Joseph Patrick Dougan, born 1886

Hi David,

You should try  General Register Office Northern Ireland for deaths which are 50 years or more. GRONI - Free to search.

Regards,

Hi.  Many thanks for your reply.

I have actually checked GRONI already.  It assisted in allowing me to find his birth ceretificate, which shows his DOB as 26 March 1886, as opposed to 4 March 1886 shown on his military records.

Unfortunately, it does not show me any records for his death.  There is evidence that he died prior to 1937 in Belfast but he does not appear in their records.  I am starting to think he may have died elsewhere.

Do you know if there is a GRONI equivalent in Eire as maybe it is worth me checking that side of the border?

Thanks again for your assistance,

Regards,

David

Hi David,

I attach birth record of a "Joseph Dougan" 57, Cypress Street, Belfast. Father - Joseph Dougan - Mother - Rose Anne Mullins.

Is this the person you are trying to trace?

Baptism record per subscription site  www.rootsireland.ie -  Birth - March 18th 1886 - Baptism - March 21st 1886. Name recorded as "Joseph Dugan" Junior. Father - Joseph Dugan a Sailor. Address recorded as 37 Cypress Street. Foot note on baptism record: June 7th 1913 married in Gibraltar Elizabeth Bruce.

There is no "Patrick" shown on either record. A check in Irish Genealogy records and www.findmypast.ie did not have a Joseph Patrick Dougan - 1930 - 1940.

His military record should show his intended address on retirement.

Best Wishes,

Further information - Joseph Dougan.

Attached copy of 1901 census for Belfast. Joseph Senior is recorded as a "Merchant Sailor" . Born in County Down. Address: Albert Place, DED of Smithfield.

No record found in 1911, so apparently they have left the Country. In the Form B1 he is recorded as "Duggan"!

Regards,

Hello,

McCoy.

Thanks again for your assistance.  You are being a great help.

I have already located that birth record, showing a DOB of 26 March 1886 - and yes, that is the person I am trying to trace.

The 'rootsireland' baptism record also relates to the same person (although name spelt wrongly) however I note that this shows a DOB as 18 March 1886.

Then again, I have some of his original miltary records in my possession which show his DOB as 4 March 1886.  None of these military records showed his address upon retirement and I have not been able to locate one online.  I do know, from family knowledge, that after leaving the army, he and his wife lived at 26 Donegall Gardens, Belfast.

I also have his 1901 census, which you attached, and I have found him in a 1911 census record where he was listed with the army.

My main aim is to try and locate his death or burial record.  I have tried Ancestry.com, Irish Genealogy, Find my Past, Belfast City Council and GRONI without success.  With GRONI, I have located a Joseph Dougan, 56 years, who died in the Royal Victoria Hospital on 12 January 1942 (SEE ATTACHED).  His address at the time (Ava Drive, Belfast) is only two miles from the Donegall Gardens address.  I just can't confirm either way whether this is the person I am looking for.

Are you able to advise me whether the Belfast City Council site (https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx) covers ALL the cemeteries in Belfast or are there others I should be checking?

I am at a loss on what else I can do to locate his date/place of burial and would appreciate any further assistance you can offer.

Regards,

David

Hi David,

42, Ava Drive appears to be in the area of Ormeau, Belfast. I suggest that you contact the Secretary at Ormeau R.C. Church.  Email: holyrosary@downandconnor.org to see if there was a funeral for a Joseph Dougan in early January 1941.

You can also contact the Cemetery Authorities, but you must remember that Belfast was bombed and records may not be available.

A search of newspapers for 1941 showed a number of "Dougan", no Joseph Dougan showed up.

Good Luck with the search.

Thank you again McCoy for your ongoing assistance.  I have sent off an email to the Ormeau RC Church so, fingers crossed, that will provide further information.

May I ask what you mean by the 'Cemetery Authorities'.  Is this the Belfast City Council or is there another authority specific to cemeteries?

I have been using a Belfast City Council site (https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx).  Are you able to tell me whether this covers ALL cemeteries in Belfast?  If not, am I able to obtain a list of any cemeteries not covered by the Belfast City Council as I would be happy to contact them individually in an effort to find the death/burial record (providing the Ormeau leads does not pan out)?

Thanks again.  You are being a great help.

Regards,

David

Hello McCoy,

May I just clarify a couple of things please.

In one of the above replies, you stated, "Baptism record per subscription site  www.rootsireland.ie -  Birth - March 18th 1886 - Baptism - March 21st 1886. Name recorded as "Joseph Dugan" Junior. Father - Joseph Dugan a Sailor. Address recorded as 37 Cypress Street. Foot note on baptism record: June 7th 1913 married in Gibraltar Elizabeth Bruce."

