McMonagle - Need local knowledge of Northern Donegal

I understand that Letterkenny is in the parish of Conwal in the Barony of Kilmacrenan.  I don't fully understand how barony's are used.  Is it feasible that McMonigle was from Letterkenny and because it was in the Barony of Kilmacrenan someone would have said in his obituary that he was from Kilmacrenan? 

Hi Dave K:

I'm going to forward this on to 2 people with Donegal connections who may be able to assist.  They will reply to this message. 

Kind regards,

Jane

Thanks Jane!

Hi Dave Kane, 

If I am reading this correct,  a John McManigal (McMonagle/McGonigle) family with strong links to north Donegal who emigrated to USA back in 1854 named their Apartment Block in Williamsport Pennsylvania “Glenvar” and then later on for his grandson to name a neighborhood in Florida “Glenvar” also, well I have to say that is quite an interesting story. 

I did a bit of searching tonight and I came across a similar message that would have beenadded to the Irelandxo message board recently https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/message-board/gallagher-and-mcmonigal , and I came across your own Kane family tree up on ancestry with various photos and stories. 

By looking at all the information that your family would have given previously and doing a bit of research myself, I would actually be leaning more towards John McManiagal coming from either Kilmacrenan or Letterkenny, and his wife Mary Gallagher having come from Glenvar instead, either the townland of Carrowreagh or Bunnaton. 

I am pretty sure that McManigal or any different variations of the name would not be a Glenvar name, and by looking through various records from the 1830’s, 1850’s, and early 1900s there is no family name like that in permanent residence in or around Glenvar. I have no doubt that John McManigal would be from County Donegal but it simply would be too far back before record taking to speculate exactly where?  

There is however a strong possibility that Mary Gallagher and her sister Catherine (married Kane) would have come from Glenvar, as there is Gallagher families residing there in the townlands of Carrowreagh or Bunnaton, just like what was said in the other message (in the link above) 

-- We found some research done by an ancestor and have a little more information.  Apparently Glenvar is the name of a valley in northern donegal  in it are townlands including Carrowreagh where my McMonigles were said to come from and Bunnaton/Bunnington/Bunnintin where my Gallagher’s are said to have come from. Our ancestor learned some of this from a man named Joseph Doherty who was born and raised in Glenvar and his grandmother apparently knew my Gallagher and McMonigle ancestors. 

I hope you don’t mind but I am attaching below the photo of the Glenvar residence in the US and the photo of when your ancestor visited Glenvar back in the 1980’s. 

I am sure you possibly would have looked this up at this stage, but here is the location of Glenvar on googlemaps. 

Glenvar, Donegal - Google map location 

There would be no reason not to believe Joe Doherty that shared the information regarding families living in Carrowreagh or Bunnaton.  There were only two Gallagher households living in Carrowreagh back in the 1850’s and 1900’s.  

 Carrowreagh search in www.askaboutireland.ie  (page attached below) 

If the link fails to open properly visit Griffith's Places  and add Carrowreagh > County Donegal > Parish of Clondavaddog. 

The location back in 1858 for James Gallagher family (Plot 15A) and John Gallagher (16A) in current day google maps is  CLICK HERE . Just up the road from there is the land of John Gallagher (Plot 16B) CLICK HERE. 

I do not happen to know who lives in these locations nowadays but I am sure I could maybe find out. 

Regards Seamus Callaghan (Kerrykeel) 

Seamus- thank you so much!  I'm so appreciative of your research and local knowledge. This is very helpful.  I've never been to Ireland and am learning as much as I can as I do family history research, but your local knowledge is extremely helpful to me.  On my bucket list is to get to Ireland one day and visit the lands where my 2nd great grandparents were from. Thank you for all the maps. I will review those more closely later.  Thank you for letting me know you are from Kerrykeel. It's fun to see how close that is to Glenvar.

