Information on Mary Archbold

Hello Terri and welcome to Ireland Reaching Out

30th December 1952 Baptism of James Archbold to Charles and Jane, Godparents were Peter H       and Kitty Cummins

Have you this Baptism record 

1852 sorry  Terri

I cannot make out the Townland name - file attached with townland name
Also attached is the Baptism record for James

Ellen' Baptism October 8th 1854

Godparents - Mick Slattery and Mary Kelly

Terri, I have searched back to Sept 1849 and have not found Mary yet

Attached is the Griffith Valuation for Bennekerry in 1852 showing 

Charles Archbold in Bennekerry, Co Carlow

Terri  have you a marriage record for Charles and Jane - January 21st 1850, Bestman Martin Byrne and Bridesmaid Eliza Cummins

On Charles Archbold's death registration in 1885 - present at death was Ellen Archbold, daughter, does this mean that Ellen never married

Thank you all.  I have these records. I am only interested in Mary Archbold, as I have the baptism records of James, Mary and Ellen, complete information (immigration, marriage, death) records for James (my great grndfather), Charles and Jane's marriage and death records.  - But nothing on Mary Archbold other than her baptism record.  I would like to locate either her marriage record and/or death record.  Apologies if my original post was not clear and thank you for taking the time to respond!

Best,

Terri D.

Possibility for a marriage of Mary Archbold 

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

A Mary Archbold married James Spencer 17th February 1875 in Dublin .with her father named as Charles Archbold ,gardener .

Have no idea if that Mary Archbold marrying in 1875 is "your " Mary Archbold but perhaps worth a look .only one I could find within the relevant time period marrying with a father Charles .

What was her fathers occupation ?

If that is her then 2 Mary Spencers  on 1901 census within that general age 

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Chur…

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Arran_Quay/St__…

2nd mary is living with husband James Spencer whilst 1st one is a widow .

Widowed Mary Spencer from 1901 census looks to be nee O Toole from birth of son Peter Spencer in 1876 .

On 1911 census just 1 Mary Spencer I could find that might fit .

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Arran_Quay/St__…

Thats the 2nd lady from 1901 census .

What seems to be the death of her husband James Spencer in 1909

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Her death I think in 1922 .

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Perhaps not the correct family but maybe worth a look .

Thank you so much for this information.  Charles Archbold, Mary's father, was listed as a "laborer" on his death record, but I will check out the information you provided.  I'm wondering if, in the mid to late 1800's in Ireland, it was common or easy for a woman to travel from her birthplace (Tinryland, County Carlow) to Dublin.  That's seems like quite a long distance but I'm trying to determine the likelihood of the Mary Archbold you cited as being my relative.  My family was very poor and it's not unusual for there not being many records of life events.  I did find her sister Ellen, married to a man named Moyles (or Myles) in 1896 in Carlow. She died in Castlemitchell, Athy Parish, County Kildare in 1907. I've been looking for Mary in that general area with no luck.

Thanks again for taking the time!

Best

Terri D

Hi Terri ,

If that is "your " Mary then perhaps she moved to Dublin for work and married there rather than returning to her home Parish .No occupation on the wedding entry though .Quick look through civil records finds no birth entrys for any of the children mentioned on 1901 census . All including Mary give their place of birth as Dublin although would take under caution as see lots of examples where people put down the wrong birthplace on 1901/1911 census .

Mary Spencer children are Jane ,Edward ,Agnes and Margaret (Maggie ) .

Your Mary Archbold mothers name was Jane but perhaps of no signifance as it was such a popular name .

Hello!

I have reviewed the record for Mary Archbold's 1875 marriage.(attached)  The actual record on Irishgenealogy.ie shows a James Day Spence as her spouse (rather than the transcribed James Spencer). The date of marriage 17 Feb 1875 makes sense in light of Mary's known birth date of 1850.   A few details are concerning, though and make me question whether this is "my"  Mary.

1. The marriage record lists her father as Charles (which is correct) but his occupation is listed as a gardener.  Other documents (including the marriage record of his other daughter, Ellen) lists his occupation as a laborer.  Ellen was married later in life in 1896. My point is that Charles most likely was not a laborer turned gardener then back to laborer again.  Might this just be a matter of semantics?

