John Cruickshank and wife Elizabeth (nee McElwaine)

Jenny,

The 1901 Irish census records the Cruikshank family as Presbyterian.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Bailieboro/Lisba…

Note that there was a McIlwaine family living next door, also Presbyterian, so that may be Elizabeth’s family. There was also a Susan Cruickshank farming on her own nearby. She lived alone but described her relationship as “daughter”. Suspect she’s probably part of the family. (She might be Thomas’s daughter).

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Bailieboro/Lisba…

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Bailieboro/Lisba…

Presbyterianism is consistent with Scottish origins. It was founded in Scotland in the 1500s and brought to Ireland by Scots settlers. (In Scotland the family would be Church of Scotland). The majority of Scots settlers came to Ireland in the 1600s.

Anne Jane’s birth in 1866:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

For births prior to 1864 and marriages prior to 1845 you normally rely on church records. There are 2 Presbyterian churches in Bailieborough (Bailieboro 1st & 2nd). Bailieborough 1st’s baptisms start 1861. The 2nd’s start in 1863. Neither has any marriage records before April 1845. So the chances are that there are no records for John & Elizabeth’s marriage nor of their children’s births. Presbyterians don't generally keep burial records and so if Elizabeth died before Jan 1864 there may be no record of that, unless she has a gravestone.

Griffiths Valuation for 1856 lists John & Thomas Cruikshank both farming in Lisball. Thomas had plot 3 which was a farm, outbuildings and just under 14 acres. John had plot 28 which was a house, forge and 14 acres.

Thomas Cruikshanks, farmer, of Lisball died 4th Feb 1882. Probate was granted in Dublin to Hugh Cruikshank, sub-constable RIC, of Belfast. Thomas was 76.

http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/home.jsp

Not all Presbyterian churches have graveyards. If you can’t find gravestones in either of the 2 churches I have mentioned, I would try the Church of Ireland followed by any other graveyards in the area. There’s no requirement to record where someone is buried in Ireland, so sometimes it’s just a question of searching graveyards in the general area. Farmers could usually afford a gravestone so you would expect there to be some for this family.

I did a search on an on-line newspaper site but could not find any mentions of this family.

CRUICKSHANKS

Thankyou so much Elwyn for your informative reply to my Cruickshank family request .I think due to the limited documents available, I am not going to get any further with the Irish part of the  Cruickshank family .The fact that none of them  had  CRUICKSHANK DESCENDANTS really complicates it. Even Hugh Cruickshank (son of Eliz and John ) had no descendants in N.Y.stste U.S.A. He had 3 children but NO GRANDCHILDREN !! 

Ann- Jane's mother, Jane Cruickshank, had 8 children here in Australia. (5 survived) 

 I think I said earlier that John Cruickshank was born in 1804 actually he died in 1877 aged 78 so was born in 1799,- not that that helps our situation !! Perhaps  from the Griffiths Valuation we can guess that Thomas Cruickshank may have been  John's brother ?? 

Susan Cruickshank in Lisball may have been Thomas' daughter .Any chance of her having a death certificate?  She is 69 in 1911. 

McElwaines

Yes the next door Lisball McElwaines will be related to Elizabeth but no chance of finding how close. I would think it could  be her brother ,or the family of her uncle, at best. We will never know.

In an 1888 letter I have here it says Richard McElwaine is 'moving back' to Lisball and is a 'teacher' ( tallies with Lisball Census information) There were 3 doctors from one  McElwaine family Robert ( Baileborough) Tomas (sic) and Patrick.. In 1888 Tomas and Patrick were just finishing their studies.Robert was a doctor  in Baileborough for a long time, I wonder if there is any information about him Elwyn like his obituary ,death certificate /entry, or article about him in the Anglo Celt. He would have been well known in Baileborough. I have nothing about him, but thought it may give us  his father's name or his siblings somewhere !! I believe his father  may have been 'John'  or Thomas McElwaine. The Irish death certificates give so little information.

Would  there be any Lisball National School records? for teachers or pupil names . A new school was built in 1863.Anne- Jane and John Cruilshank would have attended that.

Because I am here in Aust it is of course unlikely I will ever get over again to search the local graveyards  for a  Cruickshank tombstone. You would think by the time Ann- Jane CChambers (nee Cruickshank) died in 1944 there was som trace of where she may be buried. Her funeral would have been at Trinity church in Baileborough.  

In the June 2 and 9 in the Anglo Celt there is a court case reported where John Cruickshank is challenging his niece Ann- Jane for the money left to her by John's sister Ellen Cruickshank. 

I have the two census' information, I have the Griffiths valuations from 1856-948 of their land. 

I guess I will just have to be grateful that I have managed to find what I have..Thank you so very much for your help and interest and finding all the documents you did Elwyn,

must close off now, Jenny  

Jenny,

Here’s what looks to be Susan’s death at Termon in 1925. The informant was her nephew Thomas.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Note that the preceding death was an 8 month old Thomas Harrison Cruikshank.

Thomas Cruikshanks in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Termon/Termon/31…

Thomas & Elizabeth were a bit old to be having children in 1925 so I am not quite sure who the parents of that child were. (Births for 1925 are not on-line). I can’t find Thomas & Lizzie’s marriage, nor his birth to see who his father was.

Regarding School attendance records, they can be found on the Findmypast site. The originals are in the National Archives in Dublin. See:

https://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/Nat_Schools/natschs.html

I found Dr Robert McElwaine’s death in Bailieborough in1937 aged 80.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Here he is in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Bailieboro/Main_…

And in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Bailieborough/Ba…

You’ll see from the 1911 that he took his degree at Queens University, Belfast.

I had a look for newspaper articles about him but couldn’t find any.

You mentioned Richard McElwaine was a teacher. Here he is:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Bailieborough/Li…

I also found a Henry, living just along the street from Dr Robert:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Bailieborough/Ba…

I assume he was a part-time teacher. 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Bailieboro/Main_…

I looked for Dr Tomas. Couldn’t find him but did find a Thomas who was from Cavan and was a carpenter:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Glasnevin/Glasn…

I couldn’t see Dr Patrick either. Perhaps they left Ireland?

Good morning again Elwyn, once again thank you so much for the waelth of information you have foundon Susan and the McElwaines. I have added it to my story. 

I have been reading the information in the letters from Lisball and perhaps a few clues of the parentage of Elizabeth nee McElwaine !! 

In the 1888 letter 'uncle Alick (?Alec) died aged 78 in Feb 1888 .I would guess that record would be in the Baileborough records The attending doctor was Robert McElwaine. ! (May be Alec McElwaine or Cruikshank.)

They mention 'uncle John'  and wife in 1888.

Richard McElwaine is building a new house on 'jemy the rocks'  land so will be neighbours of Cruickshanks. (we saw that on the Lisball census return Elwyn) 

'Poor Johnny's death' in 1870.

I was wondering if there would be death certificates for  Richard McElwaine (B 1855 -from census age) and wife Jane's  death in Baileborough

Death certificate of Henry McElwaine (B 1867 - from census age) and wife Margaret?  

Would John (D 1877),James (D 1915) or Lizzie (D 1915) Cruikshank's wills be on line ? or the McElwaine  boys? 

You mentioned John and Thomas Cruickshank were on the Griffiths valuation records. (?1856) Do you have the Allotment number for Thomas and who took it over after him?

Must stop now, but thought the 'uncle' mentions in the letters  may give us a clue to the earlier generation of John and Elizabeth Cruickshank !! 

I am so indebted to you Elwyn for your skills and interest. Thank you so much for everything. Your knowledge is amazing. 

Jenny 

Jenny,

Uncle Alick was Alexander Cruikshank. His age, on the death certificate anyway, was 67. (Ages then were often just guesses). He was a bachelor and lived at Lisball.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Poor John who died in 1870 may have been a John Cruikshanks aged 14. Death certificates for 1870 are not on-line free yet. If you want to see that certificate you have to order it from GRO Roscommon. A photocopy should cost €4.

Richard McElwaine’s death in 1925:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

This looks like Jane’s death in 1933. Place of death was Greaghadossan, I think:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Death of Henry in 1948:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Margaret’s death in 1956:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

I searched for wills for John, James & Lizzie Cruikshanks but without success. Not every will needs probate and it’s possible that their estates were wound up without needing probate, in which case no copy of the will was kept in the Public Record office. Here’s a link to the website for wills up to 1920. You can search it for the McElwaines.

http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/home.jsp

Bingo Elwyn, we have found one relative of John Cruickshank - his brother Alexander !!  Thankyou so much for all your wonderful help. I do not believe we can go back  any further or sideways for more sibling names or generations at all. I think we have gone as far as we can go with the Cruickshanks, and the McElwaines !!

They are still in a confused and unfinished state but that will be how they will have to  remain I think, sadly. I cannot believe how many of them remained single - just to tease us !! Was so interesting to get all of those McElwaine death certificates., thankyou so much,  I believe the father of Robert, Henry and maybe Richard McElwaine, could be Elizabeth Cruickshank's brother ,so they (if in fact they are brothers!) will be her nephews.I guess I will never know. 

Their Scottish connection is not very far back  I believe , judging from entries and information found in the U.S.A. They write 'Sottish/Irish' in a few places. 

The son of Eliz and John Cruickshank - Hugh Cruikshank, who emigrated to the U.S.A. in 1857 .(aged 19) I can find out quite a bit about his life there. His three children died childless before him. He was a wealthy well known figure in Carthage.

Once again there are little tid bits of information in the newspapers,1. he left money to 'Fred and Clara Cruikshank'. (their brother William had died earlier) They are children of Dr William Cruikshank.

2. Another newspaper article relates how a John Young Cruikshank lawyer (bachelor) was murdered by one of his clients. It states he is a cousin of Hugh and John Cruikshank !! It MUST be a cousin of Hugh (not his son John) 

3  1916; in the local newspaper ; Dr James Cruikshank, retired principal of Brooklyn School ....'relative of the late Hugh Cruikshank' 

4. Hugh's son John, was a newspaper 'Watertown Times' editor.So again very well known .

So Elwyn, frustratingly I guess this is the end of the family story.  

I don't think it is worth getting the death certificate of 'poor Johnny .I don't think it will give us any background facts !! 

Did you manage to see what Lisball allot Thomas Cruickshank was on in the Griffiths Valuations, and who continued farming  that allotment after him? 

With my best wishes and thanks again, Jenny Gellatly 

If I find anything more that may help me I will give send you a note. 

I have actually written to a 'Percy McElwaine in Canada asking for his Lisball family connections.  His email address is 'Lisball'!!  He is now fairly old, so I may not get a response at all. 

Jenny,

It’s quite common to find that families like your record themselves as Scotch/Irish in censuses in the US, Canada and elsewhere.

Regarding the Scottish/Irish origins, the vast majority of Scots settlers came to Ireland in the 1600s. Something like 200,000 Scots settled in Ireland then (mainly in the counties of Ulster, which includes Cavan). That represents something like a fifth of the entire Scottish population at that time. Some came as part of the Planation of Ulster in the early 1600s but a lot came in the 1690s due to famine in Scotland. By the 1700s they were starting to leave Ireland (for the US, Canada and elsewhere), so whilst it’s perfectly possible that your family came in the 1700s, that would have been bucking the trend. Statistically they are likely to have arrived in the 1600s. That they have a Scottish surname (ie Cruikshank), were Presbyterian and lived in Cavan all fits with that background.

According to MacLysaght’s Surnames of Ireland, McIlwaine: “In Ulster, where it is numerous, MacIlwaine may be the Scottish McIlvaine or another form of McIlveen.” Your McIlwaine family were again Presbyterian so that seems to confirm Scots origins for them too.

Many Scots settlers looked down on the native Irish, and so tended to marry with other Scots. There were marriages with locals of course but sufficient married each other for several hundred years that they kept their separate identity. (Perhaps a little like the Amish or Mennonites?). So even though they may have been living in Ireland for 200 years, in the 1800s they perceived themselves as Scotch-Irish. (In Ireland today they tend to be called Ulster – Scots). Many still feel that way today, and don’t particularly see themselves as Irish, which is largely why Northern Ireland remains part of the UK. But that’s really a discussion for another time and place!

