Toole Family

Ruth:

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out!

The marriage actually occurred in 1880. The civil record is below which shows the names of the fathers of the bride and groom. James Toole was the father of Sarah. Jane Toole was likely her sister.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1880/11042/8038734.pdf

I was unable to locate the baptismal record for Sarah likely because the Kiltinan Church of Ireland records are not available on the subscription site Roots Ireland.

Roger McDonnell

As far as I can see the place of birth for Sarah on the 1911 England census (34 Elim Terrace Plymouth) is "Wicklow, Kiltiman" - the only civil/Church of Ireland parish name in Wicklow that appears similar might be 'Kiltegan'. There is a townland named 'Kiltimon' in Co. Wicklow - it's just south of the town of Newcastle and divided between the civil and Church of Ireland parishes of 'Killiskey' and 'Newcastle Upper'. There may be one other possibility - the nearby parish of 'Kiltiernan' in South County Dublin ?

I'd say it's more likely that the marriage witness Jane Toole is Sarah's sister... the other witness is a James Stanley. Have you found Sarah and Mark on the 1901 census in Ireland or England ?

p.s. Thom's 1880 directory lists 16 Kenilworth Road, Rathgar (Sarah residence) as Chas. P Archer, barrister - maybe Sarah was in service as a maid or similar ?

Thank you so very much for such prompt replies. Correct - and my mistake. The marriage was indeed in 1880. My daughter and I flew to Dublin a few years ago now to see if we could find the church but it seems it was knocked down and now has a YMCA type building on it.

I understand the address of 16 Kenilworth Road Rathgar Dublin, was where Sarah was working as a domestic servant when she met my great grandfather, Mark Snell, so that ties in.

My father (Sarah's grandson Bernard Snell 1922-2008) was born at 34 Elim Terrace Plymouth. The whole family lived there over a couple of generations; it must have been very cramped as its a small terraced house but I'm told they were very, very happy days. 

Sarah never spoke much at all about her family. I even had a chat with my grandmother (her daughter in law, Rosetta Snell 1892-1984) back in the 1970s who said nobody really knew very much about her. One of the cousins, Gladys, spoke to me when she was in her eighties, back in 1993 (I still have the notes from the phone call). She remembered Sarah very well and described her as very intelligent but frustrated by the fact she struggled to read and write. Both Gladys and my grandmother said she only ever told people she came from Co. Wicklow and had gone to Dublin for work. No other information was ever forthcoming. In her dying days she was apparently feverish and spoke of wanting to return to Ireland, the green fields, horses, meadows etc. Unfortunately by then it was too late to do anything and World War Two was running..

One element of interest to the family was that a few months after she married Mark Snell, he was posted to India for seven years. When he returned after those seven years they passed each other several times on Plymouth Railway Station platform and didn't recognize each other. The seven children they went on to have were born between 1889 and 1901. 

However, I was told  in the 1993 phone call that after Mark had gone to India she found herself expecting a baby and went back to Ireland to have a boy, we believe called Richard, as I think she felt isolated without her own family about her. She left the boy with her parents and came back to Plymouth to try and keep the 'home fires burning' so to speak before Mark returned after seven years in India. Just before Mark returned she went over to Ireland to bring Richard back but he wouldn't leave his grandparents. Finally she came back and we believe, never saw the boy again. When Mark was back and settled with a job in the Dockyard, he was also keen for the boy to come over but he remained with Sarah's family and nobody ever knew any more. I believe letters were exchanged etc but nobody ever saw the boy again.

In a way, it wasn't the only son she was sadly parted from as Harry (born 1891) was killed in the First World War (Battle of Rosieres, The Somme) in March 1918. 

So, my interest is layered in the fact there could well be descendants of Richard? in Ireland but I would never know who they were.

Thank you for reading this and taking the time to reply. I imagine that Kiltimon (in accordance with the census return of 1911) would be the right town in Co. Wicklow (south of Newcastle).

Best Wishes

Ruth

The marriage of Mark and Sarah took place in the Church of the Holy Trinity Rathmines in the Parish of St. Peter (see the top of the marriage entry...), and although the parish church for St. Peter at Aungier Street no longer exists the church they married in, which is on Church Road in Rathmines does, it's still active as a church... I was in the area this morning just after I read your reply so took a couple of photos - see attached below...

The Church was built in 1826/1827 and consecrated in 1828, there were alterations in the 1850s and was enlarged over the years but should look much the same as it did in 1880...