2. James Day Spence was born in England, but served in the Horse Battalion unit in Dublin (South) in 1875. The1881 England census lists James Day Spence and Mary Spence.  The ages and years are close enough, to what I would expect, but what concerns me is that Mary lists her place of birth as Johnstown, Carlow, Ireland.  "My" Mary was born in Tinryland, County Carlow and lived in Bennekerry.  I'm not familiar with the geography of Ireland but I know these places are very close but are they the same?  I'm wondering what the most common way a person would refer to their place of birth was.  If she were born in Tinryland (parish?) and lived in Bennekerry in her early years, would she refer to that location as being from Johnstown?

3. I'm still puzzled why a young lady (between 18-25 yrs old) would leave her home in Bennekerry, County Carlow and travel to Dublin South. Was this common for the day?  Is this a very long distance? What kind of work would young women of that time period be doing?  (For example, my relatives who came to Lowell, Massachusetts usually worked in the cotton mills in one capacity or another.)

A closer examination of the marriage record of Mary Archbold and James Day Spence reveals that James Day Spence was a private in the Royal Horse Artillery stationed in Dublin.  Interestingly, he is listed as a deserter on the same day as his marriage record.  Hmmm.

Further background information on the Archbold family: Charles Archbold and Jane Dunne - marry 1850 in Bennekerry, Carlow. Their son James (my great grandfather) was born in 1852 and immigrated to America @1881 and settled in Lowell, Mass.  He died in 1907.  Daughter Ellen was born in 1854 and married Christopher Myles (or Moyles) in County Queens (Laois?) in 1896. She died in 1907 in Athy Parish, CastleMitchel, Kildare. I mention all this because it seems the family did not stay in Bennekerry, other than the parents. Might this be true of Mary?

In short, I'm interested in feedback regarding any of the above information that might help me decide if Mary Day Spence and Mary Archbold are likely the same person.  I know no one can say defintively based on the records to date, but knowing more about the geography and common practices of the day in Ireland will certainly help.

I wonder did they elope to Dublin to marry ?

The desertion might be an indication of that .Was he stationed in Carlow at the time perhaps ?.Think there was a British Army Cavalry unit stationed in Carlow at the time  .

If Mary was working in Dublin would imagine there would have been some entry in the profession column .The gardener/labourer part might be just the bride giving her father a slightly higher status as imagine there was no way of the register knowing the facts .

They married in a Registry Office I think,from the cert ,which would have been not the norm at the time esp. for an RC person .

If the children were all born in England then perhaps that might explain the lack of birth records for them in Ireland .

Johnstown townland is the adjoining one to Bennekerry townland and both are within a couple of miles of Carlow town .The address on both James and Mary Archbold baptisms is Bennekerry ,parish of Tinryland .Tinryland parish encompasses Bennekerry etc .

https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/carlow/urglin/johnstown/johnstown/

Griffiths valuation c.1850 shows a Charles Archbold at 2e in Bennekerry townland .

It all seems to fit especially the "born in Johnstown " from the 1881 English census but I suppose its hard to be 100% certain .

Possibility for death of Jane Spencer ,aged 19 on 1911 Irish census ,living with her sister Margaret  and her husband Louis Maguire .

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Again if that is "your "Spencer family then there are 5 births to Louis Maguire and Margaret Spencer ;Also some possible marriages .

May 1909 (marries Joseph Conlon in 1934 in Dublin )

Samuel 1911 (marries Julia McCarthy in 1940 in Dublin )

Agnes 1914 (marries Michael Molloy in 1936 in Dublin )

Unknown 1916

James 1919 

Possibility for the death of Louis Maguire in 1948 

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Looks to have been buried in Glasnevin Cemetary 

https://www.dctrust.ie/genealogy/search.html?firstname=louis&lastname=m…

Thank you for all the research you have done.  I believe my Mary married a James Day Spence (as opposed to Spencer).  He was born in Suffolk, England 1853 and was stationed in Dublin as a member of the Royal Horse Artillery in 1875 (possibly before but definately in 1875, the year of his marriage to Mary).  He and Mary appear to have settled in Yorkshire, England in the 1890's.  I could find no children.  While this is all conjecture, you're right. It does fit.

I am attaching Mary Archbold's birth record which shows she was born in Bennekerry.  While Johnstown is close to Bennekerry it is not the same as Bennekerry, so I'm still a bit concerned that the Mary in the 1881 census who listed Johnstown, Carlow as her place of birth is not my Mary, which makes all the above information about James Spence wrong.