Regarding who took over from Thomas in Griffiths Valuation, the records for Cavan are not on-line yet. They are called the cancelled books or sometimes the revision records. They are held in the Valuation Office in Dublin. They go right up to 1930, and beyond in some cases. You need to contact them and ask them to look the records up. https://www.valoff.ie/en/archive-research/

They’ll be closed at the moment due to Covid but may re-open some time in the next couple of months.

Hello again Elwyn, once again thankyou for your very interesting and informative message re my search. I was interested to hear of the explanation of the Scottish /Irish U.S. census entry .I thought they would have come over in the 1600's and was most suprised to learn that they still so strongly wanted to be known as Scottish/Irish so many generations on. Yes I realise the problems between north and south still. They were certainly fiercly Presbyterian even over here !! Methodists wern't even good enough !! It was a 'mixed marriage' 

I can add some 'flesh on the bones' of my story with that  interesting background information. 

I had just noticed that when the wealthy farmer/ business man  Hugh Cruikshank (no C in his spelling) returned from U.S. to visit his Lisball family, he was often in Scotland and Glasgow too.

I won't bother to go any further with Susan Cruickshank's land ownership. I guess there will be no will for her.

I was wondering if Anne-Jane (died in 1944) would have a will or is it too early and not on line yet. She probaly left her assetts to her husband John James Chambers who died in 1955. So frustrating to think that there is no burial information recorded even in 1955 ! I am sure they would have a smart and 'newish' gravestone still now.  I wonder who his informant was seeing as he was widowed and they had no chiildren. He was born on 27th May 1873 at Gartenane Cavan. Seems his ? parent or brother also 'John James and 'Willy' died in about 1870 (1870 Cruickshank letter information) We may get a clue where the Chambers may have lived or been buried !!! 

Would there be a way to find out when the youngest Cruickshank sibling - John Cruickshank  the 'poor blackmith' bachelor in Lisball  died ? He was 38 on 1901, Census and 48 on 1911.  The informant's name would be interesting too. again there were no children . His will would have been interesting. I don't think he had much to leave. He didn't OWN a home. He had fought his niece Anne-Jane Cruikshank in court over his sibling, Ellen Cruickshank's assetts in 1917. I wonder why this altercation over the assetts took place 12 years after his sibling, Ellen's death (in 1905).James and Lizzie Cruickshank - John's siblings, both died in 1915 (and left the Lisball land to Anne- Jane I believe. .Perhaps it occured  at the time of dealing with their dispersements.

So many unanswered questions. We did not ask enough questions when the older generation was still alive. My generation did not even know of Anne Jane existence even though her 8 half siblings were born here !! I am a midwife and saw at the delivery of her 'first child' here in Melbourne that it was her SECOND child. And being a midwife, know how carefully and accurately you fill out that legal documenation at birth. .So then the hunt was on to find the 'first child' So we have come a long way really. 

Thanks again Elwyn, I really can;t thank you enough. You make it look so easy !! Jenny  

Jenny,

You can search for wills up to 1982 on-line on this site:

http://www.cigo.ie/pages/guide-to-wills-and-administrations/

Note that the records are filed by the year in which probate was granted. That’s not always the year the person died. Sometimes there are delays and probate is not granted for a year or two after death (In extreme cases I have seen delays of 30 years). So start with the year of death and then work forward year by year.

Not every will requires probate. If the estate was/is movable or in joint names then there was no need to obtain probate and can be wound up by the executor without a copy of the will going to the Probate Registry.

I had a look for Ann Jane in 1944. She did not leave a will and died intestate. The abstract (summary) states “Administration of the estate of Anne J Chambers late of Lisbull Co. Cavan, married woman, who died 21.Jan 1944 granted at Dublin to John J. Chambers, farmer, Effects £93.” So there should be a probate file in Dublin, but no will. Her estate will have been distributed in accordance with intestacy law. So, I think in this case, with no dependent children it probably all went to her husband.

Regarding burial records in Ireland it’s never been a requirement to record where someone is buried. So that information doesn’t appear on death certificates or in any other official record, even today. If there’s a gravestone then you can get the information that way but not all gravestones have been transcribed and put on-line. And not all are legible. Sometimes you just have to visit the graveyards and go round and search. If there are nay descendants still in the area they should have an idea where the family graves are.

Here’s a link to John James Chambers’ death. It was in 1950 (not 1955). The informant was his brother of 34 1st Avenue, Blyth, Northumberland. (England, if that’s not obvious).

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

John Chambers also died intestate. Probate abstract: “22nd September. Administration of the Estate of John J Chambers late of Bailieborough Co Cavan farmer (retired) who died 25 June 1960 granted at Dublin to Robert Chambers, merchant. Effects £1197 11s 4d.”

Again that would have been distributed according to intestacy law. Since he was a widower, it probably was split between any children, and/or any surviving siblings.

I looked for a death for John Cruikshank the poor blacksmith but could not find it. (I only searched the Bailieborough registration area. If he had moved it might be hard to find him). However I did find a marriage for him in 1911 to Mary Gray, also of Lisball:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

Going by the place of marriage, Mary’s family were Church of Ireland (ie Anglican).

Mary in the 1911 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Bailieborough/Li…

I don’t see a death for Mary either so perhaps they moved away from the area?

Top marks again Elwyn ,so much extra information once again . Can't believe both  Anne- Jane or her husband died intestate !! Grrrrr

Is John Chamber's brother name ? T.S.Chambers? (present at death) Is the address of the brother 34 Ist Ave Blyth Northumberland?? Is that in Ireland?I see John died in 'main St Baileborough perhaps there was aslo a hospital in the 'well known to me' ;Main Street of Baileborough !! 

It seems  like the family  set out to block any one ever following them up  historically !! No descendants , no relatives !! 

Disappointingly I  see on John Cruikshank's 1911 wedding entry he states his father is JAMES Cruikshank  'blacksmith'

.In our  family John's father  should  have been  John Cruikshank, so I am wondering if this John Cruikshank  is a child of John and Elizabeth.

Our John, did have a bachelor brother a  'blacksmith' named James. 

As mentioned earlier, I do know John and Elizabeth C had a son John C who fought his niece Anne Jane in the court  for his sister Ellen's dispersements  in 1917 as reported in th 'Anglo Celt'  

I was thinking if Mary Gray was 31 when she married this John Cruikshank 48, in 1911 there could  well have been descendants .... heaven forbid it would be that easy !! !! 

I have a hunch  the old John Cruickshank  possibly  had a brother named James Cruickshank..

I will look up the will site soon but do not hold out much hope of there being any helpful information for me ! 

Once again Elwyn I cannot thank you enough for your expertise  persistence and interest in helping me. take care and keep well ,Jenny  

Jenny,

Blyth, Northumberland is in England (I did mention that it was in England in my previous reply). It’s a small seaport in a mining area north of Newcastle-on Tyne, near the border with Scotland.

Yes I read the brother’s name as T.S. Chambers. There’s a “Thomas” further down the page written in the same handwriting and so I am fairly sure the first initial is T. I read the address as 34 1st Avenue, Blyth. (The street still exists. I checked on Google maps). John James Chambers in 1911 with his parents, who had had 7 children, 6 of whom were still alive:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Bailieborough/Ga…

Robert had married Anna Martin in 1872:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

They had a son Thomas Stewart Chambers in 1882 so that’ll be the informant for John James’ death in 1950.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

Likely death for Thomas S Chambers in Durham April 1955. Durham NW District page1a Volume 528. (English deaths aren’t viewable on-line and you have to pay to get a copy). Costs £4.

John James Chambers looks to have died at home. If he had died in hospital it would say “X hospital/nursing home etc”, plus his usual address would appear under his name. That hasn’t happened here, so he died at home. By way of example, look at the death here for James Plunkett on 6th Jan 1950. He died in the Mater Private Home in Dublin, and his normal address (Summerhill, Co. Meath) is given under his name:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

I found a daughter to John Cruikshanks and Mary Gray. Margaret Ellen Cruikshank was born at Lisball 8th September 1913:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

I don’t know what became of the family after that. I looked to see if they are in anyone’s on-line tree, but they are not. There is a death for a John Cruikshanks of about the right age in that area, in 1928 but the occupation is farmer not blacksmith, and the informant was a son named Earl. The townland/address is Druitmon but I cannot identify that place. If this is the same John who married in 1911, then he hadn’t really been married long enough to have a son who could be the informant. Can’t find a birth for Earl, nor can I find him in the 1911 census. All a bit of a mystery.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Hello again Elwyn, despite all your skills, patience and wonderful searching, I believe we have reached the end of finding any information on any of them. Due to lack of marriages or descendants, we have met a wall.

The only Cruickshank siblings that had any descendants were Jane here in Australia (mother of illegitimate Anne- Jane.)  and William and wife Rebecca Martin. (also from Lisball) They married here. Sibling Hugh Cruikshank in Carthage Jefferson Co N.Y State had three children. Only one married (no children) He outlived the three of his childless children. I will now have to try and tie up McElwaines and Cruickshanks there to him. 'Cousins' to him are mentioned !! I believe his father John had a brother William Cruikshank back in Lisball. His son was John Young Cruikshank ( bachelor lawyer) who was murdered by one of his clients .In the obituary it states he is a cousin of Hugh and his son John ( just to confuse us again)

I guess there is no sign ever of a James or William Cruikshank in the Cavan area. They too would be born about 1800. John Cruikshank was born about 1799. 

We are unable to match Elizabeth (nee McElwaine ) with the Lisball McElwaine family. 

You have 'rung out' any helpful Chambers information. A huge thank you again A huge thankyou for all Elwyn. I am disappointed and just not meant to find anything about them !!  If we had asked questions of the earlier generations we may have had some answers. Jenny 

Glad to have helped.

Hello Elwyn, you may be horrified to see me after more information but you were so helpful last time I thought you may be able to find information on  the McELWAINE side of the (Cruikshank) family this time. Just to refresh you, John Cruikshank (born about 1800) married Elizabeth nee McElwaine. I have information on a Lisgar  McElwaine family, and wondering if there is any information on them further back to try and tie them up with Elizabeth. (? a sibling of  Lisgar John) 

You may recall, the  McElwaine family of Doctors are mentioned in an 1888 Cruikshank letter to Australia and the family ( teacher Richard) were Lisball neighbours of the Cruikshanks.I feel that the fact this family was of interest to the Cruickshanks  may indicate a relationship with their mother Elizabeth. (she was deceased by 1863) 

At Lisgar John McElwaine (farmer - I do not know his wife's name) had the following children William,and  John  both bachelors and farmers , Richard, (teacher at Lisball School)  Robert,  Patrick Thomas -(3 doctors). Patrick and Thomas went to practise in England ,and Robert stayed in Bailborough ,and  their sister Eliza. These  Lisgar McElwaine children were  born between 1853 and 1874 born in Lisgar. 

Richard 1853,Robert 1857,Thomas 1859,Patrick 1864,William 1867, John 1868 and Eliza, 1874.I don't suppose there are any birth entries of these. The only ones of these seven who  married were Richard (teacher) and Patrick (Eng)  he married Charlotte from Lisburn Antrim .I am not sure about Eliza in the Lisgar Census 1901 she was 37 and single. She is missing from the 1911 Lisgar family census  

I have the 1901 and 1911 Lisgar Census for the family but nothing else.  

My questions are 1. do you have any evidence / information on John McElwaine of Lisgar? I am guessing from the ages of his children he was probably born about 1820 ?? Any wife / sibling information 

                              2 What was Eliza McElwaine's 's fate? marriage or death.

                              3.  marriages of Richard and Patrick (he may have married Charlotte in England) 

Any  gems of information you may be able Elwyn would be just wonderful.

There was another family of McElwaines in Lisball , William, Henry, Martha, John and James. I do not think there is any proveable connection to those. I have the 1901 and 1911 Census forms of Henry a hardware merchant and teacher Baileborough. Sorry again to bother you but just thought it is worth a try as you were so helpul and knowledgeable last time with the Cruickshanks, Yours  Jenny Gellatly. 

Morning Elwyn, I was just thinking to help you I will give you more specific years of birth of the Lisgar McElwaine children .Their years of birth  will be sl vague as are taken from  both of the Lisgar Census'.

