 Mangan - death record (cropped).jpg){kind=link}
Good morning!
My 4x great-grandparents were Martin O'Brien and Margaret Welsh, originally of Ireland. In the mid-1840s, they immigrated to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in the US with some of their children. I've been working hard to figure out where in Ireland they came from, but it's been difficult. I've recently found some promising baptismal records, but, in the spirit of Irish genealogy, there are some discrepancies that make it difficult to be sure. If anyone can help me arrive at a stronger place of certainty, I'd be much obliged!
Martin O'Brien was born around 1797-1802 in Ireland, and Margaret Welsh was born around 1808-1814 in Ireland. Neither of their US death records or newspaper death notices indicate parent names or places of birth beyond "Ireland." Although I suspect some other members of the Welsh family came to Philadelphia, too, I haven't been able to prove any connection, so, currently, there are no known siblings for either Martin or Margaret.
My 3x great-grandmother, Catharine O'Brien, was the daughter of Martin O'Brien and Margaret Welsh. When she died in 1883, the informant (presumably her husband) listed her place of birth as "Kilkeney" or "Kilbeney" or something that looks very similar (see attachment below). For years, I assumed this was either Co. Kilkenny or Kilbehenny (in Co. Limerick, the county in which Catharine's husband was born), but I haven't been able to find Catharine listed in any (online) records there.
Martin O'Brien and Margaret Welsh had at least six children, four of whom were born in Ireland and two of whom were born in the US. Here is the most accurate birth information and birth order that I could compile from available records:
- Martin O'Brien Jr. Census records place his birth around 1833-1834 in Ireland.
- Catharine O'Brien. Census records place her birth around 1836 in Ireland. Her death record lists "Kilkeney/Kilbeney" as her place of birth.
- Michael O'Brien. Census records place his birth around 1840-1842 in Ireland. His death record lists his date of birth as 15 April.
- Peter O'Brien. Census records place his birth around 1842-1844 in Ireland. His death record lists his date of birth as 24 November.
- John O'Brien. His Philadelphia baptism record lists his date of birth as 4 October 1849.
- James E. O'Brien. His Philadelphia baptism record lists his date of birth as 6 November 1852.
While looking through Irish baptism records, I found some promising leads in a place I hadn't considered: Ballycullane, Co. Wexford, which looks somewhat close to the Kilkenny border. As you'll see, the birth dates and birth order are very close to the O'Briens in my family:
- Catharina O'Brien. Born 24 May 1836, baptized 25 May 1836. Daughter of Martin O'Brien and Margarita Walsh. Sponsor: Catharina Caul.
- Michael Brien. Born 19 April 1840, baptized 19 April 1840. Son of Martinus Brien and Margt Walsh. Sponsor: Margarita Colfer.
- Petrus Bryan. Born 19 Nov 1842, baptized 21 Nov 1842. Son of Martinus Bryan and Margt Walsh. Sponsor: Gulielmus Dublin and [...]th Finn.
I began to wonder if this was my family: the birth order is right, the years of birth are in the appropriate range, and even the months of birth are right (only a few days off!). The parents' surnames are more or less interchangeable (O'Brien/Brien/Bryan and Welsh/Walsh).
However, I also found Ballycullane baptism records for two additional children, the second of whom proposes a significant problem:
- Maria Brien. Born 21 March 1839, baptized 22 March 1839. Daughter of Martinus Brien and Maria Walsh [assuming they meant Margarita]. Sponsor: Joanna Caul.
- Joannes Brien. Born 25 October 1846, baptized 26 October 1846. Son of Martinus Brien and Margarita Walsh. Sponsor: Philippum Walsh and Eleanora White.
It's one thing not to have evidence of Mary in the family (as she could have died prior to the O'Briens' voyage to the US), but it's another thing to have two John O'Briens. Certainly, it's possible that the first John died and his name was reused for the second John; I understand this was fairly common back then. But I want to be a responsible genealogist who does more than just assume.