Hi Terri ,

Saw that baptism in Tinryland Parish Register .Bennekerry and Johnstown are adjoining townlands .Think its too much of a coincidence re the place of birth on UK census .Also the baptising priest may have filled in the address rather than the parents telling him .I live less than 5 miles from the area in question .Mary may have grown up in Johnstown and assumed she was born there .It would literally depend on which side oif the road she may have been born/lived at the time .

Think there is enough to be almost certain esp. as Archbold was/is such an uncommon name in Carlow plus with a father named Charles (despite the occupation part) .Age fits .

Have you followed up the Maguire part from 1911 Irish census ?

Quick look on Ancestry finds Margaret Spencer and Louis Maguire in 5 family trees .All give Margaret Spencer parents as James Spencer  1845 -1909 and Mary Anne Molloy 1851 - ?  who married a Robert Archbold in 1868 and James Spencer in 1884 (both marriages in Dublin)

Think the details are copied from one tree to another and the reference is the other online trees .Must have a look at them over the weekend .

Hi

One of the links you provided for Mary's possible death indicates this Mary Spencer was 19 and single and died in 1965.  This is not a fit for my Mary.  I believe her marriage record might indicate she married a James Day Spence, not Spencer.  I think following the Spencer leads might be misleading.  I'm not certain this marriage to James Day Spence reflects (record atached in an earlier correspondence)  my Mary either, but it seems to be a closer fit than the Spencer collection. 

I also found a marriage record for Mary Archbold and Thomas Fennelly (or Fennell) in 1877 in Athy, County Kildare.  This is where her sister Ellen lived (Castlemitchel) after she married in Carlow and the dates are logical. Thomas Fennelly (or Fennell) and his wife Mary show up in the 1901 English Census (no children listed).  

I love the fact that you live so close to the area. You've been very helpful in guiding me to what "data" might be correct or ignored and the possible reasons for ignoring it.  I am attaching the marriage record for Mary and Thomas (It's hard to read but the entry is on the page on the right about the middle of the photo.) Also attaching the 1901 census.

Best

Terri D.

Hi Terri 

The 1965 death record I sent you is for Jane Spencer (single aged  72 ) which would indicate a birth date of c.1893 .The Jane Spencer living with her mother Mary ,sister Margaret aand brother in law Louis Maguire on 1911 Irish census is aged 19 so born c.1892 .

Wouldn't get too hung up on the Spence/Spencer bit .Name spellings etc vary widely .On Irish civil records the transcribed entry spells his name as Spencer whilst the actual record records it as Spence .

The thing that clinches it for me is the marriage entry of 1877 .

The Mary Archbold Thomas Fennelly marriage has the brides father name as James Archbold not Charles .

If you look at the witness /bridesmaid its Mary Spencer .Could this be "your " Mary at the marriage of perhaps her 1st cousin ?.Mary Archbold marriage to James Spence(r) was two years previously ,in 1875 .

To me it does fit in .

That census entry for Thomas and Mary Fennell is 1911 and looks like the family of Thomas Fernnell who marries Mary Kelly 5th November 1901 in Ballyadams Church .

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

The address for Mary Archbold on `1877 marriage cert looks like Derryoughta .Thats a townland about halfway between Athy and Monastrevin .Its pretty close to Kilberry which was Thomas Fennell address .

A  Mary Anne Fennell reports the death of her mother Mary Archbold aged 80 ,a widow ,of Derryoughta ,in June 1881 .

See a James Archbold born 1872 in Derryoughta to a Richard Archbold and Mary Henehan .

Irish civil records site gives 115 hits for Archbold in Athy reg. district .

Hi

So if I understand your theory correctly, you believe Mary Spence(r) is likely "my" Mary and not Mary Fennelly. I would have to agree as I did not initially see the record you presented of the 1877 marriage in which Mary's father was listed as James.  You also believe the Mary Spence listed as a witness may have been "my" Mary.  That is very interesting. I did look up more information on Richard Archbold since that family may be related to the Charles Archbold family.