Richard McElwaine B 1853, (teacher at Lisball N.S.)  married Jane McDowell in 1892  (from Co Roscommon although on the Census it says she is from Co Longford) ,

Richard and Jane had 4 girls and 2 boys. May,  Ella, Eva ,John Robert ,Thomas William, and Charlotte. May was B 1894 in Lisball (she is with the Lisgar family on both Census') According to our precious 1888 Cruikshank letter this family had just moved to Lisball. 

Robert  B 1857 bachelor (G.P. Baileborough),Thomas B 1859  bachelor (surgeon Devonport Eng ) Patrick B 1864 (surgeon London and Essex)  married 1898 Charlotte from Lisburn Co Antrim,(Not sure if they married in  Co Antrim or England. They had one child Margaret Jane B in Lisburn - Census info ) 

William B 1867 bachelor, farmer ,John B 1868 bachelor Farmer .and lastly after six sons their only daughter Eliza B 1874. She was 34 and single in 1901 ,and with her single brothers. The 1911 Census, not with the  family ? deceased ? married. 

Just thought it may help you to localise if any birth /marriage certificates may exsist. Many thanks again Elwyn Jenny Gellatly. 

Jenny,

Marriage for Mary McElwaine to Frederick Hall in 1916:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1916/09786/5552479.pdf

Annie Evelyn McElwaine was a witness.

Thomas married Agnes Pratt in 1939:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1939/08864/5205462.pdf

Richard McElwaine died in 1925.

Martha Ellen (Ella) McElwaine married John Notley in 1916 and died in Aughrim, Co. Roscommon in 1933

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1916/09786/5552479.pdf

Death gives her name as Margaret Ellen

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1933/04864/4314569.pdf

Note that Charlotte was the informant for the 1933 death and was still single then.

There is a tree on Ancestry (Telford family) owner Dorothy Cheetham which has a  photo of the grave. Ella’s husband died 3 days after she did. Grave is in St Ann’s churchyard, Annaduff, Co. Leitrim.

Birth of Margaret Jane McElwaine in Lisburn in 1900. Mother’s maiden name was Charlotte Young. Couple married Hendon, Middlesex Jan – Mar 1898 Volume 3a, page 193.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01989/1765669.pdf

According to the House & Youngs tree on Ancestyr (owner fizzymum), Patrick died 6.10.1916 in Cheshire, England. No information on what became of Charlotte or their daughter.

Patrick left a will.  The UK wills index gives his address as 25 Grove Rd, Wallasey (which is a suburb of Liverpool). Probate was granted in London to Charlotte McElwaine widow. Effects £4281 12s 9d. You can order a copy of that will on the wills site and they’ll e-mail it to you: https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=Durr&SurnameGrants=Durr&YearOfDeath=1918&YearOfDeathGrants=1918&IsGrantSearch=True&IsCalendarSearch=False#wills

I had a look for the Eliza who is 37 in the 1901 census but cannot be found after that. I can’t see a marriage or death for her in Ireland, nor does she appear to be on any on-line tree.

Hello Elwyn, once again you have excelled yourself finding those various McElwaine Certificate. Thank you so  very much. 

I believe the most I could hope for is that Elizabeth was a sibling of Lisgar John McElwaine. I have been given the name of e Percy McElwaine in Ontario who is a son of Thomas, grandson of teacher Richard, I am going to write to him asking about Lisgar John's siblings ??  His aunt would be Eliza and he should know if she married. The fact the 3 doctror's family is mentioned in the Cruikshank letters still makes me feel there may have been a relationship with Elizabeth (nee McElwaine) 

I have been trying to see if there is any way I can  find  from what area  of Scotland  the Cruikshanks/ McElwaines came from. I have been listening to a talk today and the Scottish historian has given a few tips . He said if the 'land owner'  over your family's townland /Barony  can be found  it may be possible to trace back to what part of Scotland he (the 'land owner') came and therefore from where he locally chose his 24  plantars for plantation  to Ireland. According to the Griffiths Valuation, the Barony that the Cruikshanks were in was 'Clonkee' Parish of Baileborough. , The owner of the land was 'Sir John Young'

He said English/Scottish Barons were appointed by the King (James 1st Eng and 6th Scotland) and they  then had to divide their baronies into  approx 3000 acres lots managed by 'sub undertakers' . On teach of  those 3000 acres about 50 "sub undertakers'  were appointed  to manage smaller land divisions. These 'sub undertakers'  had to 'plant' /find 24 able males including 10 families per 1000 acreas. 

He said thorough surveys were done and written up on these Baronys  in 1611, 1613, 1618-1619, and 1622 where the occupants of  each of these 'sub baronies' were listed .Whether they were cottagers,labourers tenant land owners, etc. I think he said they were on line ??  He said Cavan would have been 'planted' in about 1610-1640. I guess there is no survey of early Cavan ?? A needle in a haystack stuff I think !! He said surnames and given names usually came down the line !! 

I guess that search would quickly come to a dead end. So once again, I say thanks Elwyn for all your wonderful help, Jenny Gellatly. 

Jenny,

Bailieborough and the surrounding area is in the barony of Clankee.  According to “The Scottish Migration to Ulster in the Reign of James I” by M Perceval-Maxwell (page 97) that area of Cavan was awarded to Esme Stewart (Lord Aubigny). He was the Chief Undertaker.  However there is a footnote to say he “..resided at court almost all the time, (so) to list a Scottish location is slightly misleading. Furthermore the influence of this family was just as strong in Dumbartonshire as Stirlingshire.” So his family had links with Dunbartonshire and Stirlingshire. But Perceval-Maxwell isn’t convinced that his tenants necessarily came from there. 

Another a snag that I see is that there were no Cruikshanks in Cavan in the Muster Rolls of 1630. That suggests that they didn't arrive in Ireland as part of the Plantation (or if they did they didn’t settle immediately in Cavan). So whilst the general advice in your Scottish historian’s lecture about the Undertakers bringing tenants from their Scottish and English estates with them is widely acknowledged to be correct, in this case I am not convinced your Cruickshanks arrived in that way.  I mentioned previously that many Scots arrived later as a result of famine in Scotland in the 1690s. And others arrived throughout that century for other reasons. If they weren’t in Clankee in 1630 they weren’t part of the Plantation which I would date to 1610 -1625. So they came later and could have come from anywhere in Scotland.

I had a look at the 1841 Scottish census (on Scotlandspeople). There were 2711 people named Cruickshank (and variants).  You can go through searching by county but broadly they were found nearly everywhere. I realise that doesn't help you at all.

Your family were Presbyterian. Not all Scots were Presbyterian and not many Scots from the far north or islands settled in Ireland. Most Presbyterian settlers in Ireland came from an area in Scotland somewhere below a line drawn between Oban and Inverness and just above the border with England (Few Borderers were Presbyterian. Indeed most had no religion at all). That’s still a huge chunk of Scotland but you can probably exclude the Northern Highlands and the Islands, plus the Borders.

Perhaps they came from Forfar/Agnus where the name Gellatly was quite common?

Hello Again Elwyn. Once again your knowledge , diligence and research skills just amaze me. But once again we come to dead ends to get back any further into the story!! I have been working on a Cruikshank relative who emigrated in U.S.A. His name is William Henry Cruikshank who went to  Plainville Ontario. His wife is Abigail Young -also Irish.They married in Ireland about 1842 and emigrated in 1843

It states in a  New York State  newspaper article (Watertown Daily) that William Henry Cruikshank's son John, a lawyer (murdered by a client) was a cousin of Hugh Cruikshank.(he emigrated from Lisball Cruikshanks to U.S) Hugh was a son of John and Elizabeth Cruikshank. So William  Cruikshank (from Ireland) would be a brother of  Lisball John Cruikshank. William was born about 1813 in Cavan Ireland .He died in Ontarion Dec 1896. I believe it is a strong possability that he was John Cruikshank's  brother. 

At one stage I had worked out William's  father was James Alexander Cruikshanks  born in Scotland who was married to Martha Thompson (born in Ireland) .His  Christian names certainly would fit with our family also !! . 

Hugh made three or four return trips to Ireland and SCOTLAND to visit friends and relatives - stated in the newspaper. Made me think the Scottish relatives are not as far back as the 'Plantationa'  etc. 

There are two other  U.S. connections to Hugh Cruikshank, which I still have to find a bit more about.

1. He leaves money to two children of Dr William Cruikshank, 

2 There is a highly respected teacher Dr James Cruikshank again ' a relative of Hugh Cruikshank' in a newspaper article.James was born in U.S. I have not found who his father was yet.

Hugh was a very respected and wealthy land owner in Carthage, N.Y State. with connections to the Watertown Daily Newspaper.

Again, with limited  Irish records available  these times their names will probably not 'exsist'  Was worth mentioning to you just in case. Thanks again for all Elwyn, your help has been so very much appreciated ,Jenny 

Jenny,

The general pattern for most Scottish migrants to Ireland was that they arrived in the 1600s. By the 1700s and 1800s they were leaving again. So I would expect your Cruikshanks to have arrived in the 1600s. If they were in touch with relatives in Scotland in the 1800s, my guess is those would be people who had moved back to Scotland in the 1800s. I could be wrong. The family might have arrived in Ireland in the early 1800s but it would have been quite unusual if they did. Lack of spare land, high rents, inability to buy your freehold, poor crop prices, intermittent famines, religious difficulties (for those who weren’t Church of Ireland), restrictions on markets for linen and woolen products, combined with a population explosion were all driving people out of the country in the 1800s. It would be unusual for someone to move to Ireland then.

Plus in Scotland and England the industrial revolution created hundreds of thousands of new jobs attracting people there. (The industrial revolution largely passed Ireland by).

Because most farms were too small to subdivide, most farmers left the farm to the eldest son. The other sons had to fend for themselves. With no work locally they often left Ireland.  In your case many seem to have been well motivated, well educated and successful. So there were several who emigrated and several who became teachers and doctors. With a Presbyterian background it would be quite possible that some headed off for Scotland too. And being well educated and literate they could have kept in regular touch with their family in Ireland or North America more than the average emigrant did.       

I am happy enough to search Scottish records if you can give me an idea of who to look for and perhaps where they lived.

As far as finding any record of William henry b c 1813 who died in Ontario. If he was Presbyterian and baptised in Bailieborough around 1813, there are no records to search. (They start in the 1860s). A small portion of the 1821 census of Cavan has survived but unfortunately it does not cover Bailieborough.

Once again Elwyn I am blown away with your knowledge and helpful explanations of patterns of emigration.That would be an explanation as to why Hugh Cruikshank mentions (in the newspaper) visiting  Scotland and his relatives .I have looked into the naming patterns of the Irish and the Cruikshank family once again they don't stick to the rules !! 

That is a very generous offer to look into Scottish records. re the Cruikshanks The information we have from there is very very scant. It is said they came from Aberdeen, that is all we know. That I guess would be referring to the Cruikshank surname (not McElwaine) !! How scant is that ??  Impossible task I would say Elwyn. The 'Battle of the Boyne 1695' is mentioned in a scrappy note !!! Means nothing re their date of emigration again. 

I was thinking if you have closer access to Scottish history than I do I may be really cheeky and ask you to please look into my Gellatly family !!

Robert Gellatly was born on 12 June 1827 in Blairgowrie Perth. Not sure of his siblings or parents. I think father is James and wife Margaret Whyte.Robert  married in Balabrook Kirchmichael on June 28 1858. His wife was Ann McPherson b in Laggan in the Scottish Highlands on 31 Jan 1837. Her parents were John McPherson and wife Mary nee McIntyre. Robert and Ann had a son Richard Penketh who died in Scotland in 1859. In 1860 they and their son James McPherson Gellatly, emigrated to Austrlia .They subsequently had three more sons here , all sucessful farmers. 

I would be interested to know a little more about Robert's parents grandparents siblings etc. 

I have been in touch with an historian at the tiny town of Laggan and have found out about Ann's family. I am not sure of any of her sibling's  dates of birth .She was one of six - 5 girls , Janet, Christina, Isabella, Sarah Justine, and 1 boy Duncan Gordon McPherson.The reason I know more about her family is that they ALL emigrated to Australia except her sister Sarah Justine McPherson who died of T.B.at  about 40 in 1885 and is buried with her parents in Laggan. 