Here's a link to wikipedia talking about Glenvar Heights, a neighborhood in Miami Florida.  Within that neighborhood, there is also a small lake named Glenvar.  This was named by John McManigal's (spelling in America) grandson who moved to Florida from Pennsylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenvar_Heights,_Florida

Seamus- would you think it is a pretty safe assumption that either Mary or John had to have been from Glenvar?  With naming buildings Glenvar, I can't think of any other possible explanation. If Mary is the one from Glenvar then perhaps John named his building after his wife's homeland in a romantic gesture.   

How is the name Glenvar used?  Do I understand correctly that it is both a townland but also the name of the valley? So, would someone from Bunnaton or Carrowreach say they were from Glenvar? 

The last few days, I have been thinking the same as you- that Mary Gallagher may have been from Glenvar- either Bunnaton or Carrowreagh.  I'm going by memory, but I think I found a John Gallagher in Bunnaton in the 1901 or 1910 census but there are no Gallaghers in the Griffiths valuation.   And I have been thinking that John McMonigle probably came from Kilmacrenan or Letterkenny.

Is it possible that John McMonigle came from both Letterkenny (as per his niece) and from Kilmacrenan (as per his obituary)?  Meaning either he really came from Letterkenny but the Barony is Kilmacrenan-- or are Barony's not really referenced that way?  Or perhaps he is really from Kilmacrenan but at times he said he was from the closest big city to his American niece because she had never been to Ireland and maybe only knew of the bigger city? 

Last question for now-  any thoughts on where John and Mary may have met?  I would have expected them to have come from the same townland since in the mid 1850's they would have traveled by foot. I assume they were very poor.  Would someone from Glenvar even have had the opportunity to meet someone from Kilmacrenan or Letterkenny? Or is it more likely that they would have met on the boat or in Pennsylvania?   (I realize we can't know the answer to where they really met, but just wondering what is more likely since Glenvar and Letterkenny are about 20 miles apart. 

Hi Dave 

If you heard someone talking nowadays and they said they came from Glenvar, they would simply mean the general area of land or valley of Glenvar and not one of the townlands within. These townlands would rarely be mentioned unless you would be living nearby and have local knowledge. 

As for the Parish of Clondavaddog, where these townlands of Glenvar reside, you would very rarely hear it mention in a conversation also, unless you were getting married or a child Baptised in the Parish. Clondavaddog would have been used more readily as a title location in the early 1900s and 1800s and you will find it comes up very frequent especially if you were doing historical researching online, as all the old documents refer to Clondavaddog first and foremost, when looking at documents from back then. 

The funny thing is though, although the name Glenvar is used all the time, whether it is nowadays, or going back years ago, you will not see it anywhere on any of the old research documents (1800s to early 1900s) as you will see in the links below, you may only see the townlands of the Parish of Clondavaddog (which is the land area of Fanad &Glenvar).  

These would be the various Townlands found in Glenvar. 

Tirlaydan Townland (Glenevar) 

Carrowreagh Townland (Glenvar) 

Lurganbrack Townland (Glenvar) 

Tirevlin Townland (Glenvar) 

Bunnaton Townland (Glenvar) 

Clicking on any of these pages will show you a location map and helpful links at the bottom to view records back in the 1858 Griffith Valuations and 1901 and 1911 Census. You will see Gallagher families but McMonagles

Parish family names in the Parish of Conwal (Letterkenny) in 1850's 

Parish family names in Clondavaddog back in 1858 (Note no McMonagles or similiar) 

I suspect John McMonagle may perhaps have come from from the Parish of Conwal which is Letterkenny Town and Letterkenny west in the Barony of Kilmacrenen. P.s Barony is never referenced nowadays but remember they emigrated back in early 1800s, Baronies were very important location back then. 

https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/what-parish 

A Barony and Parishes would be explained better in this link above. 

The unfortunate news however is that McMonagle is a very popular name and as you see yourself it is like finding a needle in a haystack, but chances are this is where they came from if recorded on his obituary etc..