Children of Richard Archbold and Mary Henehan, married Feb 2, 1869

• James, born 1872 (not Mary's father, since the dates don't line up. He's only 5 at the time of her wedding)
• John, born 1880
• Richard, born 1882
• Mary, born 1885
• Catherine, born 1890

On Richard and Mary's wedding record of1869, it lists a James Archbold as Richard's father and Mary Archbold as a witness. "My" Mary would have been around 19 at this time but I suppose it could also be Richard's mother. A guess at his father James' date of birth would be sometime in the early to mid 1830's. (Richard marries in 1869 - assuming he's at least 18, puts his birth around 1851. James, then would have to had been born around 1833 or so.  I know dates are a bit unreliable but without documentation, I just have to guess.  

My head is spinning a bit but I think we're close to solving this.  Just need to find the connection between the 1830's James Archbold and my Charles Archbold families.

Best,

Terri D

Apologies, but I'm not following your line of thought as it relates to Louis MaGuire?

Charles Archbold marries Jane Dunne in Tinryland in 1849 .He is most likely 20 plus so born 1810 to 1830 .His death cert indicates a birth year of c.1819 .

You think he was from Kildare originally .

Richard Archbold from Derryoughta who marries Mary Henehan looks to have been born c. 1842 (death cert says aged 52 in 1894 ).Father is James Archbold from marriage entry .

Mary Archbold from Derryoughta marries Thomas Fennell(y) in 1877 .Father is James Archbold .Mary was born before 1856 as full age on marriage .

To me it looks like Richard and Mary are siblings but perhaps cousins .Their father James (if they are siblings ) would have to have been born c.1820 or so 

Mary bridesmaid is Mary Spencer .

I wonder was Charles Archbold and James Archbold brothers ?

That would leave your "missing " Mary Archbold and Richard/Mary from Derryoughta 1st cousins .The Mary Spencer bridesmaid at the Archbold/Fennelly wedding in 1877 looks too much of a coincidence otherwise in my opinion .

You say you found Charles Day Spence and Mary on 1881 English census with her saying born Johnstown .Again unlikely unless she is the Mary Archbold daughter of Charles who marries James in Dublin in 1875 but again anything is possible Ii suppose .Have you found them on later census in England or birth of any children .

Back to Charles Archbold .He names his son (your great grandfather ) James .Likely but not definite he would call his first born son after his father .

The Maguire bit ?

If James Spence(r) and Mary Archbold returned to Ireland then the most likely candidate on the 1901/1911 census would be those at house 5 St Thomas Avenue ,Arran Quay in Dublin in 1901 and 1911 .

If so then it looks likely that Margaret Spencer ,daughter of James Spencer and Mary Archbold ,marries Louis Maguire in 1908.

On the other hand online trees would indicate that Louis Maguire mother in law (Mary Spencer on 1911 census) was Mary Molloy .A Mary Molloy had married a Richard Archbold in 1868 in Dublin .He must have died as she subsequently marries a James Spencer in 1884 in Dublin .

Thing is to see if its possible to figure out which James and Mary Spencer are the ones on 1901 Irish census .If they are James and Mary Molloy then the Maguire bit is redundant from your point of view .

Hi

Thanks so much for spelling this all out for me. I will do more research into the 1901 census.  It does seem odd to me that I can't find children of Mary Archbold since she was young enough when married (as opposed to her sister who was a spinter when married  at age 42.) 

Best

Terri D

In viewing the Household Return form tor the 1901 Irish Census for James Spenser, it indicates Mary Spenser was born in Dublin City (I think.) It's a bit hard to make out the handwriting but I think that's what it says.  If so, this is not my Mary.

I do have census records in England for 1861 through and including 1911.

1861 James Spencer is living in Southwold, Suffolk, England - his birthplace. Same for 1871.

Sometime in the 1870's he was a private in the Royal Horse Battalion in Dublin South

1875 he married Mary Archbold, possible and most likely "my" Mary

1881 he was living in  Lancashire (Liverpool) England married to Mary Spencer, occupation bricklayer

1891 he was living in Kingston upon Hull, Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England as a general laborer Census inddicates May was born in Ireland.

1901 he was a dock laborer living in Sculcoates, married to Mary Spencer

1911 listed as a "former dock laborer" he was an inmate in the Sculcoates Union Workhouse - no mention of Mary, yet James' status is listed as married not widower. I find this confusing but I've seen it before where the husband goes to a workhouse and the wife is still alive. Not sure how common this is.

