County/Parish of ancestors

Dorothy,

The townland, Ballycarty, is in the RC parish of Ballymacelligot, Kerry. The birth and marriage records begin in the fall of 1868. On the free site irishgenealogy.ie under the church records tab, there are birth records for six children of George and Elizabeth. The earliest one is for Thomas Gorham 2 Dec 1869. I could not find a marriage record, so they must have been married prior to 1868. You might take a look at the baptismal sponsors for their children as there are a number of Gorham and Kerin names....could be siblings or some other close relatives. 

On a side note, I too have ancestors from Ballymacelligot, and am disappointed that there are no earlier records.

Regards, 

Here’s a birth for James Gorham in 1865. Father was a carpenter at that date:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

Margaret Gorham birth in 1867. Father was a labourer:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03470/2274680.pdf

Dear Carolyn and Elwyn,

Thank you for getting back with me so quickly and with the information and clearing up the correct townland and parish names.  I just recently came back from Ireland and still learning about the different parishes and counties.  It was a great trip and I hope to return in 2 years. 

I've visited irishgenealogy.ie but since I'm fairly new to this I had some trouble looking up information so I appreciate your tips.  I will start with the church tab and look at the sponsors.  I emailed the RC Parish of Ballymacelligot but still waiting for a response.  Not sure what they would be able to tell me but it was worth a try.  James Gorham and Margaret "Kerin" Gorham are family names in my records but I have their DOB much earlier than 1865 so not sure if these are the same people but I will check civil records too.

George and Elizabeth had 7 children.  Thomas was one of them born in 1869 but we did not have the date of his birth so thank you for finding that for me.  He had a sister, Kathleen or Catherine born in 1867 but since you mentioned records don't go back that far there wouldn't be anything on her...sad to hear. 

Carolyn, I hope you were able to find some of your ancestors.  It is sad records don't go back prior to 1868 but it's understandable.  

Many thanks to you both.  If I have more questions can I contact you?

Regards,

Dorothy

Dorothy,

Ballycarty is a townland of 182 acres. In the 1901 census it had a grand total of 7 houses and a population of 37.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kerry/Ballyseedy/Ballycarty/

In Griffiths Valuation (1853) the townland also had 7 houses, one of which was a labourer’s house and small garden, occupied by Thomas Kearin.  There were no other Kerin or Gorham houses in Ballycarty. So assuming we have the right townland, then it’s not very likely that there’s going to be two Thomas Gorhams married to two Elizabeth Kerins there at the same time. So it’s probably your couple.

If James & Margaret’s ages don’t match your information, there can be several explanations. The most obvious is that Irish people didn’t celebrate birthdays in the 1800s and often had little idea of their age, especially as they got older. If officialdom asked for an age or date of birth it was common to guess or make something up.  You’ll see wide discrepancies between folks ages in the censuses and other records.

Another explanation is that there were children named James and Margaret born earlier, but they died young. It was common in that situation to re-use the names. Tradition was to keep the names alive within the family. Literally. So the James & Margaret born in 1865 & 1867 may be the second children with those names in that family.

Civil registration of RC marriages started in 1864, along with statutory birth registration. I don’t see Thomas and Elizabeth’s marriage in those, so would assume they married before 1864. Because the RC parish of Ballymacelligot has no records before 1868 you are probably not going to be able find a record of the parents marriage or of any children born before 1.1.1864.

Feel free to ask any questions you like.  I think Carolyn knows the area better than I do so I'll defer to her knowledge!

Dear Elwyn,

Thank you again for this wealth of information and the background of Ballycarty.  I was having trouble trying to access Griffiths Evaluation so I appreciate this.  I believe we have the right couple based on what you found and what I have.  

I also appreciate the background history about our ancestors in the 1800's.  It makes sense that birthday's wouldn't be celebrated and the fact that names were often used many times.  I am also discovering dates and ages don't always line up.  Obviously record keeping, or lack of, is much different than today's times.  We sure have come a long way.  I received an email from a Fr. Gearoid Walsh from Ballymacelligott Parish and he was able to kindly confirm the baptismal records of Mary E. Gorham.  Their oldest records start in 1869.  

It's just wonderful to finally know where in Ireland my ancestors lived, what some did, and when some left for the US.

One more question - I'm assuming finding any cemetery plot would be difficult?  One of my tour guides mentioned Rath Cemetery.  From what I was able to find out there is an old and new section?  I'm assuming families in the late 1800's early 1900's didn't have the means to place headstones so finding an ancestor's plot might be challenging?

Thank you again.

Best regards,

Dorothy

Dorothy,

On the question of folk knowing their ages, I have attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of age.” He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to within 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension was being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof of age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, establishing his age accurately became relevant to him). I think its fairly good example of people not knowing their ages.

Regarding gravestones, there are usually some gravestones for folk who died in the 1800s. They tended to be the wealthier folk in the area, so tradesmen, bigger farmers and the local priests of course. The majority of the population (mostly labourers in rural areas) could rarely afford one (unless a wealthy relative in America paid, of course). They would often be in unmarked graves. Few graveyards kept burial records in those days (most of the gravediggers were probably not all that literate and written records weren’t much use to them).

The local parish office should be able to tell you if any records exist and also whether anyone has transcribed the gravestones that are there. Or Carolyn may know more about Rath cemetery.

Hi Elwyn,

Thank you for sharing this letter!  I didn't realize people were not aware of their age back then.  How sad but I understand why.  I also appreciate the information about the gravestones.  I had a hunch gravestones would not be affordable for those with limited means.  I looked at some photos of gravestones from Rath cemetery online and many were in the 1900's while some in the mid-1800's were not in good condition.

Appreciate your knowledge and input as well as your correspondence.

If there is a book you could recommend about Irish history please let me know.  

Best regards,

Dorothy