I will reply properly on the rest of the query as soon as I can get a chance (up the walls busy). ;-)

Seamus

____________________________________________

Thank you for the wikipedia link, It helped me alot in finding the location of Glenvar Heights in Florida and the Glenvar in Pensylvannia. Very interesting. Seamus 

Glenvar Heights, Florida - Google Maps 

The McManigal residence called Glenvar in Williamsport, Pennsylvania - Google Maps Streetview 

Walnut St+ Grace St, Williamsport, PA 

I've just joined this conversation (thanks Seamus for the link).
I am one of the 2 Gallagher families in Carrowreagh... There's still only 2...
My dad was James Gallagher.
I know of Mary's in my ancestry but nit sure of a Catherine.
I will post the link to the Friends of Glenvar Facebook page and maybe someone there will be able to put more light on the McMonagle connection, although I've never heard if the name being in Glenvar.
As for the use of the name - I would only say Carrowreagh to someone who knew Glenvar, otherwise I'd just say I was from Glenvar.
A few years ago I tried to find the Glenvar in Florida, I got to the general area but unfortunately I didn't have much time as I was catching a flight back home.

Thank you again Seamus! You are very kind to help us!

Hello Gallagher from Glenvar! (Sorry the post does not show your name). I’m excited to correspond with you and see if we are related.
Dave Kane. My second great grandparents were Michael Kane and Catherine Gallagher. Michael was from county Tipperary and it appears Catherine and her sister Mary were from Glenvar.
How did you know to look for Glenvar in Florida? Did you just find it online or is there a family story about it being named by one of your ancestors?

Just found your name on friends of Ireland. Hello Sarah Gallagher!

Oops. Meant to say on friends of Glenvar on Facebook.  

hi Dave

I was just googling Glenvar whilst I was in the States - there is also a Glenvar in Roanoke County, Virginia which I was googling - didn't get to visit this.  

In Virginia the high school is called Glenvar High School.

There is a Glenvar Farm in Australia but they don't have a connection with Donegal.

Sarah

Very interesting Sarah. How fun if it turns out your ancestors are the ones who named Glenvar in Florida.  Do you have any family history going back a ways?  We’ve never been able to identify any other Gallagher’s in the family who immigrated other than the sisters Cathy and Mary. There were probably brothers who stayed in Glenvar.  

There was a McMonagle family living in Carrowreagh, next door to Joe Doherty's family home. My friend didn't have much other information other than that they were originally from Townawilly near Donegal Town

Thank you for your help Seamus and Sarah. 

Sarah- do you know the name of your paternal grandfather or any other Gallaghers beyond your father James?  There is a family in the 1911 census named James and wife Sarah. 

Also Seamus and Sarah- may I bounce a theory off you?

My cousin said there were two more names that the family often referenced.  Ward and McCloskey. He said he thought maybe McCloskey was John McManigle's mothers maiden name.  

So, I think John McMonigle was from Letterkenny.  I think Mary Gallagher was from Glenvar- probably Carrowreagh.  I think John McMonigle's mother was a McCloskey from Glenvar and his parents got married in Glenvar- since they would have married in the bride's church.  I think the married couple then frequently visited the McCloskey family in Glenvar and that is how their son John McMonigle met his future wife, Mary Gallagher. 

In the 1858 Griffiths valuation for Carrowreagh, there is a James Gallagher and a John Gallagher living on plots of land next to each other.  Just a couple plots of land away, there is a Conrad McCluskey.

In the 1901 census for Carrowreagh, there are 3 Gallagher families. Only James age 74 is old enough to have been listed in the 1858 Griffiths valuation.  So, James would have been born around 1827 and would have been about 40 at the time of the Griffiths.  There is a Mary, head of household age 55, so she would have been about 12 at the time of the Griffiths.  She could really be older and the widow of John or John could have moved.

Also in 1901 3 listings down from the Gallaghers is an Anthony McCloskey age 55 with wife and 4 kids.  He would have been about 12 at the Griffiths, so his father is likely Conrad McCluskey.

In the 1911 census for Carrowreagh – James Gallagher 88, Mary wife 71.  4 adult kids.  Then separate house James Gallagher age 39 and spouse Sarah age 20.  They don’t have kids yet in 1911.  