Do you know what denomination the children of Sarah and Mark were baptised in ?
I think the marriage may have been mixed, if Mark was Church of England and Sarah was Catholic then a marriage in a Catholic Church would not be allowed. Anyone living in a Church of Ireland parish would be entitled to marry there..

UPDATE : just to add - I believe I've located a very probable match to your Toole family along with Sarah and Jane's baptisms, this family lived in the townland adjacent to Kiltimon in Co. Wicklow...will put the details together and reply later...

I already spent some time typing this up as I mentioned in the previous reply - so I'll post anyway...

Starting with the estimated year of birth of c1863 for Sarah based on her reported age on the 1911 English census I checked for possible baptisms for her in Co. Wicklow 10 years either side of 1863 (to allow for inaccurate age reporting..) - about 8 matches showed up, but of these just three had father’s name James.

One was in Arklow town in 1873, so seems too late and not close to Kiltimon, another was in Rathdrum town in 1855 - so seems too early, and again not close to Kiltimon, the third however is much more promising…

Sarah Toole baptised in Kilquade Catholic parish on the 31st January 1860 to parents James Toole and Margaret Neill. No residence is recorded, the sponsors were Michael Roache and Margaret Walshe.  The register entry is available on the National Library of Ireland website - see towards the end of the right hand page

A check of the area covered by this Catholic parish shows that it was one of two which covered Kiltimon townland, the second Catholic parish being Wicklow (town). The split in RC parishes was probable due to the townland being divided between two civil parishes.

A further search for the possible sister Jane (the marriage witness) shows a Jane Toole baptised in the same parish on the 10th November 1862 to the same parents.  Further searches of baptism and civil births found several siblings Michael 1868, Ellen/Ellena 1871, James 1873, James 1874*, Patrick 1877, Michael 1880* and Anna 1883.

Several of the later baptisms include a family residence - Timore/Tighmore etc, and the civil records are a little more detailed and include an occupation for James - labourer, and also a residence for the family , e.g. James 1873  as Timore. The official placename is Timmore (Tuain Mhór in Irish), this townland is adjacent to Kiltimon - see the map on the entry for Timmore on the placename database, see Kiltimon immediately south of Timmore.  Since the father James was a labourer he could have moved around for work, or possibly the family lived right on the boarder of the two townlands.

A search for Timmore/Timore/Tighmore on the 1901 census shows a likely match (mistranscribed as Timnore) for your Toole family still at the same location  - mother Margaret , children James and Patrick - both Agricultural Labourers, also in the household are grandsons of Margaret - Mark Toole age 20 & James Toole age 9. Margaret and James jnr. Are still at Timmore in 1911, along with a grandson Mark age 27, with the surname shown as Snell with place of birth Co. Wicklow.

A search for the birth of this Mark Snell shows that he was born in Rathdrum Workhouse on the 26th February 1881 to parents Mark Snell and Sarah Tool, residence for family is show as Timore father's opccupation solider… so further proving this is the correct Toole family…

* the elder children named James and Michael likely died young and the names were reused...
 

This is all amazing and I don't know how to thank you. There is so much work here - you have spent a long time on this and I'm indebted.

I re-logged into the Find My Past account (something I haven't used for a while). Like you, my immediate reaction was to try and track whether Mark Snell had married (that would give some sort of corroboration as to names/ages/locations etc but found nothing. I checked the death record - nothing and began to wonder if he'd emigrated. I felt then as if I was losing the thread a bit as that could have led me anywhere.

Its all so illuminating as it opens a wide door into a world we never knew about but was hinted at many years ago. I will speak to my uncle (the oldest living member of the Snell family) who ironically - lives in Northern Ireland (he married an Irish lady on his second marriage). My uncle is now nearly 87 years old and hasn't been in good health for a while so this will light a spark of interest - I know! We have lengthy phone conversations on all matter of subjects when we speak and I know this will keep us talking. 

Thank you so much for time with the photos too. I'm sure my daughter and I passed this church on our visit to Dublin but didn't think it was the right one. We were told it had been demolished so evidently we should have looked a bit closer.

This does all condense the power of family and back in those days in particualr, the fragility of life, with few medical services, stigmas behind certain cultural ways of living, poverty of course with big families and a low income (if any income at all), scratches the surface of just some of the struggles they went through.

Once again - thank you. I will need to re-read all of this again a few more times. I feel a printed copy coming on.

