Crozier from Bailieborough, County Caven

Local volunteer contacted.

Hi Ron,

I will see if I can assist you in anyway.  You probably have realised by now that getting backwards from the dates you mention are very difficult.  The name Crozier is very uncommon name, (which works in your favour) Drumacarrow is the townland next to Drutamy, so the Jacksons & Croziers were neighbours.  As a labourer Thomas Crozier most likely would not have had any property in his own name and may have moved around.   In Co. Cavan in 1901 there are two houses with Croziers, in Greaghduff & Carrickgroman, both these town lands are close to the previous mentioned places, so I have no doubt but they are connected.  One of the families is Presbyterian and the man in the other household belongs to the Plymouth Brethren, I know nothing about this group, however nearby there was a Gospel church, I will have to visit it to see if I can find it's affiliation.   The reason I am looking at this is to see if I can find where their records are if any?

Now to find living relatives, what I do for myself if to build up trees for the the people in the Census for 1901 & 1911(free to search), you can use myHeritage or Ancestry and together with irishgenealogy.ie (also free) plot their births deaths & marriages, what you are hoping for with a public tree is to find someone else with the same family (Don't just copy their research connect with them and collaborate).  In 1901 Jacksons were still in Drutamy, they are a Catholic family, so I wonder was there a change of religion somewhere along the line. On Griffiths valuation (a census substitute) griffiths.askaboutireland.ie  a James Crozier has 7 acres and a John is living closer to the town with some buildings on a plot of land, this record does not give us ages etc.  

To find living relatives is not too easy as data protection prohibits locating people born within the last 100 years, and I would not discuss them here, but do not despair as I can chat to people to see what they remember.  You have time to get some research done before you come next May and by all means if you have tracked more family names through marriages closer to present day, please let me know and I will see who might know more about them.

 I hope this has given you a start and that next May, hopefully we can meet up.

Best Wishes Carmel O'Callaghan 

Carmel & Ron,

I can help a little with information about Brethren and their records.  We have quite a few Brethren in Co. Antrim and I have researched several families.

Firstly, Brethren do not have a Priest/Minister or other person suitably qualified to conduct a marriage ceremony. Consequently they normally marry in the local Register Office. So Brethren marriages from 1845 onwards should be on irishgenealogy. Before 1845 there were no Register Offices and so they will have used one of the mainstream denominations, most likely the Church of Ireland.

Secondly, they practice baptism but their records are kept locally and are not in the public domain, nor on any websites or in repositories such as the National Archives etc.  I have written to a couple of Gospel Halls looking for early baptism records but none had any before 1900.

The good news is that Brethren are a fairly recent denomination.  (I hesitate to use the word denomination as most Brethren don’t like that, and term themselves simply as Christian). The first ever Brethren meeting was in 1825 but most congregations date from the 1860s onwards. Many in Ireland joined as part of the great religious revival in 1859. Prior to that most were either Church of Ireland or Presbyterian. So prior to 1864, you should search the local COI and Presbyterian records.

Thank you Elwyn,

There is a Gospel Hall not too far from where the Croziers lived, I was aware that they practised baptisms, in fact locally they were known as 'Dippers', maybe because they fully immersed themselves at baptism, but I could be corrected on this.

Regards Carmel

Thanks Carmel and Elwyn, your comments are very much appreciated. While I have a fairly detailed family tree from when Samuel and Mary arrived in Australia in 1850 (mainly concentrating on my direct line) I am starting to realize that it is going to be quite difficult finding earlier information. I have looked at the 1901/1911 census data but this does not provide much that I can use (perhaps I just don't know what to look for) as the info I am looking for is pre 1850. From what I can see on the National Archives and Irishgenealogy sites, I am unable to make any meaningful connections since Samuel and Mary immigrated in 1850. Searching the 1901/1911 census I can't tie them back to any of the 866 "Croziers" listed. I can only assume that Thomas (Samuel's father) was born in the late 1700's or early 1800's so not really sure where else to look.

I agree Ron,

The records we currently have won't directly link them back, but you are also looking for living relatives therefore people with the same information and they may have the link.  You would have a greater difficulty if you were looking for Clarke which has 1571 people in Co. Cavan, there are seven with the surname Crozier in your townlands.  The furthest I have got back with my own family in Ireland is John Reilly born 1707 and the only reason is that his headstone was found, but I don't know for sure what his sons name is, I have his grandsons, I have searched Registry of deeds, other land records, wills etc where available, but through DNA I have found many living relatives.

I put orphan families connected through DNA on my tree and recently one of them yielded results after doing that research 3 years ago, I made the connection and I have living 5th cousins, it is difficult to get beyond that unless the others have more details than you.  One of my great great grand uncles who died in New York made a will and named all his siblings, their married names and where they lived.  This year a couple whose ancestor that married into that New York family came to see me while we were not directly related we had a good time, but without them on my tree we would never have connected and it turns out he is related to my husband through DNA but so far out we will never know how.  We were able to direct him to the church and the townlands where his family were connected to.

For a fee you can commission research from Genealogy Centre Contact Details
Cavan Genealogy
1st Floor, Johnston Central Library, Farnham St., Cavan 
Tel: +353 (0) 49 4361094
Email: info@cavangenealogy.ie  

You can bounce information of me at anytime.

 

Regards Carmel

Thanks Carmel. I will keep looking. Hopefully I will get some time to look further into this when I am in Ireland next year.

Hi Ron,

I don't know if you have made any progress since but I have still been working on your behalf and I have spoken to people who can identify the Jackson house, they are no longer there but I will communicate with them again closer to the time you come.

I passed the Gospel Hall a couple of times and last evening I had success as I saw a man painting the outside of it and on my return he was still there, so I called into him, he is in Bailieborough 40 years and unsure of any available records, the name Crozier was not familiar to him, but he advised me that at the next prayer meeting he would talk to the attendees, which alas will be small.  He did know of the name Flanigan which was in the 1901 Census with Joseph Crozier.  While the hall is dated 1890, he said there was a previous building now derelict.  Hopefully he will ring me.

I also searched the newspaper archives (subscription needed) and the most recent mention was of John Crozier who placed the following ad in the Anglo-Celt (Anglo-Celt 1846-current, Saturday, October 27, 1945) OUR Lands of Carrickgorman and Greaghduff are preserved. Trespassers prosecuted—John O'Connell, John Crozier.  

No early mentions of them in our locality.

 

I also looked up http://www.irelandoldnews.com/Cavan/1859/FEB.html (free to search) and found mention of Thomas Crozier in Feb 1859 in a court case as follows: 

CROZIER v. MITCHELL

Mr. Ingram MITCHELL, of Pottle, was summoned by his late servant boy, Thomas CROZIER, of Bailieborough, for £1 1s. 2d. wages, alleged to be due but not paid. His Worship, after hearing the evidence, granted a decree for 18s., the amount found, on a more accurate calculation, to be due.

 

Best Wishes Carmel

 

Hi Ron, I have had luck in locating the family that bought the Crozier land, at least a daughter in law, so when you come, it should be no difficulty in taking you to it. I have not gone there myself, but can do so when you come. Regards Carmel