May I ask whether, in this record, it just provides this information in a list or does it actually display an image of the original baptism record?

Also, you previously mentioned 'Cemetery Authorities'.  May I ask whether this just relates to the Belfast City Council or is there another authority specific to cemeteries?

Could I also ask your advice re something.  So far, I have found three birth records for Josephg Dougan.  I have confirmed they all relate to the correct person as, in all cases, there is corroborating information (eg mother/father's name, father's occupation, address etc).  The different dates of birth were obtained from:

4 March 1886 - written clearly on military documents in my possession and obtained personally from the family;

18 March 1886 - obtained from you in the above baptism record.  Baptism listed as 21 March 1886; and

26 March 1886 - on an official extract of birth obtained by me from GRONI.

In a case like this, which record do you believe is most likely to be correct?  I am leaning towards to baptrism record as both the birth/baptism dates precede the birth record from GRONI and, if the record was written contemoraeously, it makes sense the baptism occurred three days after the birth.  What do you think?

Many thanks again for your assistance,

Regards,

David

Hi David,

I attach a subscribed copy of the baptism of "Joseph Dugan" whose mother is recorded as Rose Ann Dugan.

I have not found a Civil birth record to correspond. In the Civil record for "Joseph Dougan" his mother is recorded as Rose Emma, nee Mullins.

The Ulster Historical Society may be able to clarify the position.

Regards,

Hi David,

Please see attached which you probably have already. When Joseph re-enlisted he gave his address as "Shankill". Was his wife from there?

The detail in regard to marriage confirms what is on the baptism record.

Regards,

McCoy,

Thank you again for your ongoing assistance.  It really is very much appreciated.

I do not have the military record you attached, although I do already have all the information it contains.  I have some original military documents that were in possession of the family.  I have been able to establish that he was with the British Army from 1908 to 1929.  In these military records, he lists his DOB as 4 March and POB as Shankhill.  His birth record however shows a DOB of 26 March and POB as 57 Cypress Street, (Belfast).  As you will note, this address is very similar to the one shown in the baptism record you found for me, 37 Cyprus Street.  It is apparent that the birth record (26 March), the baptism record (18 March) and his military records (4 March) all relate to the same person.  His mother is recorded as 'Rose Emma' and 'Rose Ann' in various documents.

I have actually compiled quite a bit of information for his timeline but I am afraid the actual date/place of death and, more importantly, his burial, remains elusive.

It is the burial information that is most important for the family.

Other than the Belfast City Council online search facility for burials, are there any other central authorities I could check?

Regards,

David

Hi David,

When and where did his wife Elizabeth die?  Burials in Ireland are complex. I suggest that you put a request in the Belfast Telegraph.

Someone who knew of his family may come forward, distant relatives or former neighbours. Even if you find a possible burial place, without a gravestone you will have no proof.

Regards,

Thanks again.

His wife was buried in Moneyreagh Cemetery , County Down, Northern Ireland but not until 1967.

The belief in the family was that he died around 1937 but there is no evidence to support it and there is growing suspicion he may have just left the family.  His wife lived with her son Edward (my wife's fatrher) and family for the last 30 years of her life and it appears that old 'Joseph' was not talked about much.

Thanks for the Belfast Telegraph suggestion.

Regards,

David

Hi David,

In the 1901 census, Joseph, Senior is recorded as having been born in Co. Down. Do you know anything about his, or his wife's background.

Have you any information on "Rose Ann Mullins"?

Regards,

Hi David,

In regard to my recent post, I have found a church record of the marriage of  a Joseph Dugan, address - Hanover Street to Rose Emma Mullins of Stanhope Street in St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church, Belfast on May 6th 1877. Parents: John Duggan and Elizabeth Keogh and William Mullins and Margaret Lindsay. Witnesses: Richard Mcardle and Jane Wicklow.

Married by Rev. J. Hamill. Husband's parents from Newcastle, Co. Down. Source: www.rootsireland.ie  - No Civil record found!

There are a number of children recorded from 1880 to 1896. Thomas 1880 - Annie 1896. Their surnames are: Duggan, Dugan and Dougan.

Their mother is recorded as: Rose Emma and Rose Ann. They are recorded at various addresses in the City. I attach the Civil record for Thomas - No. 260 on list, Frederick James, No. 200 and Annie, No. 43. There is a "Joseph" born in 1884. I need to check this in the Civil records to see if he had died in infancy. Check www.irishgenealogy.ie - Free

Regards,

Hi McCoy.

I have prepared a reply to your last messages, together with some attachments including death records for Joseph (the one born 1884) and Annie.

For some reason though, it won't post and is continually giving an error message.

I shall keep trying but I wanted to let you know so you didn't waste time looking for the death record/s.

Regards,

David

I see the above message went through okay but my larger one still won't send even without the attachments.  I keep on getting an error message.