Ruth

Hello Ruth,

I came across your post while searching for information on a Toole family who lived in Timmore. The family I am researching were also called Toole but they lived in house no.1 in the1901 and  1911 census, I don't know if there was any connection between the  Toole families living in that townland and I am not related to the Toole family I am researching. But after reading your post I became a bit curious about Mark Snell who grew up with the Toole family in Timmore Kiltimon. 

I noted you could not find any further record for Mark Snell but as Mark is recorded on the 1911 census as Toole and it was not uncommon in those days if a relative with a different surname grew up with a related family  they were often just called the surname of the family they lived with, even though there would have been no formal adoption. So on the off chance I tried a search for a marriage record for a Mark Toole. Mark was quite an unusual name in Ireland at that time and a search for a marriage of Mark Toole found only 3 in all Ireland, 2 in the west of Ireland and 1 in Wicklow in 1920.  Irish Genealogy Who is Mark Toole of Kiltimon. On the marriage record the father's name is given as Mark 'Toole ' but I wonder if perhaps if the priest asked Mark for his father's name and he said Mark the priest would have assumed it was Toole ?

Unfortunately at the moment the www.irishgenealogy.ie site only has online birth records up to 1919 so it does not show if Mark and Bridget had any children. I did find a death record for a 17 (?) day old baby named James Toole of Kiltimon , the death was registered by his mother Bridget, but as there were some other Toole families in Kiltimon this baby may not be the son of Mark and Bridget. 4407973.pdf  (irishgenealogy.ie) if this is their baby it would have been born just a few days after their marriage?, I did note for some reason the marriage appears to have been registered the year after it took place.?

You mentioned in your post that at that time you had a findmypast account, if you still do you could check the newspaper section for entries in Wicklow for Mark Toole. I found a few for Mark Toole Kiltimmon in early 1900s and there was one for Mark Toole in the Downs in the 1930s, the Downs was another townland in Co. Wicklow, not that far from Kiltimon, so perhaps they moved there ? Downs Townland, Co. Wicklow (townlands.ie)

Margaret 

Ruth,

I have just been taking a further look for the family of Mark and Bridget Toole and came across an inscription for a headstone in Kilquade graveyard, this would appear to be the final resting place for Mark and his wife and the address would appear to tie in with the newspaper articles from the 1930s that indicate they moved to The Downs area of Co. Wicklow as the Willow Grove houses are on the old Downs Road. 

www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/wicklow/photos/tombstones/1headstones/kilquade-new.htm (igp-web.com)

Margaret 

Dear Margaret,

Firstly my apologies for missing your first posting of November 2019. For some reason I didn't see it but when the second message of 4 January (yesterday) popped up on my phone, I was able to catch up.  I would agree Mark adopted the name of Toole over Snell as it would have made a lot of sense. I was told by one of Sarah Snell's (Toole) grandaughters in 1993 on the phone (and Gladys was in her eighties then) that because Mark Snell senior was serving in the Army in India for seven years, when they went to pick up the boy and bring him back to England, he wouldn't leave his grandmother, Margaret Toole (nee Neill). I suppose he saw her as a mother and the other children as his siblings. Margaret seemed to be on her own a lot but I think her husband James Toole was a peripetetic farm labourer who was, shall I say ' unreliable' .....if my research into court records are picking up the same man. I am not one hundred per cent sure its the same man but if it is, she may have been better off without him under her feet. This could have led to the fact young Mark may have been with Bridget some years before marrying her as his relationship to Margaret was a close bond and one of strong loyalty. I recall seeing the death registration for Margaret and Bridget was the one who was the signatory. If I recall, she calls herself Bridget Toole but I think at that time was still Bridget Hyland? I was confused over the dates of the marriage, as you point out.

You are also spot on with the first name Mark not being very common back then. Although it was very popular in the 1960s/1970s, I have rarely come across it in Victorian times. Mark Snell senior was born in Cornwall and the name Mark is more traditional there following Mark of Cornwall (Arthurian legend), although to be honest - not as popular as many of the more traditional/biblical names. Hence it does stand out and narrows down the possibilities. 

I am impressed with the details/photos of the headstones. Thank you for highlighting those. Its opened up a whole lot more doors of information and more questions. So it seems there was a son who died as a baby and a daughter who must have married and become a McCarthy? Again, when I searched the death records for Margaret Toole, I found she was buried in Kilquade and that is where Sarah, my great grandmother was baptised. Again, a church with strong family connections.