Sarah's widower Alex MacLean (builder from Dundee I believe) and his three children Thomas, Mary Ann and John (all born in Dundee I believe) also emigrated to Oz. We actually live in the house which is named 'DUNDEE' which John built for his father and single siblings in 1910 here in Melbourne. It has never been sold in 110 years !! 

If you are able to  find correct dates /years of birth of the McPherson siblings  that would be very helpful. Their 'age' differs on all their documents here - marriage death certs etc. !!  I am not sure of their order of birth. 

Janet McPherson married Charles John Campbell in 1848 in Scotland Inverness .I take it that she may have been the eldest. They had three chidren John, Donald and Isabella in Inverness Scotland 

Christina McPherson I believe had two illegitimate children ,James (McPherson) HARRIS !! B Sept 1857 and Jessie Jane McPherson B 1871 .Not sure about the fathers of either. Apparently one was also a McPherson !! And know nothing about a 'Harris' name or connection. He called himself Harris as do his descendants here. She emigrated with her children and brother in law Alex MacLean  and his three children, in 1887.

Another inexplainable happening which you may be able to explain.. I have the passenger list of the 'Hohenzollern' and they embarked at Antwerp Brussels !! Seems odd when they were from Scotland !! 

I think that is enough gossip to keep you busy Elwyn. Any help you may be able to offer me would be MOST appreciated.

So you can see there is a LOT of Scottish blood flowing through  this family's veins !! 

I hope I haven't frightened you. The most difficult, I believe as we know will be any Cruikshank background  in Aberdeen you can find.  Tentatively yours, !! Jenny G 

Jenny,

The Scotlandspeople site has a baptism for Robert Dick Gellatly in Blairgowrie on 24.6.1827. Parents James Gellatly & Margaret Whyte. Likely siblings: Alexander Dick Gellatly bapt 10.3.1822; Elisabeth Gellatly bapt 8.2.1824 & Euphemia Dick Gellatly bapt 11.4.1830.

Likely parents marriage: James Gellatly to Margaret White 24.6.1821 Rattray parish, Perthshire.

I had a good look for the family in the 1841 census for all of Perthshire but cannot find them. In 1851 Alexander Gellatly is in Blairgowrie  aged 26, wife Catherine also 26, and son Robert 2.

I can see the death of Catherine Gellatly nee McIntosh in 1856 aged 38. I can’t see the couples marriage. Or a death for son Robert. He presumably died between 1851 and 1855 when statutory death registration started.

1861 census has Alexander 33 and Alexander 10 in Blairgowrie.

1871 census has Alex 42 and Alexander 19 in Blairgowrie.

1881 had Alexander 51, Alexander 29 & Alexander 2 in Blairgowrie.

Death of Alexander Gellatly aged 53 in Blairgowrie in 1882.

1891 had Alexander 37 and Alexander 12 in Blairgowrie.

James Gellatly is in New Rattray in the 1851 census aged 54, with wife Margaret44, daughters Marjory 10 & Catherine 5.

James Gellatly is living in New Rattray in the 1861 census. Aged 62, wife Margaret 49, daughters Elizabeth 26 and Catherine 13 plus Margaret’s widowed mother Elizabeth Whyte aged 85.

There’s a possible death for James Gellatly in 1863 in New Rattray aged 67. Mother’s maiden name Anderson. I don’t see a death for Margaret. Elizabeth Whyte looks to have died in New Rattray 1861 aged 86. Mother’s maiden name Reid.

You can view the baptisms, marriages, deaths and census records on Scotlandspeople. They cost about £1.60 each to view. You can print off copies etc.

http://scotlandspeople.gov.uk

If searching you will find that the spelling of Gellatly varies tremendously. Try searching with Gel and Gal or Gol plus the “names that begin with” option. That throws up the most entries.

There are a number of trees on Ancestry with this family.  Several give James place of birth as Alyth, Perthshire and his parents Thomas Gellatly (1769 – 1848) and Susan Anderson (no dates). There’s mention of more children to James & Margaret including Thomas 1835 – 1916, John 1841 – 1916 and Marjorie 1840 – 21.4.1916 died Scone, Perth. (Marjorie & Margaret can be interchangeable names). Some of the information may need checking. For example, the JL Matheson tree has James Gellatly as an inn-keeper in Forgandenny in 1851 whereas he’s a ploughman in most others, and appears to have been in Rattray in 1851. Suspect the Forgandenny census is a different James. However if you message the tree owners you can find out what other information they have.

Scotlandspeople does have a baptism for James Gellatly in Alyth on 17.7.1791 to Thomas Gellatly and Susan Anderson. Also John on 31.1.1790; Janet 14.7.1793. Marriage of Thomas Gellatly & Susan Anderson in Alyth 14.4.1789.

Bear in mind that the dates pre 1.1.1855 are usually baptism dates rather than dates of birth, so could easily be 6 months after the child was born. Some parish registers show dates of birth as well (which you would get by paying to view the image) but some didn’t record it. Likewise pre 1855, the marriage date is one of the dates on which the banns were read, not the actual date of the marriage (which often isn’t recorded). Scottish custom then was not to marry in church. You usually married at the Manse (the Minister's hosue) or the bride's parent’s home or sometimes in a hotel.

I can confirm Ann McPherson was baptised in Laggan, Inverness-shire, on 31.1.1837. Siblings Duncan 16.8.1830 and again on 1.9.1830; Annie 31.1.1837; Isabella 25.11.1826; Sarah 16.9.1838,; Christian 23.8.1830 & Janet 5.5.1821. Can’t see the parents marriage.

I don’t see the marriage for Janet McPherson & Charles Campbell. (As with Ireland not all the early parish records have survived).

There’s a Jessie McPherson birth registered in Laggan in 1871, and a James McPherson in 1857. If you pay to view those 2, you will see if a father is named. With a married mother, there’s a presumption of legitimacy and she is able to name her husband as father without his being there. With an illegitimate child the father’s name will only appear if he was present at the registration and confirmed he was the father. If no father is named look for a middle name. It was common practice to put the father’s surname down as a middle name. Not always of course.

Regarding sailing from Antwerp rather than England, that wasn’t uncommon.  I assume the tickets were priced competitively and it was worth going to Antwerp to join the vessel. It’s not a long crossing. Dover to Antwerp was probably 3 hours.  Usually it’s the other way round. Liverpool acted as a sort of clearing house for migrants from all over Europe and so hundreds of thousands of people from Poland and Germany etc had to go there to join their ships. (Likewise Ireland. There were only a small number of sailings from Ireland, especially to Australia, and Irish migrants had to go to England to leave. For Australia it was sometimes Tilbury or Plymouth.) There was quite a bit of competition for the traffic and ships agent's often threw in the cost of a Belfast - Liverpool crossing free. That may have been the case for your family too, travelling to Antwerp. But crossing the English Channel or Irish Sea was common for many migrants in their journey to North America, Australia or elsewhere.

Good Morning Elwyn, you blew me away with all the Scottish information you sent me last time. Once again thank you so much.I was interested to hear your explanation of their Antwerp departure.I am thinking perhaps they crossed the English channel from Dundee or Perth to Antwerp. Also was interested in your knowledge re the usual place of marriage in the early to mid 1800's - the manse, home, or a hotel. I only wish I had a bit more knowledge of how life was then. 

Thanks too for the Gellatly dates. I found Robert Gellatly (who came to Australia and ran an Hotel for 9 years (like his grandfatherin Alyth) on the Gold Escort Route here in Victoria before becoming a sucessful dry land farmer, was one of 9 children born to James and Margaret (Whyte) Gellatly. 

I found too that James' father was Thomas Gellatly 'Innkeeper' and ;brewer' in another place, was married to Susan nee Anderson. I see on checking that there was a 'brewery' in Alyth for some time.I wonder if I wrote to the Hist Soc of Alyth if they would have any more evidence of Thomas and which Inn he kept !! Perhaps worth a try !!  

Yes  thanks Elwyn I have been on 'Scotland's People' and got as many  B.D.M. entries that I could thanks Elwyn.  I think I have found the parents of Thomas Gellaltly in 'Scotlands People' I have found a baptism of a Thomas Gellatly that may have been him. His father was John Gellatly a 'shoemaker' in Edinburgh Greyfriars parish and his mother Mary Rainny (Rainnie in another place) Thomas  was born  on 27 July 1769. Bapt Newfriars Parish Edinburgh. 3 Aug 1769 ??

I have a marriage date for John Gellatly and Mary Rannie, June 1754 at St Cuthberts Edinburgh. I am not anyway sure of this last Gellatly  information.I cannot find a death for either John or Mary Rannie (pehaps they are still alive !!!!) Or any other children they may have had, except for a Robert Gellatly B 3 Aug 1863  Edinburgh (who had a daughter named Maria in 1801) I cannor find his wife. The name 'Robert ' has come down through the generations.

Thomas was in Alyth when he married Susan Anderson  in 1789 !! Alyth had a flax mill built in 1790 and families were moving in to follow the new 'mechanised' textile industry.

I guess we have come to the end of getting any information about any of the earlier Gellalty's Elwyn. 

Once again thank you so much for your help. From so far away, it is difficult to get into my head how it was at that time.

We have been in Lockdown here in Melbourne for over 2 months. Children have had to be home schooled for 10 weeks. We are allowed out 1 hour a day to exercise. Curfew 8pm -5am. We can only leave the house for 4 reasosn and fined $1600 if none of the 4 reasosns or outside after curfew. We cannot go futher than 5 kms from home. Only stores of convenience open- service stations,supermarkets,chemists, Butchers, fresh food markets. We have had very limited movement retrictions since March If I chose to go outside the 'ring of steel' around Melbourne to rural Victoria I would be fined $5000. Fined $200 if not wearing a mask out of my home boundary. 

These restrictions are wonderful for family historians as there is always our hobby to pursue 'inside' !!  

Jenny Gellaltly 

Jenny,

My feeling is that if Thomas Gellatly married in Alyth, he probably came from that area too. The couple in distant Edinburgh are probably a different family. You are probably up against the same problem you face with your Irish research in that the Alyth parish records don’t go back any further than the 1790s. However some Edinburgh ones do, so a search on Scotlandspeople may throw up folk with the right names but I think it’s the wrong place. As you say you are unlikely to get back much further. (My own family are from Brechin which is not far from Alyth and I face exactly the same problem there. The records fizzle out in the 1700s).

I searched the British Newspapers Archive for mentions of Alyth, Inns and Gellatly. I didn’t find any references. There is a mention of an inn for sale in Alyth on 10th October 1843 in the snappily named “Northern Warder and General Advertiser for the Counties of Fife, Perth & Forfar” which offers: “That large and well frequented Inn at the foot of Tutie St, presently occupied by Mr P. Ewart. Included in the deal were a brew house, malt barn, Kiln, stables etc etc. Present occupant is withdrawing from the business. It was well known and the principal Inn and brew seat in Alyth, in the centre of town and altogether completely adapted to the purposes of brewing, malting etc.”

I see another Inn in Alyth for sale in the Dundee Warden 26.10.1841 being the property of the late John Wilkie of Alyth.

You could certainly try the local historical society to see what they have. If there are any early street directories for Perthshire, you might find the Gellatly Inn listed in those.

Regarding how the family got to Antwerp, they might have got a sailing from Dundee but I wonder if there would have been a regular service. They probably didn't go south by train for the whole journey. The railway didn’t cross the Tay till 1878 and the Forth till 1890. They probably got a ferry down from Dundee to Edinburgh anyway. There were 3 sailings a week from Dundee to Granton (Edinburgh’s docks) in the 1840s, according to an advert in the 1841 Warden.

The Abertay Historical Society has produced a lengthy article on shipping from Dundee up to 1850. You might find clues there. (It’s quite long and I haven’t read it).

http://www.fdca.org.uk/pdf%20files/TradeShippingDundee.pdf

That society might also have information on inns in Alyth.

