Andrew Johnston, married Sept 3, 1860 to Nancy Wallace

Peggy,

I don’t see a Joseph Johnston death in the Cookstown area that fits your family. There is one in 1883 but he’s a bachelor. I don’t see an Elizabeth or Betty Johnston death post 1875 that fits.

You ask what church the family might have attended. Urbal is in Tamlaght, so if Church of Ireland there’s Tamlaght itself (baptisms start 1801) and Ballyeglish (records start 1868). If Presbyterian, then Coagh has records from 1839.

The couple married in a Register Office, so that raises a few questions. Was it a mixed marriage, or were neither of them religious (in which case they are unlikely to have baptised their children) or were they perhaps Brethren (in which case again there will be no records to consult)?

I looked for Annie’s marriage to George Brown in the Manchester area but did not see it. However both are very common names and so I can’t be sure I looked at every possible match. I don't see her death in 1932 in Salford either.

I do see a marriage in Salford in 1906 for Robert Bernard Keen, but he seems to have married either Ellen Ward or Alice Wilson, not Annie Brown. Presumably a coincidence. Who knows?

Thanks Elwyn. You have been very helpful. I don't know what religion Andrew was but I do know that his second marriage was in Wood's Chapel, COI, in 1875. The 1901 census with second wife Rachel says Andrew is Baptist. Andrew's son Joseph, born abt 1861/1862, was Christian Brethern in 1901 in Magherafelt and in 1911 in Shankhill. His marriage was also in Registrar's office. Son Joseph died Jan 14, 1938 in Belfast. Wish I could find father Joseph's death record. Or his  wife.

Anyway, I have been in touch with descendants of Annie's. Apparently, Andrew's son Joseph (Annie's brother) used to visit Annie in Salford, as per Annie's grandson born 1923. So Annie was alive until I would think at least until 1930 or the grandson would not be able to remember. Or was he told. Descendants do not think Annie was ever married to Robert Bernard Keen but they do think she was married to George Harry Brown. So at death, what name did she use? Brown, Keen, Johnston? Descendants do remember that Joseph was known to be Christian Brethern.

It would appear that Robert Bernard Keen did marry Ellen Ward in 1906, not Annie. I did not get that info from descendants. I am thinking that the marriage must have been quickly annuled as Ellen married the following year to Thomas Cliffe. Ellen was only 16 when she married Robert Bernard Keen. I don't know if there is any way to find out about annulments. 

Peggy

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church so Andrew marrying in Woods Chapel points to his bride being Church of Ireland but it doesn’t identify his denomination. However if he was Baptist in the 1901 census then that’s a helpful clue.

Baptists practice adult baptism. They do keep baptism records (though obviously they do not relate to when someone was born so are of restricted value) but with the sole exception of Coleraine congregation none of their records in Ireland are in the public domain. Brethren likewise have no records in the public domain, so again it’s not possible to research them.

Brethren always marry in a Register Office. (They don’t have anyone qualified to conduct a religious marriage service and so use the civil Registrar).

Regarding Annie’s death certificate, the name on it will be whatever the informant provided. If she was using the surname Keen, then it’s probably in that name. (No documentary proof of identity was required and so what you find on a death certificate is mostly just what the informant said. It can be inaccurate. But English law allows you to use any name you like provided it’s not for criminal purposes, so she was always free to call herself what she wanted. And if she was Annie Keen for 25 years, that’s probably what’s on her death certificate. (I have had a look but don’t see one in Salford. There are several in Lancashire who died around 1930 and were born around 1870 but without ordering each certificate there’s no way of telling if any is the right one. If she was registered as Ann Brown then there are hundreds to choose from.

If you have an address for her in Salford you might be able to track her in the street directories or electoral registers, to see when she stops being listed.

As far as the annulment is concerned, it might have made it into the papers, especially if a bit scandalous.  Probably worth checking to see what’s on Ellen’s marriage certificate to Thomas Cliffe. Does it say annulled or perhaps even spinster?  I wonder if she was under 16 when she married Robert Bernard Keen (and lied about her age)? If so, the marriage was void ab initio, and she’d be free to remarry without needing an annulment, once she reached 16. And she’d be recorded as a spinster on her next marriage certificate.

Research indicates that Ellen Ward was born May 3, 1890 to  George Ward. Her marriage to Robert Bernard Keen, father Frank, was Sept 8, 1906 in Christ Church COI,Salford but I don't have the record. Then she married Thomas Cliffe, Aug 1907 in Congleton, Cheshire but I haven't ordered the certificate. I didn't find anything in the newspapers about Ellen's marriage to Robert.