I will try again later.

For the life of me, I can't understand why my larger meassge won't post properly.  I am wondering if there might be a word limit so I am attempting to send half of it below and I'll try and send the rest in a separate message.

PART 1
Thank you again McCoy.  You keep coming up with the goods!

I was aware that the name of Joseph's (snr) wife, Rose, varied on different records.  I have attached a couple of screenshots of my profile for Rose BEFORE I received your above message.

As a consequence of the info you have provided, I have now:

(1)  Updated the details of her mother and father.   I had initially gone from an unconfirmed baptism record  I have now deleted that baptism record as well.

(2)  I have added daughter Annie. 

(3) I have added the birth of son Joseph, born in 1884.   See below re death. 

PART 2

(4) I have located the death record now for the first Joseph showing he died in 1885, when 9 months old. I have attached a copy of that record. It appears that after the death of the first Joseph, they named their next child Joseph also (born 1886 - my wife's grandfather). I have come across that before. Bit weird, I reckon.

(5) I realised that Annie did not appear in the 1901 census so I had a look for her death record. I found that she died in 1899 at the age of 3 years. I have attached a copy of her death record.

I actually already had the birth records of Thomas and Frederick (just so you know I am not totally hopeless) but I did not know about Annie and Joseph No 1 so thanks heaps for that.

I see that you use "http://www.rootsireland.ie quite a bit. Do you think that is any better than Ancestry.com? I am subscribed to Ancestry.com but maybe I should give "http://www.rootsireland.ie a go for a while.

Lastly, can you offer any other avenues of enquiry to locate the burial record of Joseph Dougan, born 1886? This seems to be the last piece of information we need re him, and the family are keen to identify his burial site if possible. I have the Belfast Telegraph on the list. Just wondering if you have any other suggestions. Anyway, thanks heaps again for all your assistance. You are providing an excellent service to people like me who are just starting out on the family tree adventure.

Regards,

David

ps: if this one sends I think I have worked out the problem. It did not like me putting smiley faces in the message!  If this works, I shall try and send the attachments separately.

Okay, going to try and send the attachments now.

Sorry for all the messages.  It has been driving me batty!

Hi David,

Roots Ireland Records

Rose Emma Mullin baptised in St. Anne's Church of Ireland, Shankill on March 5th 1856. Parents: William Mullin and Margaret Lindsay.

 Address: Belfast

On the 22nd of April 1877 she was baptised in St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church, Belfast as "Rose Ann Teresa Mullins". Parents: William Mullins and Margaret Lindsay. Baptismal Sponsor: Jane Whitlow. Address: 38, Alton Street.

Footnote: Rev J O'Hara - Adult Protestant 21 years old

This explains why she was using the names "Rose Emma and Rose Ann".

In regard to surnames, it is more likely that her family name was "Mullen" rather than Mullins!

Copy of marriage record of William "Mullins" to Margaret Lindsay in 1848 attached. Jane Whitlow (transcribed in Roots as WIcklow) was one of the Witnesses. There are a number of births recorded to this Couple:  William Mullen 1848, Margaret Louisa 1850, Thomas 1852, Edmund Mullins 1854, Rose Emma Mullin 1856, Alfred Ernest 1863. You can see the problem in regard to surnames.

Other than the marriage record of Joseph Duggan to Rose Emma Mullins on May 6th 1877, I have not found any other record in relation to them. The surname for "Elizabeth Keogh" is probably "McKeogh".

There are likely to be many cousins of your wife in Belfast, even at this time?

Regards,

Thanks again.

So, I see that Rose was baptised TWICE?

I am guessing that she was initially baptised as a protestant as a child but was re-baptised as a Roman Catholic when she was 21 years old, in order to marry Joseph Dougan who was a Roman Catholic.  In the second baptism, she changed her name.  Do you think that is the case?

Her surname has variously appeared as Mullins, Mullin, Mullen, McMullen, Mullan etc.  It is very hard to keep up!  The changing of surnames and people routinely being known by middle names in Ireland makes things more difficult, as I am sure you well know.

Building on what you have found for me, I have actually located records of quite a few more children of Joseph and Rose Dougan - see attached screenshot.  I havent been able yet to locate the actual records but have found some transcripts.  I was in the process of looking for Robert but I see you have kindly found the birth record for me.

Children so far are: William, Thomas, Charles, Joseph (1), Joseph (2), Frederick, Robert, Edmund, John and Annie. It seems that at least three died in infancy.

I am hoping that all this new information may assist in locating other descendents who may have some knowledge of the burial site of Joseph (No 2), born 1886.  That is the missing piece of information!