Your Covid difficulties in Melbourse have been widely reported here in Ireland and we have been following it. It must be very difficult if you live in a city. You have our sympathies. It’s not quite so bad in Ireland but there are concerns that younger people are disregarding the social distancing rules and that it will spike up again here too. We live in difficult times.

Here I am again Elwyn, thanks again for your expertise support and interest in the 'scots' !!I have written to both the Alyth and Blairgowrie/Rattray Historical Soc so fingers crossed if I hear back. 

Yes sadly I agree with you ther Edinburgh Gellatly was pie in the sky stuff with no proof so they have been deleted.!! 

I have scanned the Scotland's people and found a John Gellety in Alyth who had a son Thomas on 31 May 1761. I was thinking this could well fit as Thomas went on to name his own first son John too. 

I cannot find deaths for any of them except Susan Anderson's death  in 1815 in Alyth. No death for Thomas. 

I was wondering about James' siblings; John and Janet  Gellatly,  Any sign of their  marriages or death?  .I have a marriage of Janet to a David Gellatly on Christmas Eve 1820 in Alyth ??? They had a child  Grace Rattray  Gellatly in Alyth 1821. 

Any sign of children to Janet or John ? 

I can see a marriage Alyth of John Gellatly to  a Jean Gibb 1817 (aged 26) about the right year, and they had children George 1818, Eliz 1820 , Peter 1822, Helen 1825 (no James yet) I haven't looked at their marriage entry on Scotland's People yet Elwyn. I will wait for your view as to whether or not that marriage is a posability  or he did he marry  someone else ?? !! 

I think Jean's father may have been David GIBB and her mother Jean ?? Jean died 1850 Alyth .There are quite a few Gibbs in Alyth too. I cannot see her birth there. 

1841 Census John Gellatly  50, living in David St. Alyth George and Peter not with their father John 

1851 Census John Gellatly 62 Daughter Helen 25, and Son James 18, both 'hand loom weavers' and grandson Peter 4

1861 Census John is 72 and a patient at Dundee Infirmary ? 

Thank you so much for looking upo the Alyth Inns. Fingers crosse the Hist Soc may have a record of where he was and even a drawing/ Picture of it !! 

I think I will have bewildered you enough with all of these questions Elwyn. 

I have some lovely unamed photos here, taken in Blairgowrie. Frustratingly we will never know who they are. Until next time, thaaaanks so much for all, Jenny 

Jenny,

Death registration didn’t start in Scotland till 1855. Prior to that some parishes kept burial records (mostly for financial reasons ie to help compile the parish accounts) and some didn’t. They are very patchy. So for family who died before 1855 it’s quite possible there’s no record.  It’s tempting to go for someone in another part of Scotland where they did keep records but unless you have corroborating information putting them there eg from a census, it may not be the right family.

You ask about children for John & Janet. The Gellatly family tree (owner Anne Gellatly) has John Gellatly marrying Jean Gibb in Alyth 14.12.1817 and also in Blairgowrie on 19.11.1826. Children George Cramond Gellatly b Alyth 10.10.1818 -1859, Helen Gellatly b 23.9.1825 Alyth (no year of death), Jean Gellatly b c 1831 Rattray (no year of death), James Gellatly b 23.4.1832 Alyth (no year of death), family appear in the 1841 & 1851 censuses of Alyth. Father Thomas is recorded as dying in Edinburgh 14.5.1848. (That feels to me like another internet guess). George Cramond Gellatly is recorded as dying in Alyth 15.11.1849. James Rattray is recorded there as dying 12.1.1863 in New Rattray, Aberdeenshire. John is shown as being in the 1861 & 1871 censuses for Rattray.

No information for Janet Gellatly on that tree.

The above marriage ties in with the one you found. I’d assume the 1826 marriage in Blairgowrie is not the same couple, if they were having children in Alyth 1818 onwards. Or it might possibly be an error as I cannot find such a marriage on Scotlandspeople. However there is one on that same date in Blairgowrie between John Gellatly and Elisabeth McIntyre.

Another Gellatly family tree (owner craigmcleish1) has Janet Gellatly marrying Donald Stewart (no date of marriage). It mentions a sister Maria b 1801, and children Adam Stewart b 1814 Liff, Forfarshire, Robert 1819 Liff, Isabella b 1824 Lochee, Angus died 28.12.1888 Prahan Victoria, Australia, John 1833 Liff died 1904 Melbourne, Australia and death of father in Edinburgh 14.5.1848. It has Susan Anderson dying in Dundee in 1809.

Forfarshire and Angus are the same county. The name changed over the years. I forget why.

I looked for a baptism for Jean Gibb around Alyth but could not find one either. There was one in Meigle which is not too far from Alyth on 2.5.1790 to John Gib. No mother’s name given.

Hello Elwyn, I have had a great day. Janet married David Gellatly. 1&20 Alyth . She was the 'daughter of Thomas Alyth , Innkeeper'  so no disputing that!! 
Must have been a distant relative. They had Susan 1826 David 1829 and Jane 1838
.I have then been able to follow their son David and his family until  his death in London - after the 1901 Census when  he was 71 and living with his daughter Jessie  in Limehouse London . An exciting day. I will get back to you tomorrow when I check out your findings.re  James' brother John Gellatly.  Thanks so much again.

Ann Gellatly is part of our family here and I think she has piggybacked on some of my findings dates and mistakes!! 
Was so exciting to confirm Janet's marriage today. 
I thought it interesting that even in 1821 when daughter Janet married they still referred to her father  as 'the Alyth Innkeeper' . He must have been in that job for quite some time . I have him there in 1790's but 1812 is a lot later!! Fingers crossed we hear info re this tenure from Alyth Hist Soc 
Thanks again Elwyn for all your work,  will look at it tomorrow. Very exciting day today I confirm that wedding.  Jenny 

Hello Elwyn, I have had a great day. Janet married David Gellatly. 1&20 Alyth . She was the 'daughter of Thomas Alyth , Innkeeper'  so no disputing that!! 
Must have been a distant relative. They had Susan 1826 David 1829 and Jane 1838
.I have then been able to follow their son David and his family until  his death in London - after the 1901 Census when  he was 71 and living with his daughter Jessie  in Limehouse London . An exciting day. I will get back to you tomorrow when I check out your findings.re  James' brother John Gellatly.  Thanks so much again.

Ann Gellatly is part of our family here and I think she has piggybacked on some of my findings dates and mistakes!! 
Was so exciting to confirm Janet's marriage today. 
I thought it interesting that even in 1821 when daughter Janet married they still referred to her father  as 'the Alyth Innkeeper' . He must have been in that job for quite some time . I have him there in 1790's but 1812 is a lot later!! Fingers crossed we hear info re this tenure from Alyth Hist Soc 
Thanks again Elwyn for all your work,  will look at it tomorrow. Very exciting day today I confirm that wedding.  Jenny 

Hello  Elwyn again. Thanks again for all your interesting snippets of history !
Cruikshank 
I have been chasing American Cruikshanks again in the hope I can tie up Hugh Cruikshank (John's  son Lisball) with them . 
Unmarried Hugh ,son of John and Elizabeth (McElwaine) emigrated to the states 1857 when he was 19. (B 1838) 
I am sure he is tied up with Hugh and Jane (née Thistle) Cruikshank. They married in Bailieborough in Jan 1867. They had 5 children in Ireland and 3 more in Ontario Canada. Names of their children are similar to John and Eliz Cruikshank's chn  Robert William, James,John, Hugh.Annie  Their first child Mary Ann was born in 1869 .Their year of emigration was 1880 . Other Chn  B in Ireland were Robert, 1871, Margaret, 1873, John  H 1876, Annie 1878 
I am hoping their 1867 Bailieborough marriage certificate may give Hugh's  parent's names but I think you said they have little information on them. 

.Where they settled in Ontario -at  Peterborough  - this area had a nearby district of Bailieboro !!! According to the Census there were Many many other Irish settlers in that area too. 
I think somewhere I saw Hugh's father may have been Robert Cruikshank. 
Hugh was born in 1847 and wife Jane in 1845.
OUR Hugh successfully settled and farmed near the northern NY state border with Ontario at Carthage,  very near to Peterborough 

I just thought /was hoping there may be more Irish facts about Hugh and Jane before they left,  to give us a lead on  a connection to  Lisball John and Elizabeth Cruikshank. 
Gellatly 
I have searched all the siblings of James Gellatly (our line) at Blairgowrie. I cannot find marriages or deaths of  his siblings Euphemia Gellatly B 1830, James B 1832 ,Thomas B 1835,Janet Dick b 1838 , Think their possible marriage and deaths may be before records were kept!! 

I guess I just wonder Elwyn if you would be able to find if the Bailieborough marriage entry  of Hugh and Jane Thistle  exists!! Fingers crossed . At best the two Hughs  may be cousins I guess. 
I think I am coming to the end of possibilities Elwyn. 
Once again thanks for your guidance and skills Elwyn you have been amazing. 
Jenny Gellatly. 

Jenny,

Here’s  the 1867 marriage for Hugh Cruikshank and Jane Thistle. Irish civil marriage certificates only contain the couples fathers’ names. No mothers.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11485/8221738.pdf

They married at 2nd Bailieborough Presbyterian (tradition was to marry in the bride’s church). Hugh’s townland was Lisanalsk. (His father Robert is listed farming there in Griffiths in 1856). Both gave their ages as 20, so both born c 1847.

No Cruikshanks living in Lisanalsk by 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Bailieboro/Lisanalsk/

There’s a Robert Crookshanks death registered in Bailieborough in 1873 aged 76. That might be the father. That certificate is not viewable on-line free yet. If you want to see it you need to order a pdf copy from GRO Roscommon for €4 (euros).

I did a search on the British newspapers site for Cruikshanks of Lisanalsk but did not find any mentions.

Once again, many thanks Elwyn I have been trying to get an uncertified certificate of Robert Cruickshanks death but not having much sucess.

It sends me to the 'certificates' for 20 euros, and secondly it will not accept by 1873 death date!  It says it goes from 1 Jan 1878 to today's date. Of course I am wanting to put in 1873.

I would appreciate  your advice and help  to get to where I want to at the G.R.O. Roscommon.for just an uncertified copy. 

Robert's age makes him about the same age as my John Cruickshank , so thought it worth a try to follow up with an uncertified copy of his death details !! 

Thomas Cruickshank. 

Something I have see in the Baileborough court record books 1871-1874  Elwyn are cases of 'defendant' Thomas Cruikshank of Lisball re road maintanance .There is no indication of  his age there of course, but thought the fact he was a Lisball Cruickshank may mean something !! 

I think at some stage he was linked to Susan Cruikshank  'single' and ' farmer' on both  Lisball 1901 and 1911 Census' 

She died unmarried and an aunt of Thomas aged 86 in 1925 and her nephew Thomas Cruikshank was present at her death and the informant. I wonder if we have  could have any leads  back from this scant information. 

So close but so far still Elwyn !!

I look forward to getting the steps /suggestion to procure an uncertified death certificate of Robert Cruickshank from the G.R.O. Roscommon. Please tell me when you do not want to help anymore - you must be sick of me-  I am still locked up except for 2 hours per day !! Jenny  

Jenny,

E-mail GRO on the link below, specifying that you want a research copy of the certificate. They will normally e-mail it to you. Cost should be €4.

https://www.gov.ie/en/organisation-information/55ccbe-general-register-office-gro-research-facility/

You are looking for the death of Robert Crookshanks died 1873 aged 76. Bailieborough 1873 Quarter 3, Volume 12 , page 241. (Put that in your e-mail).

You’ll need to give them your credit card details (or if you have €5 note you can post your order & payment to them by old fashioned letter).

Regarding Thomas Cruikshank, I looked at the death for Susan in 1925 in Termon. I happened to notice that the death immediately prior to hers was for Thomas Harrison Cruikshank, aged 8 months, Informant was father Thomas of Termon.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1926/05000/4364830.pdf

A birht certificate for 1925 is not on-line yet (100 year cut off) so you would need to order it from GRO to find out who the mother was.

That in turn took me to the 1911 census (the wife's too old to have a child in 1925 so must be a different couple):

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Termon/Termon/317137/

and 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Termon/Termon/1056630/

That in turn took me to their marriage in 1895, which shows his father was James Crookshanks, blacksmith & farmer:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1895/10517/5831089.pdf.