In the 1911 census for Carrowreagh for McCloskeys- Anthony McCloskey is 72 as is wife Mary.  Married son John and wife and son John age 6 are there. Plus 2 adult single kids.

So, Sarah- I’m thinking if the James and Sarah Gallagher mentioned in the 1911 census are your ancestors perhaps they would be your great grandparents?  Or maybe great great grandparents?

Thanks again, 

Dave Kane

hi Dave

JAmes and Sarah Gallagher werre my grandfather and grandmother

I've not lloked at |Griffith's in great details until now....James and JOhn Gallagher were brothers.  It looks like James then bought the land belonging to James Cullen and moved over.

Its facinating to see the history in action!!

The 3 Gallagher's in the 1901 census 

1. Bridget Gallagher and Loghlin Diver - I don't know who this might be...

2. James and Mary - they are cousins of mine

3. Mary with the Marleys and Deeneys - this is my direct ancestor - Mary would've been my greatgrandmother.  Her husband was John.  I think her maiden name was Doherty.

Mary Gallagher was her daughter, she was a dressmaker who lived in America for sometime, and returned later to Carrowreagh. My grandfather died in 1918 (The great Flu) and left behind 6 children, Mary came back to help her sister-in-law Sarah.  One of the 6 children was my father James.  He had a twin brother who dies aged 7.

 "James Gallagher age 39 and spouse Sarah age 20.  They don’t have kids yet in 1911. " - they were my grandparents - Sarah was originally Sweeney from Tyrladen .

I hope some of this makes sense.....  

I'll keep digging this end - I find it all so fascinating - however I wished I had asked more questions and listened to the older folks when they were talking about times gone by !

Sarah

Thank you Sarah!  Very interesting!

Hi Seamus and Sarah, 

I am Dave Kane's sister, Cathy (Kane) Wallace. Thank you so much for all your help!! We have been searching on this family line for decades and the two of you have provided us with some great information that may help us to finally find our Irish ancestors on this branch of our family tree. 

Sarah, you mention that your grandparents were James and Sarah (Sweeney) Gallagher. I was so excited to see the name Sweeney in connection with the Gallaghers. The witnesses for the marriage of our great-great-uncle and aunt, John McManigal and Mary Gallagher, in Philadelphia in 1858 were James Sweeney and Rose McFadden. We have read that it was traditional in Ireland for the marriage witnesses to be cousins of the bride and groom. I'm not sure how feasible that would have been after immigrating to America but maybe some of their extended family came across the ocean too. And McFadden is a name that appears in this record Parish family names in the Parish of Conwal (Letterkenny) in 1850's that you shared with us, Seamus. So perhaps their marriage witnesses were family members - Sweeney from the Gallagher side of the family and McFadden from the McManigal side of the family.

I also have a paper with a family tree that one of our great-aunts brought to a family reunion in 1987 in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. She listed the first wife of Michael Kane as Catherine "Sweeney" but then crossed off the surname "Sweeney" and wrote Catherine "Gallagher" instead. Then she wrote Mary "Sweeney???" with several question marks for his second wife (who we now know was actually Mary Horan). I have often thought that she must have been remembering someone mentioning the name Sweeney in connection with the Gallagher family. 

Seamus and Sarah, perhaps you can tell us about the traditions for witnesses and naming conventions in Ireland. We have read that the witnesses for a wedding were usually cousins of the bride and groom and the sponsors for baptisms (christenings) were usually siblings or siblings-in-law of the parents of the baby. Were these customary traditions in County Donegal? 

We have also read that the following naming patterns were used. Would you find this to hold true in County Donegal? 

A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:

• First son usually named for the father's father
• Second son usually named for the mother's father
• Third son usually named for the father
• Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother
• Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother
• First daughter usually named for the mother's mother
• Second daughter usually named for the father's mother
• Third daughter usually named for the mother 
• Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister
• Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister. 

Thank you again for all of your help!

Cathy