Thank you once again,

David

Hi David,

Roots Ireland transcription, records "Rose Emma Mullin" being baptised in St. Anne's Church of Ireland, Shankill on the 5th of March 1856 by the Rev M  Anderson.  You have her recorded as 1861. You should have this confirmed with the parish register.

In your initial post, you mentioned that Elizabeth was in the process of applying for a Widows Pension. Do you know if in fact she obtained a pension basedon her husband's army record?

Have you investigated if  her husband Joseph did receive an Armty Pension. You should have this investigated in the Army Pensions Section in England. There may be a copy of a death record on file. Without a death record it will be difficult to locate a burial place.

To investigate the pensions record you will be given an option to get somebody on your behalf, or one of their Researchers. You will be quoted a fee. It is best to get a Researcher who is familiar with the Pensions Section.

Best Wishes,

Thanks again.

Yes, I had the year of birth of Rose Mullins listed as 1861 because of the 1901 census which listed her as being 40 years old.  I amended her estimated year of birth to 1856 yesterday after receiving your information.  Thanks for that.

Re his wife Elizabeth.  The document we have appears to be an application to obtain her birth record in order to apply to the Minister of Labour (Pensions Branch) to obtain a widow's pension.  I have attached a copy of that letter so you can see what I am referring to.  Unfortunately, we don't know whether she ever received the birth record or applied for the widow's pension.  You will see the document is dated 17 June 1937 which obviously infers he died before that date.  Unfortunately, I have been unable to confirm any death for that period.  The only likely one I have been able to locate is the Joseph Dougan who died in the Royasl Victoria Hospital on 12 January 1941.  Some points which support this being him, other than the name being correct, are (1) occupation listed as labourer, which is how he described himself prior to enlisting in the army  (2) the given address of 42 Ava Drive is only 2 miles from where his family was actually living on Donegall Gardens (3) his cause of death (pneumonia) is consistent as he is known to have had lung damage from gassing during the war, and was a smoker and (4) the stated age of 56 is 'close' to being correct, he would have been 54.

So, as you can see, this person remains a possibility but I have been unable to confirm either way.  I also have not been able to find where this particular person was buried.

There also seems to be a bit of mystery surrounding his relationship with the family.  He was not spoken of over the years and we believe it is likely he abandoned the family and they then didn't want anything to do with him.  This may be why his wife treated him as 'dead and gone' and, with no other means of support, tried to get a widow's pension.

I have tried to make some enquiries to determine whether Joseph received a war pension.  I tried through PRONI and also sent an email to veterans-uk@mod.gov.uk.  Unfortunately, I did not receive a reply.

Sorry, I did not quite understand your comment, "To investigate the pensions record you will be given an option to get somebody on your behalf, or one of their Researchers. You will be quoted a fee. It is best to get a Researcher who is familiar with the Pensions Section."

We are happy to pay a fee if necessary.  Who exactly should I be contacting?

I really do appreciate your ongoing support with this.

Regards,

David

David,

The comment you raised is in relation to records at the Government Archives in Kew, Richmond, England. Joseph, was not in the service during WW11, so his records may be there. If you query the National Archives, they will inform you. Genealogists are usually available and researching at various Archives.

Attachments

Thanks McCoy for the documents however, on reading the instruction leaflet, it states that we need a death certificate if the person did not die in service.  Obviousloy, we don't have a death certificate as that is what we are trying to determine.  From my reading though, they may still look at it because he would be over 116 years old.  Nevertheless, I don't see anythging about pensions.  Also, I can only find a postal address.  Do you have any email contact addresses where I may be able to make contact to first establish if this is something they can help me with.  I am happy to pay a fee but it would be a waste to send of letters to them if this is not even something they can assist with (ie pensions).

Also, I have previously been in contact with the National Archives re pension records.  This was their reply:  "With regard to his wife applying for a Pension, you may need to contact the Public Records Office Northern Ireland - https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/proni  as after 1922 all records relating to the North of Ireland were held there or try - https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/campaigns/state-pension".

On re-reading this, they may have been referring to state pensions.  I might try them again re war pensions, although I suspect they will just refer me back to the British Army.

The other problem I have is that I not really after any of his actual war records.  I have accumulated quite a bit of information on his army service between 1908 and 1929.  I am more after information from after he left the army but just hoping the army may have been informed of his death, and updated the records.

Anyway, I shall keep trying and hope for the best.

Thanks again.

David,

The only option I see is to make application on Forms 1 and 2 with the prescribed fee of £30.00 (Sterling) for each inquiry.

Include a copy of his re-enlistment to ensure that this is the person you are inquiring about.

Post it to the address on the form by Registered Post. A death record is what you need initially.

Hopefully you will get a reply, but it may not be immediate due to Covid.

Some military buildings were destroyed during the bombing of London in WW11.

Best Wishes,

Roger.  Many thanks for all your assistance.