Thomas who married Lizzie McKibbin couldn’t really be the same Thomas of Lisball who was in the court reports in the 1870s as he’d only have been a child then.

I’d speculate from her and the location that Susan’s brother James was this one in Lisball:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Bailieboro/Lisball/1053421/

Griffiths Valuation of 1856 has 2 Cruikshank properties in Lisball. One occupied by Thomas (plot 3 a 13 acre farm) and the other by John (plot 28 a forge and 14 acres, so evidence of blacksmith skills again). Presumably the Thomas is the one in the court reports. Either he or John are presumably the father of the assorted unmarried Cruikshanks in Lisball in 1901.

Irishgenealogy has a death of Thomas Cruickshanks regd Bailieborough in 1882 aged 76.  Unfortunately when you try to view the certificate it takes you to a page of deaths in Co. Sligo. (This is not an uncommon problem with that site. So it has been loaded wrong.  I have reported it. You would need order a copy of the correct document from GRO). (Jan – Mar 1882 Vol 2 page 287).

I looked for a death for John Cruickshanks. There’s a John Cruickshank death in 1877 aged 73. That’s not on-line so you would need to order it from GRO. Quarter 2, Vol 7, page 311.

Happy to carry on answering questions if I know the answers.

Jenny,

I have been reading a new book on researching Presbyterians in Ireland (by William Roulston). I came across some information about Presbyterian churches in Bailieborough that might interest you.  They might mention your family. According to pages 125/6:

“Leslie McKeague has written two detailed books on congregations past & present in east Co Cavan: Trinity Presbyterian Church Bailieborough: the First 125 years 1887-2012 (incorporates the churches of 2nd Bailieborough and Seafin) (2013); and First Bailieborough Presbyterian church (Corglass): 300 years of worship 1714 – 2014 (Incorporates Glasleck Presbyterian church, Shercock (2014). 

The Trinity Presbyterian church volume includes the inscriptions from Urcher Old graveyard (the location of 2ndBailieborough, the forerunner of Trinity) and Urcher New graveyard, as well as maps of both burial grounds showing the locations of the memorials; this volume also includes a list of the inscriptions in the graveyard of the former congregation of Seafin and a map of the burial ground.  Likewise his book on 1st Bailieborough includes inscriptions from and a map of the burial ground adjoining that place of worship and same for the graveyard at the now closed Glasleck Presbyterian church (in this case the map of the graveyard dates from 1941, with additional information added concerning monuments added since then).”

This post also mentions Cruikshank from Bailieborough. 

https://irelandxo.com/ireland/cavan/bailieborough-cavan/message-board/d…

Good morning Elwyn, I am trying to connect up  a few  Cruikshank family members who emigrated to America (N.Y.State) and Canada before I get back to you with their names and a bit of info about them.I am in the process of getting the death certs of Robert and Thomas from GRO .Lisball Thomas' year of birth would certainly fit in as a sibling of  John and Alexander 'Alic' .Can yoyu see on the Griffith valuation who may have overtaken Lisball Thomas' Lot 3 - a 13 acre farm. after him? 

The John Cruikshank you mention on Lot 28 in Lisball is married to Elizabeth McElwaine my oldest relative .They have all the unmarried children. Jane who came to Australia made up for them after her illegitimate child  Anne-Jane she left there..I have John's death cert, it only states his son James (bachelor) was with him at death- no other relatives mentioned. 

I was wondering if Susan Cruikshank may have been  a daughter of Lisball Thomas, -? a niece of  my John and Alex ? 

Would the family have used much Gaelic in the mid 1800's? 

Cruikshank 1888 letter refers to 'Uncle John ' and aunt is well. Must be on the McElwaine side as their father (writer of the letter) is JOHN Cruikshank ?? 

Les McKeague

I have been in communication with Les while he was writing his books. I purchased  both of them. He very kindly went to the Lisball Cruikshank home and smithy and took some photos of it for me. He is aware of the unknown cemetery of the Lisball Cruikshanks. He kept an eye out for them while visiting the likely/possible cemeteries when doing his book.

The last of this family to die there is the illegitimate daughter of Jane Cruikshank - Ann-Jane, mentioned above.Her funeral was at Trinity Baileborough in 1944.I strongly believe she would have been buried with her aunts and uncles wherever they are. Her husband was John James Chambers who died in 1950 (aged 81) - and I am sure he would have been buried with her too wherever that is !!  I can't believe that with a burial as recent as that ,that there would not be some family member around who would remember where HE  was buried. !!

John James' father was Robert Chambers and mother Annie  MARTIN. You chased up that he had a brother T.(Thomas) S.Chambers 'informant' on John's death entry, who lived in Blyth Northumberland. Maureen Chambers (mentioned below) may know if there are any/many descendants.who may be knwledgeable of John's story. .  

Les very kindly sends me an email occasionally when something historical happens in Baileborough that he thinks I may be interested in .Robbie Cochrane was living in the Cruikshank house until his death in Feb 2019. Les tried to send his death notice but  sadly it did not come through to me, for some reason . On my 1866 membership list of Trinity, Cochranes are members too as well as  John and Robert  Cruikshanks, (note the s on the end) and Robert Small and Mrs Small !! The McElwaines attended the Corglass Church I am told but they also appear on this Trinity List Treasurer of the church was Henry McElwaine, Members were;  R.McElwaine,M.D.  Richard,McElwaine, Henry and William McElwaine. !!  

Another lead I had was  from a previous contact over there. She had done a bit of looking and made a few phone calls. She was in contact with a Maureen Chambers (nee Maureen Small) Her father was Gibson Small and her mother ANNE-JANE Corcoran born in 1933. Her mother was born and raised in Lisball and Maureen is quite sure that her grandmother named Maureen's mother after Anne-Jane Cruikshank. Bob Chambers or Bobbie Chambers is the person she would have known in that area. I have Maureen Chambers ph. no 0035342 9675762..Maureen may remember where he is buried ??? I believe the Chambers  are in the Gartenane area .He was quite an active member at Trinity Baileborough ,as were  other Chambers folk. Les sent me some pages/lists  1866 from the Trinity chuch books .Les is a builder by trade he tells me. I wonder if there are still Chambers nieces and nephews of John around ?

I don't recognise any of the Cruikshank names in that other post as being anyone I can tie us up  with. 

I will let you know if/when I get the deaths certs - we may get a few clues ........ or any more definite info. I can establish from North America tied up with Lisball.Thanks again for your persistence Elwyn, so so very much appreciated. If I could just find their graves that would be the ultimate. As Les said ,they may not have tombstones anyway !! You would have thought John would have put one up for Anne Jane in 1944 as he would have come into a bit of money  when marrying her late in life !! You wonder where all her photos and family memorabilia went don't you ? We could only hope it was passed on to a Chambers  family member !! 

I am sorry to have babbled on for so long Elwyn but am trying to give you ANY small facts thay may be able to be followed up. I asked Les if the funeral directors in Baileborough would have their books still listing the cemetery in 1944 or 1950. He said there was a Catholic one and another. I think they would have had the 'other' I have asked if there woulf be Lisball school records secured anywhere? Can't think of anywhere else we may get a clue. 

Must finish here Elwyn , again, thanks for all, Jenny. 

 Elwyn I was just looking over my 2013 McElwaine notes. Eliz married John Cruikshank. 
They were in Lisgar rather than Lisball. 
There was a Joy McElwaine in the Baileborough Pharmacy . She is the grand daughter of Richard (teacher at Lisball ) married to Jane McDowell  (B 1871) and she is a daughter of Albert. 
Richard  and the doctor's father is John McElwaine 
 Wife Jane . Joy  says there is a William McElwaine in Lisgar

who would be 'worth ringing.' If we could get who Richard's  (B 1853) father's  SIBLINGS.  were l, I believe we may have a sister Elizabeth. 
The McElwaine home still has family in it. 
I am very happy to forward  any expenses you may run up If you make any phone calls Elwyn. 
Apparently there were two lots of McElwaine families, one in Lisball area and the other in Lisgar. 
According to our 1880 family letter Richard 'moved to the Lisball school to teach and built his house'  next to it. ( not sure from where he moved but I guess it may be from Lisgar) 

I am not sure where you are based Elwyn. But just thought these few bits of info from my notes may open a few doors. 
Just thought living people may be able to recall or have family documents/ memorabilia with names on it. 
Just  a thought.Trying to think how I can help your search.  I just wish I was closer to do it myself. 
Jenny 

Jenny,

I can’t help directly with finding who replaced Thomas on lot 3 in Lisball.  Griffiths Valuation for that townland was compiled in 1855. So he was there then. There is a set of records that take that information forward right up to about 1930. They are called the Valuation Revision records (sometimes the Cancelled Books). Griffiths clerks revisited properties every couple of years and noted changes of occupant, landlord and of improvements or deterioration to buildings and land. Their amendments were written in a different coloured ink for each year. They used each book for about 10 years before starting a new one. Typically there’s about 6 books covering the period 1855 – 1930.  So using those books you can track forward. However the records for the Republic of Ireland are not on-line. They are held by the Valuation office in Dublin and they will do look ups for you, though I think there is a fee to pay.

https://www.valoff.ie/en/archive-research/

I have attached an example of a page from the Revision records for a townland in Co. Antrim (the records for Northern Ireland are on-line) to give you an idea of how the information was recorded and amended.

You ask if your family would have used much Gaelic in the 1800s.  I’d say it was unlikely. If they came from Scotland in the 1600s they would most likely have spoken it then but, as in Scotland, English gradually replaced Gaelic, and in Ireland especially amongst the protestant population. 

Gaelic faded at different speeds in different areas but as an example, the last native Gaelic speaker in Ayrshire reputedly died when Robert Burns was 2 years old  (ie 1761).

Source: http://www.spns.org.uk/CtAyr.html

In Scotland one of the reasons Gaelic disappeared was commercial. If you were conducting business with England or elsewhere, Gaelic wasn’t much use. English was the language used in business and industry. Ireland was much the same. So Gaelic continued uninterrupted in remoter parts of Scotland and in rural Ireland but in Dublin or Edinburgh or Aberdeen you needed to speak English to get on. (Your ancestors trained  as Doctors and teachers. They needed to speak fluent English to do that). 

I was on the island of Inish Turk some years ago off the coast of Co Mayo.  Population is about 70 or 80. It’s largely English speaking. I had expected there to be a strong tradition of Irish. The islanders explained that all through the 1800s and early 1900s they knew there would never be jobs for their children on the island and so they encouraged them to speak English all the time. If they were to find a decent job in Dublin, London or New York they needed English. If they only spoke Irish/Gaelic they’d be almost unemployable. So economic necessity had pushed their culture aside. Sad, but it’s how life is sometimes.

http://www.inishturkisland.com

Here’s some notes I made a few years ago about the use of Gaelic by Scots settlers in Ireland. It was fairly common in the 1600s and 1700s (and there’s specific mention of Scots in Cavan speaking it then) but by the 1800s it wasn’t used that much.

“Native Gaelic-Speaking Protestants

There is much circumstantial evidence of Protestants who were native speakers of Gaelic, and other Protestants who became very fluent through everyday interaction with other native speakers. Many of these Protestant Gaelic speakers came from Scotland. During the plantations of Ulster in the early 1600s only ‘inland Scots’ were supposed to be settlers; this policy was intended to exclude Gaelic-speaking Highlanders, but failed to do so. When the Marquis of Argyll brought his troops to Antrim during the 1640s uprisings, most of them would have been Gaelic speakers, and many settled in Ireland when they had finished their military service. Overpopulation and the commercialisation of estates in Scotland also pushed people from Argyll to Antrim in the 1690s; sometimes the dispossessed were recruited for military campaigns in Ireland.

During the time of the Plantations of Ulster there was little difference between the Gaelic of many Scottish settlers and the Irish of the natives. The Irish of Antrim shared many features with Scottish Gaelic, and the Gaelic of Kintyre and Argyll was very similar to Antrim Irish. Robert MacAdam wrote in 1873:

Even yet the Glensmen of Antrim go regularly to Highland fairs, and communicate without the slightest difficulty with the Highlanders. Having myself conversed with both Glensmen and Arranmen, I can testify to the absolute identity of their speech (Ó Baoill 2000: 122).