My father (1922-2008) remembered his grandmother Sarah Snell (Toole) very well indeed. She never spoke about her family and it was only through his cousin Gladys - who admited she was very nosey listening at keyholes when young - that I learnt there was a son who was only ever referred to in hushed tones. Margaret (who was literate) regularly wrote to her daughter Sarah (who was iliterate) and the letters were read out by other family members, who then wrote back to Margaret on behalf of Sarah. I understand money was often sent as Mark (senior) and Sarah wanted him to feel supported from a distance. After returning from India and leaving the Army, Mark (senior) was employed as a Rivetter in Devonport Dockyard and shows up on early trade union membership circa 1911.

I will look more closely into the Find My Past records you highlight regarding Mark Toole. Thank again for the valuable leads and sorry again I didn't respond sooner.

Best Wishes

Ruth

Hello Ruth,

Actually I only posted those 2 posts this week, on the 3rd and 4th, but for some reason the first one appears as if it was posted in November 2019, don't know why?.

I can see why it would easily happen that Mark would have remained living with his grandparents, if the first 7 years of his life was spent there and he probably did think it was his direct family , I note from the census that his uncle James is only a few years older than him so could easily have been a brother. For him to move to a different country to live with people he did not know would have been very traumatic and I imagine it was a hardbreaking decision for his parents to agree it was best for him to remain there. But it is good to know there was further communication between the 2 families.

I see from the 1911 census that Margaret has recorded that she gave birth to 10 children but only 3 were living at that time, presumably they were Sarah, Patrick and James. It sounds like she had a very hard life, as many did at that time. 

I have had another look at the records and I think the Bridget that registered Margaret's death and that had the baby  in 1920 that died may not be Mark's wife but rather Patrick's wife. I have found a marriage record for Patrick 5630628.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie), he was married in the parish of Avoca, perhaps because his wife was from that parish. Mark was his witness. 

Between 1910 and 1918 they had the following children 

Irish Genealogy

Yes the family appear to have had a long association with the parish of Kilquade, I know the church and old graveyard there, it is very beautiful and peaceful location. 

I note the dates on Mark and Bridget's headstone indicate that Bridget was born in 1893, and her daughter would have been born in 1942, if these dates are correct Bridget would have been aged 48 or 49 at the time?, also if her last child was born in 1942 it would seem likely there would have been scope for quite a few other children born to the couple between 1920 and 1942.?

The grave looks well tended and indicates there may still be some of Mark and Bridget's descentants  living in the general area. It is rather unusual that the full address is given on the headstone but if you were trying to track down some descendants of Mark Toole it is likely someone living in the area (which is a rural country area) might be able to help you. 

I wonder if the full details of Mark's story were passed on to his descentants, if not it might be a bit of a surprise for them to realise they are perhaps offically  Snell's ant not Tooles.

Best wishes

Margaret 

Hi Margaret,

Thanks again and the mysteries of IT in setting calendars and clocks :)

I logged into Find My Past and went through the newspaper entries. Pretty amusing! It seems young Mark Toole participated well in many aspects of local traditions including finding beer on Sunday's. Interesting to see in one article he was accompanied by a James Neill. That must have been a cousin/uncle from his grandmother's side as I was helpfully advised Margaret Toole was Margaret Neill before marriage.

We thought the same here - the grave of Mark Toole and his wife and daughter is well tended. The flowers look fresh and not a weed in sight. I don't know when the photo was taken but I would say not that old.

I think its fair to say there is a high likelihood of survivng family. 

I did notice in Find My Past that someone has a 'shared tree' in connection with Jane Toole, Sarah Toole's sister. However, irritatingly I am unable to make a llink to that person. It could be my seettings which I will look at. 

There seemed to be a bit of a popular phase in the early 20th century for addresses on gravestones - at least when I went to Ford Park Cemetary in Plymouth to find the headstones for my paternal grandmother's side (George James & Rosetta James, parents of Rosetta Snell nee James - daughter in law of Sarah Snell nee Toole), I noticed it was fashionable then for the first line of the address to be added. This can be very useful. It can give that sense of genius loci should visiting the property be possible.

I do have one idea for searching for descendants more which I will explore. Its how people feel about being approached. Some find family history fascinating and others feel its all in the past. This has been a very interesting journey as I've already found descendants of one of Mark Toole's (Snell) other younger brothers who was killed in Flanders. Although it was known he married before returning to the Western Front, nobody knew he'd had a son ......who in turn had a daughter ..... who was told nothing about her grandfather's family. She's been pleased to hear some details.

I will keep you posted ;)

Thanks again.

Ruth