John Black and family Donegal

Fiona,

If Elizabeth was born c 1797 in Co. Donegal, then she probably married in the 1820s.  You haven’t said what denomination she was but in general few churches in Donegal have records back that far. It may be difficult to find anything about the couple from Irish records.

Your best bet for getting her maiden name may be if she died in Scotland. It should be recorded on her death certificate.

I note that Tomas Black was alive in 1867. If Elizabeth alone was living in Scotland in 1871, I wondered if Thomas had died in the intervening years. There are plenty of Thomas Black deaths in Ireland in that period, but none in Donegal. So drew a blank there.

Dear Elwin,

Thank you for researching this for me.

Elizabeth's maiden surname is on the wedding certificate I sent along with my initial message and I wondered if you could read it?

I have looked at deaths in Scotland but cannot find her or Thomas

Kind regards

Fionah

Fionah,

No I can’t read the surname clearly enough. It begins with an H and ends with ill or ell but I wouldn’t like to say more than that. (Harwell or Hamill perhaps?). What you can do is e-mail Scotlandspeople attaching a copy of the image and explain you are having difficulty reading it. They are pretty good at helping. They may send you a better image, and if necessary they sometimes get the original out and see if they can see what the surname is from that. They do that free, so it’s worth trying.

Thank you Elwin, I have contacted Scotlands People and received a much clearer copy.

Elizabeth's maiden surname is Maxwell.

Does that help look for them or not as you said there were no Thomas Blacks in Donegal?

Kind regards Fionah

Fionah,

Thinking about John Black’s death again, it occurred to me that the 1871 census should record Elizabeth’s marital status. Should be “Mar” is she was married and “W” or “Wid” if her husband was dead. What does it say? That way I will know which side of 1871 to search for John’s death.

Knowing that Elizabeth’s maiden name was Maxwell is helpful but we still face the problem that not all churches in Donegal have records for the 1820s and 1830s when they probably married.

I searched the 1901 census of Co Donegal and there were 140 people named Maxwell. 4 were RC, 16 were Presbyterian and the remainder were Church of Ireland. So if you don’t know the family denomination, then statistically they seem likely to have been Church of Ireland. 

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church and then she would attend her husband’s church. So marriage and subsequent baptism of children are not always in the same church.

I looked at the surname Black in Donegal. There were 135 in the 1901 census. Every single one was Presbyterian. So my guess here is that Elizabeth may have married in the Church of Ireland and their children would then be baptised in a Presbyterian church.

I looked for Elizabeth’s death in Scotland (now knowing that her maiden name was Maxwell). I did not find it. So I wondered if she had died in Ireland. I searched the deaths 1871 – 1901 and found 1 that might be your lady:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1881/06430/4847557.pdf

She died 15.8.1881 at Lisnaree townland in Stranorlar’s registration area. She was 86 (which is about right) and was the widow of John Black labourer. The informant was Martha Black of Lisnaree.

I looked at Griffiths Valuation for Lisnaree in 1857 and there is a John Black listed there. He had a labourers cottage and a garden of 25 perches (40 perches in a rood, and 4 roods in an acre). That was on William Finlay’s farm. Today that’s on the R236 road between Convoy and Stranorlar. There were no Blacks listed there in 1901.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

So if I have found the right family, then the local Church of Ireland churches in that area are: Convoy (marriages from 1845, baptisms from 1871. Earlier records lost in the 1922 fire in Dublin). Kilteevogue, (baptisms from 1818 and marriages from 1845), and Stranorlar, (baptisms from 1802 and marriages from 1821).

So if you are looking for the couple’s marriage, the only 1 of the 3 with any records is Stranorlar. Might be worth checking it.

For local Presbyterian records (childrens baptisms, and perhaps the couples marriage) Convoy has baptisms from 1822, marriages from 1845; Stranorlar has baptisms from 1821 and marriages from 1846.

There are also two Reformed Presbyterian churches in the area (sometimes known as Covenanters) but neither has any records for the period you need.

You could try rootsireland who have some Portestant records on their site (subscription) but I suspec you are not going to find most of the above records on-line. However there are copies, for both denominations, in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. They are not on-line there and you either need to go in person or get a researcher to do that for you.

Incidentally if the family was Presbyterian and lived in Donegal that indicates they are most probably descended from Scots who settled there in the 1600s. But possibly you knew that anyway.

Let me know about Elizabeth’s marital status in 1871 and I’ll have another look for John’s death. I do now see one in 1870 aged 78, in the Stranorlar area, which could be him. But it’s not viewable on line free yet, so I’d like to know whether he was likely to be alive in 1870 before suggesting you order a copy of it.

Dear Elwyn,

I haven't read your information yet but wanted to quickly get onto Elizabeth's status which is a widow.

I have sent you the clearer marriage certificate of John Black and Jane Caldwell.

I know that John was married according to the Church of scotland.

I will read your information asap and reply to any other questions you ask.

Kind Regards
Fionah

Fionah,

Yes it struck me that the reason that Elizabeth might have joined her children in Scotland was that she had been widowed. There’s a death of a John Black registered in Stranorlar in Oct-Dec 1879, Volume 17, page 243. He was aged 78, so born c 1792 (though ages on death certificates were only a guess and that might be out by anything up to 10 years). But he’s of the right age to be Elizabeth’s husband and he died between 1867 (when we know your John was alive) and 1871 (when we know he was dead). So that fits.

You can order a photocopy of the civil certificate from GRO Roscommon for €4 (euros).  http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx

You have to download and print off the form. Then either post or fax it. You can’t e-mail your order to them. However if you want them to e-mail the cert to back to you, they will do that, so tick the relevant box.

The informant on Elizabeth’s death certificate in 1881 was Martha Black of the same townland. Does that name fit with your knowledge of the family?

Re John’s marriage, tradition (in Scotland as well as Ireland) was to marry in the bride’s church, so it tells you Jane Caldwell was most probably Church of Scotland (ie Presbyterian). It doesn’t actually tell you John was too. Though he might have been.