There are some fascinating accounts which prove that some of the Protestant settlers in Ulster spoke Scottish Gaelic. John Richardson (1664-1747), rector of Belturbet in County Cavan since 1693, wrote some interesting letters on the subject. In 1711 a correspondent of Richardson, J. Maguire, noted the following:

I met many of the inhabitants, especially of the baronies of Glenarm, Dunluce and Kilconaway, who could not speak the English tongue, and asking them in Irish what religion they professed they answered they were Presbyterians ... I had the curiosity to go to their meeting on the Sunday following, where I heard their minister preach to them in Irish at which (though I think he did not do it well,) they expressed great devotion ... His audience, (as I understand) was composed of native Irish and Highlanders (Richardson 1711: 16).

Richardson noted that many Highlanders had settled in deserted lands in Inishowen and Antrim after the Williamite conquest, and as they spoke no English, were supplied with Gaelic-speaking ministers from Scotland:

In the Northern Parts of the County of Antrim, which being also deserted by the Irish, upon the landing of the English army near Carrickfergus in 1689, many families from the Western Isles of Scotland, who understood no other language but Irish, settled there. At their first going over, they went to church; but not understanding the divine service celebrated there, they soon went over to the communion of the Church of Rome, only for the benefit of such exhortations, as the Popish priests usually give their congregations in Irish. And when they were asked the reason, why they did so? They said, ‘It was better to be of their religion, than none at all’ (Richardson 1711: 28-9).

Some of these Scottish settlers were Anglican. When Presbyterian government was established in Scotland in 1689, disaffected Scottish Episcopalians came to live in North Antrim (Ó Snodaigh 1995: 33). Cathal Dallat notes that Rasharkin was settled by Anglican Highlanders who petitioned the Bishop of Connor to provide them with a Gaelic-speaking minister (1994: 38-9).

Richardson noted that the Bishop of Down provided North Antrim Presbyterians with the Gaelic-speaking Reverend Archibald Mac Collum, who... has taken such effectual pains with the Irish and Highlanders of them, that by the blessing of God he has not only brought back numbers who had fallen off from our Church to that of Rome, but brought over several who were originally Irish Papists, and is every day gaining upon them (Richardson 1711: 14).

Scottish Gaelic speakers settled in many areas of the North. A souvenir booklet of Loughgall Presbyterian Church in Armagh notes the Scottish origin of the congregation, and continues, ‘ We glean that the Scotch settlers here still used the Gaelic of their native Scotland, a language spoken also by the Irish in the district. The Rev Archibald Macclane, who hailed from Argyle, and was a fluent speaker in the native tongue, preached in Loughgall meeting house in Gaelic in 1717’ (1954: 3-4).”

Source: www.ultach.dsl.pipex.com/ForLearners/Prodhistory.pdf

You mention Maureen Chambers. I’d suggest it might be worth ringing her to see if she can assist. (If you have her address I’d write first to prepare her for the call, and perhaps so she can have a think about what she can remember. Cold calls put people off).

Another option might be to contact the churches. If they have Facebook pages (and many do) you could post genealogical queries there to see if anyone can help. Or to contact any Chambers etc in the area.

Finding where someone is buried in Ireland is often quite hard. In the US and in other jurisdictions the place of burial is often recorded on the death certificate. We don’t do that in Ireland, or in the UK. Perhaps we should. And family burial grounds can often be somewhere odd, nowhere near the church they attended all their lives. Our custom in Ireland in the 1800s and still today is to bury 3 days after death (nearly all denominations try to follow that custom). If you live in an urban area there is time to put a funeral notice in the local papers, which usually gave details of where the person was to be buried. However in rural areas the local paper tended to be a weekly publication and so there was little point posting a funeral notice there. They’d be buried before it was published. So tricky.

Les is correct in commenting that there may be no gravestones. However farmers usually could afford a gravestone. Labourers and most of the population couldn’t but some of your family were farmers or in other professions where their financial circumstances seem a bit above the average. I’d expect them to have gravestones. But of course I might be wrong. Plenty of gravestones have either eroded, or are illegible, crumbled or fallen flat. The modern litigious culture means that many people responsible for graveyards are very cautious if they see a gravestone leaning at all, and get workmen to drop them flat (sometimes face down) to prevent accidents and claims. Makes them rather hard to read.

You ask where all the family memorabilia went.  I obviously don’t know but I can tell you that in my own family, my father had records, photos and letters going back 3 generations. However when he died, my mother decided (without discussing it with me) that they were of no interest to anyone and threw them all out. I suspect that my family is not the only one where that happened. Speaking from personal experience, when clearing a deceased person’s house, the relatives can get a bit intimidated by the sheer quantity of stuff they have gathered over the years.  They start off trying to be discerning but ultimately just start throwing everything into waste bags and take them all to the local tip or charity shop. (There’s probably a lesson there. If you have things you treasure, put them in a special place and specify clearly in your will and elsewhere what you want done with them).

You ask about school attendance records. Findmypast have some of them (not every schools records have survived of course):

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/ireland-national-school-registers

You mention there is a William McElwaine in Lisgar today. Our policy in Ireland Reaching Out is not to give out details of living people. So I can’t directly give you his contact details. However I can confirm that the current phone book does list someone of that name in that townland. You might want to search & make contact yourself:

https://www.eirphonebook.ie/q/name/

There are 2 other McElwaines living nearby. Again I’d suggest a letter precedes any phone call. You are more likely to get help if you approach it that way.

You ask where I live. I live just outside Belfast, about 80 miles from Bailieborough. So not really close enough to help with local enquiries. However we do have an excellent volunteer who does live locally (Carmel O’Callaghan) and I can put you in touch with her, if you need local help.

Jenny,

You’ll be a bit annoyed. Irishgenealogy have just added a few more years death records to their free site. (Years 1871 to 1877). Just in the last couple of days. So you can now view that 1873 Robert Crookshanks death certificate free.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1873/020688/7259070.pdf

He was a widower who lived in Lisnalskey (which also seems to be known as Lisanalsk). Informant was Jane Crookshanks. Griffiths lists Robert there on plot 5 (a 14 acre farm).

Lisanalsk is just south of Bailieborough. No Crookshanks there by 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Bailieboro/Lisanalsk/

I had a look in the records to see who the Jane might be (a daughter or daughter in law perhaps) but could not identify her.

Thanks for your message Elwyn. I haven't paid any euros yet for the certificates. 
sadly we don't find out much from the certificate of Robert. I will look further at his son's  family names in the US that may give us a clue. 
Will keep you posted. Thanks again, Jenny 

Hello Elwyn , me again, I have had a very positive response to my letter to the Blairgowrie Hist Soc offering to research the Gellatly's. 

I also have received the death certificate of Thomas Cruickshanks He died on 3 Feb at LISBALL. he was still 'married' and aged 76 'farmer'  Died of bronchitis and debility .Susana CHAMBERS was present at his death in Gartenane !! Death registered at Baileborough .That Chambers name comes up again. I am yet to write to her and a McElwaine re Cruikshank family information.Thanks for the phone book ! Nor have I had a chance to look at the school records that may exist for Lisball National School. 

As I mentioned  earlier, I have quietly been working away on the north American Cruikshanks - those who left Lisball, Baileborough, to try to find siblings of John (McElwaine) 1799-1877 and perhaps his father's name. I have found a connection  to our Lisball Cruikshanks with 5 families.but I don’t think the paperwork/records  in Ireland at the time is available to confirm anything.

To identify the Cruikshank I am referring to to clarify  all these repetitive family names by putting their wife’s name  in brackets!

I am amazed at the repetition of names in each family- Hugh, William, James, John and Alexander. I believe John’s (McElwaine) brothers, and or father would have had one or all of these names. Makes me think there is a family  connection with  this too. 

As we have established, John (McElwaine) definitely had a bachelor brother - Alexander Cruikshank.

1.  Dr William Cruikshank B Ireland 1826-1886.

 Dr William Cruikshank married Agnes Hannah Gray in 1855 in N.Y Agnes was born in N.Y .He would have completed his medical studies in Ireland. 

The connection to emigrant Hugh ,living in N.Y  (son of John -Mcelwaine) left money in his will to (Dr) William’s  2 surviving  children  Clara and Freddie Cruikshank. Dr William’s father was also William Cruikshank, The money fact strengthens the percieved connection !! Dr William lived not far from Hugh 'farmer' in Carthage/Croghan N.Y.State.

2.John Cruikshank B 1795 Lisball and his brother Hugh Cruikshank B 1792 Their father was Alexander Cruikshank 1766-1833 Ireland, and their grandfather was Hugh Cruikshank.

When John’s (McElwaine) son, Hugh emigrated to America at the age of 19, (1857 ish) he went straight up to Nthn N.Y State where these brothers Hugh (Elizabeth Hughes) and John Cruikshank (Rachel Norris) were successful farmers (Lisbon - St Lawrence County)

 Just to complicate things Hugh ended up marrying the daughter of John (Rachel Norris) Cruikshank  - Jane M Cruikshank. Jane was the same age as Hugh  B 1837  Lisball Baileborough and she would have been about 10 when her family left Baileborough for America. So Hugh would have known her from before she left.  He left Ireland nine years later when he was 19.

This double up of the Cruikshank name has added another difficulty as in the case where I see reference in a newspaper etc. that a Cruikshank was ‘related to Hugh’  it could have been through his wife Jane Cruikshank’s side – and not directly  his  own !! I believe these brothers at the closest, would be cousins of Hugh's father John (McElwaine) Perhaps their father Alexander  Cruikshank may have been a brother to John (McElwaine) .

John Cruikshank  married Rachel Norris in Ireland. (no date) Their children were all born there. Alexander 1823,John 1827,James 1834,Robert 1835 and Jane 1837. They emigrated about 1847-49.

3. Hugh Cruikshank B 1792 Lisball.

John's (Rachel Norris) brother mentioned above ,Hugh Cruikshank, married Elizabeth Hughes (also Irish) but I am not sure if they married in Ireland or America..All their children were born in N.Y State - John 1827,Margaret,1829,Dr James 1831, and Hugh 1837. Connection here is that Dr James Cruikshank was an eminent edicationalist  in Brooklyn N.Y  In his obit is mentions he is a 'relative' of Hugh Cruikshank (of Carthage.) He would be of course  through Hugh's wife as Hugh married Jane M Cruikshank - who would have been Dr James' cousin  !!  

4 Hugh Cruikshank who married Jane Thistle in Baileborough  Jan 1867.

We have their marriage entry in Baileborough This Hugh's father was Robert Cruikshank (B 1797-1873) from Lisanalsk The only connection may be  'Baileborough' and the names of their children. Their first 5 children were born in Baileborough May Ann B 1869,Robert B 1871,Margaret B 1876, and Annie B 1878.They then emigrated and had William James and Hugh in Ontario     ( repetitive names again) Only connection is Baileborough and the same children's names. 

5.William Henry Cruikshank 'farmer' B Ireland 1814 married Abigail Young in Ireland .

William's father is James Alexander Cruickshank and his mother is Martha Thompson (both Irish) William and Abigail  migrated to Canada about 1840. All their 9 children were born there. Connection is their son John Young Cruikshank(a lawyer) was murdered by one of his clients and in the newspaper article there is a sentence that  says 'John was a 'cousin of Hugh! Cruikshank from Carthage (so definitely is our Lisball Hugh)

So you can see Elwyn because we have no records of the older Irish Cruikshanks we probably cannot establish any relationships !! 

My thinking is that Alexander Cruikshank - the father of the Cruikshank brothers - Hugh and John, may have been a cousin of John (McElwaine) Cruikshank,and their fathers brothers. So Alexander could be a brother of John's father (McElwaine) and  that would make John's (McElwaine) grandfather  Hugh Cruikshank !!!! probably born about 1740 !! 

We can get no closer than that sadly. 

I will now go back to the phone book, and school records if they exist !! 

Thanks once again , but I do not think any of these records, of old dates and relationships can be around. So close but so far. What the America research has exposed is the relationship of Hugh with the farming Cruikshank brothers !!

