  To make matters easy I have created a hotmail account.  If you would like to email me at kenscoop@hotmail.com I will respond with my normal email address and then cancel the hotmail account.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Sue

To shanew147:  Hopefully this reaches you.  I will be in Enniscorthy on September 9.  I have found out some of the places my Jordan ancestors lived but I am having trouble determining exactly where on Cherry Orchard my Martin ancestors lived.  I understand there is a road called Cherry Orchard.  Should I assume they lived somewhere on that road?  Also, I have had no luck finding where any of the Jordans or Martins are buried.  Do you have any suggestions on how I can determine what cemetery they are in?  At one point I thought I had found a reference to Templeshanbo but I am not certain.  I was able to determine John Jordan and a number of his siblings were baptized at St. Aidan's but I can't find any cemetery related to that church.  

Hoping to hear from you.

Sue

updated the new thread - Jordan and Martin family, Enniscorthy Wexford