James' possible death record - December 1926 buried in St Peter's Churchyard, Rylstone, Craven District, North Yorkshire, England.  Wife listed as Mary Spencer. This cemetery is an Anglican cemetery (as opposed to Roman Catholic) so not sure if this is the right burial place, despite everything else fitting. 

I believe this is the James Spence(r) that married Mary Archbold in Dublin in 1875. He was originally from England, she from Ireland.  More research to do to be more certain, but I think I might be in the right track.

Re: the Maguire connection, I found the Spencer family in the 1901 Irish Census. Looking at the actual record, it seems that all were born in Dublin City, including Mary Spencer.  I then found Margaret Maguire in the 1911 Irish Census and looked at the other family members living at the residence: husband Loius, daughter Mary, mother-in-law and widow Mary Anne Spencer, sister-in-law Jane Spencer (Margaret's sister).  This Mary Anne Spencer appears to be Mary Anne Molloy, I found her marriage record to Robert Archbold in Dublin City - so the Dublin City connection holds for this family. I also found her marriage record to James Spencer in 1884 Dublin.  The actual record reads Mary Anne Archbold nee Molloy, a widow. I think I can rule out this family.

Best

Terri D

If the James and Mary Spencer living at 5 Thomas Street in Dublin on 1901 census are your Mary Archbold and her husband then it looks likely they had at least one older child .
An Anne Spencer of that address marries William Chase 20th January 1901 in Dublin .
Also the Agnes Spencer aged 16 on 1901 census looks to have married Richard Heeney on 9th June 1909 in Dublin

Looking again see likely baptism for Agnes Spencer in January 1881gives mother as Mary Molloy so that more or less rules out the Spencer family on Thomas Street as that of Mary Archbold

I agree. I am fairly confident the Mary Archbold who married James Day Spence(r) is my relative.  I believe they met in Dublin (I may never know why she was in Dublin rather than Bennekerry), married, then eventually moved to England and settling in Sculcoates in Yorkshire County.  I found a 1911 census which lists a married James Spence 60 yrs old residing in the Sculcoates Workhouse (Ancestry.com) but no mention of Mary. I also found a death record but I'm not sure if it's him since the location seems to be quite a distance from Sculcoates (attached.) 

Perhaps she went to Dublin to work .A lot of girls/women would have gone there to work in service .Unusual though that there is nothing listed under occupation on her marriage cert .Usually see that with females who were living at home and not working outside the family home .

Could he have been stationed in Carlow Barracks I wonder ?

Yes, he was stationed at the Portobello Barracks, currently the Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines, Dublin South at the time of their marriage.  I'm trying to determine how long he was in the Royal Horse Battallion, since I've read this was a 12 year committment - a certain number of years active and a certain number in the reserves.  It's more out of curiosity. I found a pensioners record for 1880, which, if I'm correct, indicates the end of his service.  Not sure.

I'm also re-thinking my estimate of Mary's father, Charles Archbold's, birth.  This is because I can find no evidence of his birth between 1918 and 1920 or so and was basing the 1819 dob on his age at death.  I understand your comment about people's ages not being known as they are today so I'm taking another look. The only record I find is dated 1834 in Ballyfarsoon in the parish/district of Monasterevin.  Interestingly his father is listed as James Archbold and mother Ellen Carroll.  Two of Charles' children's names were James and Ellen (although the oldest girl was Mary).  Hmmm.  The only problem with this new theory of a 1834 dob is that puts him at age 15 at his marriage in 1850, for which I do have a record.  That's unusual I would imagine but not unheard of.  I'm pursuing this along with looking for records for Jane Dunne, his wife, since the 1815 birth record I have for her may be incorrect.   

Relative to your earlier theory that my Charles Archbold and James Achbold (of the Mary Fennelly records) may be brothers, I further researched the James Archbold mentioned in the 1834 Charles Archbold birth record to see if James had other children named James.  James A and Ellen Carroll had 4 children in Kildare: "my" Charles b. 1834 in Ballyfarsoon, Mary b. 1838 in Derryoughta, Bridget b. 1841 in Clonegath, and another Mary b. 1844 in Oghil (I know names were often reused so looking for a death record for 1838 Mary).  No mention of another James so perhaps they were cousins, or I have the wong family.  I agree, there is a relation somewhere.

When Charles' son James (my G, G Grandfather) came to America, the name changed to Archibald, which is my maiden name.

Again, thank you for your research and insights. They are really helping me see things differently.

Best,

Terri D.