Until next time Elwyn, thank again for your last notes they are always so helpful, informative and interesting. Jenny 

Hello,

So interesting reading the previous posts on the Cruickshank/Cruickshank/Cruikshank/Crookshank/etc. family from Baileiborough and surrounding area of County Cavan.

I am researching my direct relations who I am sure are related.  My Great Great Grandfather is Robert Cruickshank 1808-1898, Cavan.  Died 27 Apr 1898, Drumhillagh, Shercock, Cavan.  Married Elizabeth "Eliza" Bradley 1819-1889.  She is buried at the Killan Church of Ireland, Shercock, Cavan.  Eliza had a sister Anne Bradley 1811-1894, married to John Campbell 1811-1859.

According to Griffith's Valuation, Robert had a farm in Lisanalsk, Bailieborough, leased from Sir John Young.  It included house, offices and land.  1848-1864

Robert and Eliza had numerous children.

William (my Great Grandfather) 1838-1890.  Moved to America

Agnes 1840-1927 Australia

Jane 1842-1927 Australia

Eliza 1845-1926 America

Alexander 1847- 

James 1851-1938 America

Robert 1854-1926 Australia

Martha 1856-1884 Cavan

Mary Ann 1858-1884 Cavan

Samuel 1862-1937 Australia

John 1864-1954 Australia

I believe that Robert's father (my Great Great Great Grandfather) was James Alexander Cruickshank 1770-1841.  Born in Cavan.  It may be that James was a brother to your John.  He was married to Martha Thomson 1770-1841.  They had seven children - Isabel 1790, James 1795-1886, Sarah 1795-1878, Robert (my G-G-Grandfather) 1808-1898, Samuel 1810-1885, William Henry 1813-1896, Stafford 1826-.

So it is likely that my family were cousins, or second cousins to your family.

A note, I have done research on the Cruickshank family and believe that they come from a region of Scotland south of Aberdeen, west of Montrose.  There is a Cruick Water (river or creek) there.  Also I read that a Shank was the top of a hill, or plateau.  So the derivation of the Cruickshank clan could have come from that region.

Thanks,

Don Cruikshank

Don,

The name Cruickshank (and its various variant spellings) is fairly widespread across all of Scotland. If you look at the 1841 Scottish census on Scotlandspeople you will find 2711, right across the country from the Orkney Islands in the far north to Dumfries-shire on the English border. They aren’t just concentrated in one small area.  Nor are they necessarily named after a location, so I’d be just a bit careful about assuming your family came from Montrose based solely on the fact that there’s a place there named Cruik. They might but there are many other possibilities too. 

To me, the word shank, in both Scotland and Ireland, generally means a leg. It’s still in everyday use. Your local butcher today in both countries will happily sell you a lamb shank which is a leg of lamb. The English King Edward I (“Hammer of the Scots”) was nicknamed “Edward Longshanks” because of his long legs.

For me the name Cruickshank is likely a descriptive name, like Armstrong or Little. It probably means a man with crooked legs. (Sorry if that’s not what you wanted to hear!). Other explanations are probably available on the internet but I would keep an open mind on exactly where the family may come from in Scotland.

Hello Don (and Elwyn) ,I have seen your name Don when I have been scratching around American infiormation and have kept you in the back of my mind but I could not connect any of your names  to what I know of our family from the scant Irish records . There are the common factors of coming from Cavan, some of the naming matches, and the 5 who went to Australia - to where our Jane and William Cruikshank came.(I am from Jane's line) 

I know our John Cruikshank  1799-1877 had a brother  Alexander 1805-1888 and that is ALL I know about his close relatives- other than his wife and children. I agree there is probably a connection to your family somewhere but due to the lack of information it is hard to prove. I have done some work on the American and Canadian Cruikshanks  with connections back to Cavan, hoping they may have some information about their forebears but so far I have not been able to see anyone who may fit .I have drawn up a few of their trees to see them more clearly but frustratingly I have come to a dead end. Elwyn has been a marrvellous and  knowlegeable support throughout  my searching. 

Perhaps if you can tell me a little about your Australian relatives- where they settled when they came we may see some connections !! William C 1843-1911 a 'blacksmith' from Lisball Cavan Baileborough , in 1863 and finally settled in Victoria. His sister Jane 1849-1890 came here in 1868 and she too settled and had her family in the Victorian Wimmera . They were not far from each other and their families kept in contact .William and wife Rebecca Martin later moved to Sydney where he ultimately died.Jane died at 39 of hydatids leaving a young family who were each reared by farming neighbours. 

That is about all I can say sadly. I too would love to find a proven connection to John (and wife Eliz McElwaine) and believe me, Elwyn has turned over every grain of sand for me. She found me John's brother 'Alic'- Alexander which was a real milestone !! 

Elwyn I have been thinking back, - you said you had a connection with IrelandXO more familiar with the Lisball Baileborough area .Thinking of the frustration of finding where all the family may be buried I was wondering if it would be possible for me to ask her if she may have any leads to their grave whereabouts..The fact that  Anne-Jane Cruikshank died as  recently  at Baileborough as  1944 and her husband Robert Chambers 1950 ,it must be that their grave/ tombstone may still exist !! Would it be worth passing on my family information to that person in the chance they may have local connection/ knowledge of the cemeteries in the Lisball area .Perhaps guess the church connection of her older family??

So Don, that is my thinking ,that perhaps give me a few clues as to where your Australian connections settled and we may find a connection. between ours here.Bye for now, Jenny Gellatly  

Hello Don (and Elwyn) ,I have seen your name Don when I have been scratching around American infiormation and have kept you in the back of my mind but I could not connect any of your names  to what I know of our family from the scant Irish records . There are the common factors of coming from Cavan, some of the naming matches, and the 5 who went to Australia - to where our Jane and William Cruikshank came.(I am from Jane's line) 

I know our John Cruikshank  1799-1877 had a brother  Alexander 1805-1888 and that is ALL I know about his close relatives- other than his wife and children. I agree there is probably a connection to your family somewhere but due to the lack of information it is hard to prove. I have done some work on the American and Canadian Cruikshanks  with connections back to Cavan, hoping they may have some information about their forebears but so far I have not been able to see anyone who may fit .I have drawn up a few of their trees to see them more clearly but frustratingly I have come to a dead end. Elwyn has been a marrvellous and  knowlegeable support throughout  my searching. 

Perhaps if you can tell me a little about your Australian relatives- where they settled when they came we may see some connections !! William C 1843-1911 a 'blacksmith' from Lisball Cavan Baileborough , in 1863 and finally settled in Victoria. His sister Jane 1849-1890 came here in 1868 and she too settled and had her family in the Victorian Wimmera . They were not far from each other and their families kept in contact .William and wife Rebecca Martin later moved to Sydney where he ultimately died.Jane died at 39 of hydatids leaving a young family who were each reared by farming neighbours. 

That is about all I can say sadly. I too would love to find a proven connection to John (and wife Eliz McElwaine) and believe me, Elwyn has turned over every grain of sand for me. She found me John's brother 'Alic'- Alexander which was a real milestone !! 

Elwyn I have been thinking back, - you said you had a connection with IrelandXO more familiar with the Lisball Baileborough area .Thinking of the frustration of finding where all the family may be buried I was wondering if it would be possible for me to ask her if she may have any leads to their grave whereabouts..The fact that  Anne-Jane Cruikshank died as  recently  at Baileborough as  1944 and her husband Robert Chambers 1950 ,it must be that their grave/ tombstone may still exist !! Would it be worth passing on my family information to that person in the chance they may have local connection/ knowledge of the cemeteries in the Lisball area .Perhaps guess the church connection of her older family??

So Don, that is my thinking ,that perhaps give me a few clues as to where your Australian connections settled and we may find a connection. between ours here.Bye for now, Jenny Gellatly  

Hello Don (and Elwyn) ,I have seen your name Don when I have been scratching around American infiormation and have kept you in the back of my mind but I could not connect any of your names  to what I know of our family from the scant Irish records . There are the common factors of coming from Cavan, some of the naming matches, and the 5 who went to Australia - to where our Jane and William Cruikshank came.(I am from Jane's line) 

I know our John Cruikshank  1799-1877 had a brother  Alexander 1805-1888 and that is ALL I know about his close relatives- other than his wife and children. I agree there is probably a connection to your family somewhere but due to the lack of information it is hard to prove. I have done some work on the American and Canadian Cruikshanks  with connections back to Cavan, hoping they may have some information about their forebears but so far I have not been able to see anyone who may fit .I have drawn up a few of their trees to see them more clearly but frustratingly I have come to a dead end. Elwyn has been a marrvellous and  knowlegeable support throughout  my searching. 

Perhaps if you can tell me a little about your Australian relatives- where they settled when they came we may see some connections !! William C 1843-1911 a 'blacksmith' from Lisball Cavan Baileborough , in 1863 and finally settled in Victoria. His sister Jane 1849-1890 came here in 1868 and she too settled and had her family in the Victorian Wimmera . They were not far from each other and their families kept in contact .William and wife Rebecca Martin later moved to Sydney where he ultimately died.Jane died at 39 of hydatids leaving a young family who were each reared by farming neighbours. 

That is about all I can say sadly. I too would love to find a proven connection to John (and wife Eliz McElwaine) and believe me, Elwyn has turned over every grain of sand for me. She found me John's brother 'Alic'- Alexander which was a real milestone !! 

Elwyn I have been thinking back, - you said you had a connection with IrelandXO more familiar with the Lisball Baileborough area .Thinking of the frustration of finding where all the family may be buried I was wondering if it would be possible for me to ask her if she may have any leads to their grave whereabouts..The fact that  Anne-Jane Cruikshank died as  recently  at Baileborough as  1944 and her husband Robert Chambers 1950 ,it must be that their grave/ tombstone may still exist !! Would it be worth passing on my family information to that person in the chance they may have local connection/ knowledge of the cemeteries in the Lisball area .Perhaps guess the church connection of her older family??

So Don, that is my thinking ,that perhaps give me a few clues as to where your Australian connections settled and we may find a connection. between ours here.Bye for now, Jenny Gellatly  

Jenny,

Our expert for Co Cavan is my colleague Carmel O’Callaghan. Carmel, if you read this, can you comment on likely graveyards for a Presbyterian buried around Bailieborough?

Hi Jenny and Elwyn,

Thank you for getting back to me.  Regarding my family who immigrated to Australia:

Agnes Cruikshank 1840-1927, b. Kilmacarron, Cavan, was married in 1870 Sydney, New South Wales, Australia to William Peirce.  Died in Marrickville, NSW.  No record of children.

Jane Cruikshank 1842-1927, b. Kilmacarron, married 1881 Sydney, to John Linton. Died Camden, NSW.  No record of children.

Alexander Cruikshank 1847-, b. Kilmacarron, no other records

James Cruikshank 1851-1938, b. Kilmacarron, went to America

Robert Cruikshank 1854-1926, b. Kilmacarron, married 1887 Windsor, NSW to Marion Greig.  Died Windsor.  All five of his children were born in New South Wales.  John, Marion, William, Eliza, RG (Rev)

Martha Cruikshank 1856-1884, b. Ireland, d. Kilmacarron

Mary Ann Cruikshank 1858-1884, b. Ireland, d. Kilmacarron

Samuel Cruikshank 1862-1937, b. Ireland, married 1895 Bailieborough, to Elizabeth Harper.  All of his children born in Bailieboro.  Immigrated to Windsor 1922.  d. Sydney.  Children: Mary Anne in Sydney, Mary Ann in America, Charlotte "Sophy" in Epping NSW, John "Jack" in Wagga Wagga NSW, Samuel in Granville NSW

I hope some of this is meaningful.

Thanks again,

Don

Oops.  Left out some.

John Cruickshank 1864-1954, b. Cootehill, Cavan, married 1908 Boulburn NSW to Jane Fairley.  d. Goulburn NSW. All children born in NSW. Marjorie, Agnes, Alison, John, Roberta

William Cruikshank 1838-1890.  My Great Grandfather.  b. Kilmacaran. Went to America.

Eliza 1845-1926, b. Kilmacaran.  Went to America

Don