Does anyone have any thoughts, guidance, or questions? I really appreciate the help! <3
mtraynor
Monday 27th Apr 2020, 12:19PMMessage Board Replies
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Bumping the thread in hopes that someone might be knowledgeable (or adventurous) enough to help. Many thanks in advance! <3
mtraynor
Monday 4th May 2020, 11:21AM -
I don't think there's enough evidence either way from what you have found at this point to either prove or disprove this possible family. The names of the parents are quite common so it’s more than likely that there were a number of couples with these names at that time, in addition Catholic parishes rarely kept death/burial records at the time, so any of the Ballycullane children could have died and there would be no record…I would certainly keep this Ballycullane family on the possibles/under review list
I think the entry on the Death return could be either a ‘b’ or a ‘k’ - it’s difficult to be certain as there are no other lower case b’s or k’s on the same entry to compare to. I suspect it’s a ‘k’, spelling probably decided by whoever created thhis document - the Physician or Undertaker[?]. It might be worth looking for other death records recorded by the same person to see if additional examples might help.
Ballycullane is more usually referred to as Tintern which was a parish union based in Clongeen civil parish, with four ‘chapels’ in the area including one at Ballycullane townland. The area is around Tintern Abbey to the north-east of the Hook peninsula, and would not be considered as close to County Kilkenny.
Co. Limerick is quite some distance to the west from this part in Co. Wexford. In addition to the common names of the parents it’s also worth bearing in mind that some parishes do not have records back to the dates you need, so adding to the difficulty in proving or disproving a connection..
I think the next line of research should be in US records - have you looked into deaths, marriages, obituaries, headstones etc for the other children born in Ireland to see if any of these provide useful details on where they were born ?
It might also be worth double checking for possible ship records for the family - the date could confirm this Ballycullane/Tintern family, or rule them out.p.s. there's no point 'bumping' posts - they are displayed under the relevent counties and parishes, and by the date they were posted
Shane Wilson, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘
Monday 4th May 2020, 01:04PM -
Thank you so much for the reply! (And sorry for the "bump" error - I'm very new here and still learning the ropes. I'll keep that in mind going forward.)
Although it's always disappointing to hear I've got a lot more work ahead of me, I'm committed to being thorough and accurate with my research!
Working with such common names has been a slow and difficult process. Adding to the complication is that Catharine O'Brien's husband, James Mangan, was the son of John Mangan and Johanna O'Brien. Whether Johanna just happened to be a random O'Brien or she was a related to Martin O'Brien, I don't know for sure. I found a promising baptismal record for James Mangan in Co. Limerick, but, as seems to be the case with my Irish relatives, there are too many questions remaining to be absolutely certain. As you noted, Limerick and Kilkenny are pretty far from one another, so there's a lot of ground to cover.
Unfortunately, the "Kilkenny/Kilbenny" on Catharine's death record is the best info I've got from US records. Everything else for this family simply says "Ireland." For Martin and Margaret as well as their children (and their children's children), I have US census records, death records, baptism records, sacramental marriage records, burial records, newspaper death notices, city directories, land records, military pension records—all of it says "Ireland." Only Catharine's record (so far, at least) features a more precise location. I've been unable to locate definitive ship records for the family, but it's admittedly been a while since I've searched specifically for those, so I'll try again. The first record I have of my O'Briens in the US is 1849.
There are some tantalizing clues, as some of the O'Brien children's baptism/marriage records feature Welsh and O'Brien names as sponsors/witnesses, but I haven't yet been able to connect those other families in a meaningful way to Martin or Margaret. The deeper I get into those families' genealogy, the farther away I seem to get from Martin and Margaret, but perhaps I just need to press forward.
There's also this especially tantalizing clue. In Michael O'Brien's Civil War pension file, it mentions the following about his younger brother, James O'Brien: "I found soldier's only [surviving] brother, James O'Brien. ... He informed me that he was born around 1854, went to Chicago, Ill., when a small boy, lived there with relatives now dead until he was a young man, when he went to Detroit, Mich., and lived there until a few years ago. He did not know as much about his brother, Michael O'Brien, as I knew myself. He had only seen him once in about 50 years. ... He knew no more about his brother, Michael O'Brien, than an entire stranger." Margaret (Welsh) O'Brien died in 1862 and Martin O'Brien died in 1872. James appears regularly in Pennsylvania census records through 1870, then married a woman from Detroit around 1877 (presumably in Michigan - haven't located that record yet). I have no idea which "relatives" were in Chicago, or when James would have lived with them, since he appears in Pennsylvania records with his family until 1870 (when he was 18). And trying to search for "O'Brien" or "Welsh" in a city like Chicago is a nightmare of names.
Again, I truly appreciate the reply! Hopefully I'll have a promising update from my research.
mtraynor
Wednesday 6th May 2020, 04:45AM