I'm trying to trace great grand parents from Donegal. They were married on 21st. April 1892 in Ballymena, Co. Antrim. I am assuming they were on their way to a new life in Scotland. They were both from Donegal, Hugh McCrudden who gave his address as Brokburn, And Hannah Darragh gave her address as Casheltown. They were both Roman Catholics. On the marriage certificate husband's father and mother ar not named but the wife's father is Bernard Darragh, wife's mother is not named. The witnesses were James Darragh [brother?] and Martha McCrudden [sister?] They came to Scotland between the years 1892 - 1893, Their first born, Patrick was born 1893 in Uphall, Linlithgowshire. Their names also changed when they were in Scotland, McCrudden became Roden, Rodden and Darragh became Darroch. Not sure what that means or if these surnames were used in Ireland as well. I also have conflicting ages on death and census records, but I think Hugh was born around 1868 and Hannah around 1870. If ahyone can help it would be most appreciated.
Many thanks in advance.
Saturday 10th Aug 2024, 09:09PM
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Here’s a link to the civil marriage certificate which gives Hugh McCrudden’s father’s name as P. McCrudden, a labourer, with a note that he was still alive at that date.
You say that Hugh & Hannah both came from Co. Donegal. What’s your source for that? I wonder if it is correct? The Darragh family seem to me to be from Co. Antrim. I don’t think your scenario of the couple being en route from Donegal to Scotland when they married in Co Antrim is likely to be correct. (They’d have married at home in Donegal or on arrival in Scotland). I think Hannah and her family are all from Co. Antrim. When she married, Hannah was living in Casheltown. Her father Bernard was a farmer and died there in 1897:
Here’s what looks to me to be Hannah’s birth in Casheltown, Co Antrim in 1869. Mother was Catherine Watson. Hannah's brother James (witness at her wedding) is in the 1901 Antrim census. Bernard Darragh & Catherine Watson married in Ahoghill RC chapel on 10th April 1844.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…
Family in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Portglanone/Casheltown/940698/
Hannah’s mother Catherine died in 1905:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…
Remaining family in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Portglenone/Casheltown/124045/
Probate abstracts taken from the PRONI wills site:
Darrah John of Casheltown Ahoghill county Antrim farmer died 12 May 1927 Probate Belfast 2 August to Paul McErlain farmer. Effects £320 8s.
Darragh Roger of Casheltown Ahoghill county Antrim farmer died 22 November 1943 Probate Belfast 29 February to Susan Darragh farmer the widow. Effects £53 10s.
The above wills should be in PRONI in Belfast if you want to read them. Free if you go in person or you can pay PRONI or a researcher to copy them for you.
Roger Darragh looks to have been born 16.5.1866. James and any other siblings were probably born before the start of statutory birth registration in 1864.
Bernard Darragh looks to have had plot 5 in Casheltown which today is on the modern Carmagrim Rd between Randalstown and Portglenone. (There’s a big modern house there today. Looks to me as though the old farmhouse has been replaced).
I think there was a Darragh family farming in Casheltown in 1825. The tithe applotment records (essentially a list of those with land) list a John Dandagh farming there then. I suspect that’s a typo for Darragh. John might be Bernard’s father.
https://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/portglenone-parish.php
Before I try to research Hugh McCrudden, tell me why you think he came from Donegal. Frankly I suspect he too was probably from Co Antrim. (It’s a common name around Randalstown). I think this might be the Martha McCrudden who witnessed his marriage. In 1901 she was working in the hotel in Randalstown just a few miles from Casheltown. You’ll note she was born in Co Antrim.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Randalstown/Main_Street/920010/
I think this is her birth in 1865 to Patrick McCrudden and Sarah Boyle:
She married Thomas Duffy in 1905. Here she is in the 1911 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cranfield/Greenan/110704/
Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘
Saturday 10th Aug 2024, 10:41PM -
I must thank you very much for all that information.
As far as Hugh McCrudden coming from Donegal, it is only the word of his last remaining grandson, but with nothing to back it up, it's what his father told him, as he never met his grandfather and doesn't seem to know very much about him. So I think you are probably correct in your assumtion that he was from County Antrim, and any information you can find would be extremely helpful.
scran
Sunday 11th Aug 2024, 01:15PM -
scran,
Roden/Rodden in my opinion is simply McRudden with the Mc removed. The Mc & O’ prefixes have always been detachable and you often find families abandoning them and then sometimes using them again.
I can see from Hugh’s death certificate in 1909 that his father was Patrick Roden, general labourer. Mother’s name unfortunately not known (to the informant). I think this is him in Greenan, outside Randalstown. He died in 1910:
Informant was Martha Duffy again. We know from the 1911 census that his wife was Sarah and aged 84.
Here’s Patrick & Sarah in 1901:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Cranfield/Greenan/919521/
Sarah died in 1916. Note also that the death immediately before hers was her daughter Martha. Just a few days apart. Very sad.
Note also that Sarah’s daughter Kate O’Hara was the informant for her death and that she normally lived in Bathgate.
Catharine McCrudden birth 1867:
Patrick McCrudden birth 1870:
Duneane RC baptism records also record a Sarah McRudden baptism to Patrick & Sarah on 10.2.1851 and Catherine 30.8.1852. I would assume Catherine b 1851 had died by 1867 as the name was reused then for the later Catherine. There is a death for a Catherine McCrudden registered in Antrim regn area on 1.4.1866 aged 15. That would seem to fit. That’s not on-line free. If you want the details it’s pay to view on the GRONI site.
I see a marriage between Catherine McCrudden and John O’Hara in Bathgate in 1912. She looks to have died in Bathgate in 1933. Both certificates are viewable on Scotlandspeople.
Any questions?
Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘
Sunday 11th Aug 2024, 08:12PM -
Hi there Elwyn, can I just say what a great job you've done, so much info I never expected. Many thanks. Just to let you know that this is my wife's ancestry I'm trying to chase down as her family seems to stop at her paternal grandfather. After which it's down to the possible myth that Hugh came from Donegal! Also the fact that no-one else in her family is interested, they're only interested when somebody else is doing all the work....same old, same old! I was also very interested to learn that the Mc and O' prefixes were able to be abandoned, which tells me that Roden or Rodden is just a misspell by someone, certainly not by Hugh or Hannah as neither could read and write. The same goes, I imagine, for Darragh to Darroch,
I am assuming that there is no sign of a birth registration for this Hugh, son of Patrick and Sarah. It's a pity as I would have liked to prove or disprove the Donegal myth. I also noticed on Catherine McCrudden's birth sheet, on the bottom there is a Charles McCrudden born to John McCrudden and his wife Bridget Kennedy at Randalstown. Could this John be a brother of Patrick?
Many thanks for the info on the Bathgate Catherine, I'll certainly have a good look into that one. It could be a chance to meet some relations, you never know.
I was also wondering if there could be any records or lists anywhere of sailings from, I'm assuming Larne, over to scotland. Could you advise me on that one, if you can?
I am now going to transfer all this data onto the family tree and see where it takes me.
Again, mamy many thanks for all you help.
Jim.
scran
Monday 12th Aug 2024, 05:42PM -
Elwyn,
I chased up the Bathgate connection you found and dicovered her marriage to John O'Hara was her second marriage. She married Daniel McLennon in Ireland c.1890. They had 3 sons, Patrick [born in Ireland c.1891], Daniel 1893 and Robert 1898, both born in Uphall. I'd appreciate links to their marriage and the birth of Patrick. It now looks to me that they came to Scotland with Hugh and Hannah. On the 1901 cencus for Daniel and Catherine there is another Hugh McCrudden, aged 28, as a boarder. I wonder if he's maybe related to the John McCrudden I previously enquired about. I hope you can help me on this one.
Many thanks,
Jim.
scran
Wednesday 14th Aug 2024, 06:37PM -
Jim,
Regarding sailings from Larne to Scotland there are no passenger lists. It was (and still is) a short domestic journey and no-one has ever kept records for that. And folk went back and forth all the time, so they may well have crossed and recrossed many times, for weddings, holidays and funerals. Kate O’Hara’s presence at the Randalstown death is an example of that as her usual address was given as Bathgate. She obviously came over to look after her dying mother and sister.
You ask for a link for Kate/Catherine’s first marriage. Here it is in 1890 at Moneyglass chapel (near Toomebridge).
It’s under McLernon in the Irish indexes. That’s likely to be the local version of the name. I live in the area (half a mile from Greenan) and McLernon remains a common local name to this day.
You’ll notice that Daniel was already living in Broxburn when he married. So clearly several people from the Greenan area all moved to the same area of Scotland for work. So there could perhaps be others from these families resident in the Bathgate area in the 1890s onwards.
Here’s the birth of their son Patrick in March 1891. The father was in Scotland at the time:
When people moved to Scotland (or elsewhere) they often just went with the flow as regards spelling their names (especially if not literate). So McDonnell in Ireland often became MacDonald in Scotland; Rainey became Rennie and so on. Not surprised to learn Darragh became Darroch. A big lake in Scotland is called Loch Lomond. The big lake near Randalstown is Lough Neagh. Same word, same meaning, same pronunciation - just a different spelling. So it was with peoples’ names.
Yes the O & Mc prefixes are detachable and most Irish search engines automatically search all options. So searching Loughlin will throw up all the Loughlins, Lauchlans but also O’Loughlin and McLoughlin etc.
Re spelling of names in Ireland, in 1899, the Rev Smith reviewed the early records of Antrim 1st Presbyterian church (covering the years 1674 to c 1736). He noted: “Even the same word is not always spelled alike by the same hand. Indeed spelling with most of the recording officials (and they must have been fairly numerous) was a matter of the most sublime indifference. The name William, for instance, is spelled 3 different ways in as many lines; while Donegore, a neighbouring parish, is spelled 10 different ways; but these extend over a good number of years. Many families names are spelled phonetically, while others are given in the most round-about fashion.”
So expect spelling to vary. That was the norm.
In Irish (gaelic) the spelling and prefixes vary depending firstly on what case is used (eg genitive usually requires the insertion of an extra “i”), and secondly with a woman’s name, it changed according to her marital status. It is a further factor in explaining why no-one in Ireland worried about the “correct” spelling. There wasn’t one. This bilingual nature of many Irish names is an important factor in the variations in spellings.
Here are 2 examples of spelling varying within the same family in the same census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Drumsough/920148/http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Upper_Glenarm/Carncastle/Four_Score_Acre/5/
I forgot to mention that I found Pat & Sarah’s marriage. It was in the parish of Duneane (either at Cargin or Moneyglass. It’s not clear which chapel). On 26th Feb 1851. He’s indexed as McRudden on the Ancestry site.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633174?locale=en#page/80/mode/1up
So they married 2 weeks after the baptism of daughter Sarah. I didn’t find son Hugh’s birth or baptism but I am sure he was born locally, and probably before 1.1.1864. All the records for McRudden I have found so far have been in the same parish in Co Antrim., They were clearly there in 1851 and all through the years after that until 1916, always living on the same property. The likelihood of one child being born in Donegal 90 miles away seems most remote to me. There may be other McRudden siblings yet to be found. Most families had a child every 2 years or so. Not sure I have found as many as I would have expected.
Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘
Sunday 18th Aug 2024, 03:27PM