Annie's address in 1911 was 29 Essex Street, Salford. Her sons George Harry Brown, Jr. and John Edward both lived at 2 Windsor Terrace, Failsworth, Salford in 1939 although George lived at 16 Rumford Street in 1920 when he married Eliza Burgess. Grandson Arthur lived at 2 Windsor Terrace in 1945 as did his father George Harry Brown, Jr.

Peggy

In 1901, Andrew says he was born in Co. Armagh. Does that help at all, when used in conjunction with his marriage record in 1860 which says he was from Urble, Parish of  Tamlaght?

I have looked online for an contact address for COI, Tamlaght but couldn't find one. Can anyone help with that?

When Andrew died in 1912, there was a coroner's report. Would that reveal any family history and is it accessible?

Thanks

Peggy

Peggy,

Andrew being born in Armagh doesn’t help very much save to tell you he wasn’t born in Tamlaght which is in Cos. Tyrone & Londonderry. I see he was a carpenter. That was a trade that could involve travelling (as opposed to being a farmer, who tended to stay put). Urbal isn’t where Andrew was born. It’s just where he was living when he married. Sadly Irish marriage and death certificates don’t record a person’s place of birth.

There’s 29 parishes in Armagh. That’s a lot of records to search and as you probably know many are not on-line and many are lost. And of course if Andrew was born a Baptist then there are no records to search at all.

https://www.ancestryireland.com/civil-parish-maps-for-ulster/civil-parishes-of-county-armagh/

You ask for contact details for Tamlaght Church of Ireland. Here they are:

https://www.ireland.anglican.org/find-a-church/parish/10070/ballinderry-st-john-killymuck 

You ask about records of Andrew’s inquest. If the records have survived they will be in PRONI. They won't be on-line. I searched the British Newspapers site to see if it was reported in the local papers. It was in the Mid Ulster Mail for 6th July 1912. It likely contains all the information there is on the death. Copy attached.

I don't know where my reply went but here goes again. Thank you for the newspaper clipping which confirms that I had found the death of the correct Andrew Johnston, as it mentions his son Joseph of  Belfast. It also mentions that Andrew was living with Robert Chesney. I had found who I thought was the correct Andrew in 1911 living with James Chesney and his son Samuel Chesney.  Census says Andrew was a widower but Rachel was still alive. Seems that Andrew did not take very good care of himself.

Joseph's sister was Annie in Salford.  They were the only two surviving siblings of Andrew's first marriage, that I have evidence of anyway. There is family info that there was a Margaret born abt 1861 and Bessie abt 1863. If the naming pattern were followed, Nancy's mother could be Margaret and Andrew's could be Elizabeth, which is what I was already thinking, regarding Elizabeth. I have tried to look into the Wallace family without any success. 

It was interesting what you sent for contact details for Tamlaght Church of Ireland. When I first clicked on link, it mentions Canon William Paine, but when I click on website, I get Barry Paine, who is the man that I met at St. John's, Moneymore and followed him by car to St. Luke's, Tamlaght, on a hill overlooking the town of Coagh. I was looking for Hamiltons at the time. 

I had assumed that Andrew's father Joseph was from Urbal but I guess that was just Andrew's residence at time of marriage. I don't know when Andrew became Baptist. His son Joseph was Christian Brethern. Interesting that though Joseph died in  Belfast, both he and his wife were taken to the Old Burying Ground in Magherafelt for burial. I am wondering if they are buried with Andrew who died in Magherafelt but I don't know where he was buried.

Peggy

Regarding graveyards in Magherafelt, you could try the Church of Ireland (which buries folk of all denominations) or Polepatrick cemetery in Magherafelt. 

Polepatrick’s records are on the discovereverafter site:

https://www.midulstercouncil.org/resident/registration-services/cemeter…

Neither Baptists not Brethren normally have their own graveyards and they often use either Church of Ireland or council owned graveyards.

Thanks Elwyn. The graveyard link didn't work but I googled it and got in to the site that way. It's a great site. I have been told that the Old Burying Ground in Magherafelt is the same as Bridewell so I have asked my possible Johnston cousin in Magherafelt to look into Joseph's burial although he doesn't feel that Andrew and Joseph belong to "our" Johnstons.