Seeking Belfast Parish for Campbell/Donahue

Hi

To see what civil parishes there are for Belfast City:

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseact…

The site also has other useful information if you use the 'BROWSE' option and look for County Antrim.

If you haven't already you could try checking the land records called the Tithe Applotment Books (1823-38) http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp

or the later Griffith's Valuation (1848-64) http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/

or the Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS) https://familysearch.org/ for more information on the family or their relatives.

 Failte Romhat has lots of other useful links you could try looking at ). www.failteromhat.com

Remember to post as much information as you can regarding the people you are researching. The more information you post, the more likely it is that one of our volunteers will be able to advise or assist you. Also include information concerning which sources you may have already used so others may further your search.

Please make sure you link anyone else in your family who is interested in their Irish heritage to our site - and indeed anyone else you know of Irish heritage.

Kind regards,                    

Genealogy Support

Ireland Reaching Out

Thanks so much for the ideas and links. I tried a few and have had some success with Griffith's Valuation, but am not familiar with the resource results. Since it was for 1848-1864, I believe it would have captured my target family.

For Peter Campbell in county Antrim, there are, fortunately, just three entries and all were in Parish of Shankill, as follows:

(1) Peter Campbell 

landlord: John Connor

house and yard

Parish of Shankill

Smithfield ward

(2) Peter Campbell

landlord: Belfast Gaslight Co

house and small yard

Parish of Shankill

Cromac ward

(3) Peter Campbell

landlord: Robert henderson

house

Parish of Shankill

St Ann’s ward

 If that is the case, then have I identified my target parish? I wonder what should be the next proper step to take... is it to post a message to Shankill? I would hope perhaps for marriage record in the same parish between Peter Campbell and Rosanna Donahue. Perhaps there would be baptism records for the daughters named in the original message: Maria (1857) and Elizabeth (1863). The family lore is that they had another sister but I have no record of her name. Would baptism records include both father's and mother's name? That would be about the only way I can determine a match. This much is encouraging as I doubted I would ever find anything further.Thanks again for assistance,~Betsy

Hi - 

Do you know what religion they were? Most Catholic records are held locally - you can ?browse? an overview of available records for Belfast city here: http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseact…. If you have any difficulty, you could try writing to the parish priest for possible assistance.

Church of Ireland parish registers for the period up to 1870-are public records. Registers are available for about one third of the parishes, however many were destroyed in the Public Records Office in Dublin in 1922. Most are still held by the local clergy, although some are in the National Archives of Ireland and others are in the Representative Church Body Library in Dublin. A list of all surviving registers is available in the National Archives. http://ireland.anglican.org/about/42 and http://www.nationalarchives.ie/.  The Anglican Record Project is has created an index to their records: http://ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/AngRecord/bunclodyunionindex.pdf

Presbyterian registers are held in three main locations: in local custody, in the Public Records of Northern Ireland (PRONI) http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/family_history.htm and at the Presbyterian Historical Society http://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com in Belfast. PRONI has microfilm copies of almost all registers in Northern Ireland and also lists of records held by the Presbyterian Historical Society. For the rest of Ireland, almost all records are in local custody. It can difficult to locate these as many congregations in the South have moved, amalgamated, or simply disappeared over the last sixty years.

Baptism records do - sometimes- include the names of both parents and sponsers - 

For further assistance you may consider contacting the Ulster Historical Foundation - http://antrim.rootsireland.ie/ - a fee may apply.

All the best.

Genealogy support

FOLLOW UP to initial post

I purchased the rootsireland.ie baptism record for Maria Campbell

mother Rose Ann Donaghy

father Peter Campbell

baptised 15 Jan 1854 St Patrick’s Belfast Co Antrim Roman Catholic Rev Conway

sponsors: Mary Donaghy & James Emett McNamee** [have image of transcribed record]

Then I looked for other children of this couple and found a sister (family lore says there were 3 girls)

Margaret A b: 1851 [likely the 3rd/elder sister]

baptised by Rev McKenna at St Patrick’s Co Antrim 25 Aug 1851 

sponsors: Bernard McNamee & Catherine McNamee [same surnames as Maria’s sponsors]

There was nothing for my gr-gr-grandmother Elizabeth Mary Campbell b: 1863

There was nothing for the marriage of their parents but MAYBE church marriage Rose Ann Donaghy & Campbell m: 1838 Co. Antrim but seems too early/old but bride’s name matches, even though the corresponding Campbell is Patrick (could be a bad transcription?)

I am working the Griffith's Valuation and Belfast directories for years when the girls were born there. Best match seems to be:

Peter Campbell

landlord: Belfast Gaslight Co

house and small yard

Parish of Shankill

Cromac ward

Belfast Directory pg 211 Peter Campbell, labourer 16 Irvine Terrace, same street as Samuel Campbell labourer [1 mile from St Patrick’s where girls baptised] [** Irvine Terrace see Ormeau Road, pg 211 house no. 32 Samuel Campbell, labourer and no. 16 Peter Campbell, labourer in Gasfield houses owned by Belfast Gas Company’s Works which matches Griffith’s note above

Questions: I really want to find parents names for Peter Campbell and Rose Ann Donaghy - would it be on a marriage or other parish record? 

I suspect Peter Campbell died before Rose, Elizabeth, Maria emigrated in 1875-77 but I can't find a death record for him. 

NEXT STEP??

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseact…

Clipped from link above// Belfast city: St. Patrick's Births: 

Apr 5 1798 - Oct 20 1811
Jan 23 1814 - Aug 18 1841
Aug 18 1841 - July 15 1853
July 14 1853 - July 17 1867

Aug 10 1875 - June 7 1880

marriages:

Apr 19 1798 - June 18 1812
Jan 29 1814 - Aug 17 1841
Aug 17 1841 - July 28 1853
July 25 1853 - July 2 1867

NLI reference Pos. 5470, 5471

Is it appropriate to request a look up in this material using this link to request form?

http://www.nli.ie/en/ask-a-librarian-query-form.aspx

A few comments:

Griffiths only has part of Belfast listed (mostly Shankill parish). Also, Griffiths records only show heads of household. So, wives and children, people staying as guests, employees etc aren?t listed at all. Be aware that it?s not a comprehensive guide to every resident of Belfast at that time.

Would the marriage certificate show the parents names? Almost certainly not, RC records for that time tended just to have the couples names and their 2 witnesses. However tradition was to marry in the bride?s church so, if you found the marriage, you could search back and look for her baptism in that church, which could give you her parents names. That strategy is fairly reliable in rural areas but in Belfast where the population was fluid, and many people had moved there from, rural areas in recent years, it?s less certain.

Should you contact the NLI link for help? I am not sure whether they will look records up for you. Normally a personal visit is required to access them. (Or pay a researcher to do that for you). However you should e-mail them to find out. A duplicate set of most of those RC parish records is held in PRONI in Belfast. Again a personal visit is required to access them in most circumstances, but you might find the location more convenient. PRONI will do a simple look up for you, eg a given event on a known date and place, but they won?t do trawling searches. They charge around ?15 per 15 minutes research. (Check with them for precise details). In my experience, most professional researchers charge less than that.

Elwyn

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll keep trying to find a marriage record, and cross my fingers that it is the bride's home church with her baptism record.

It seems to help to have their childrens' sponsors' names. I will try to trace them for possible connections too.

This is my maternal line treetop and I have been stumped on this puzzle but I'm not giving up yet. Would love to pursue a search in person one day.

I found a baptism record on RootsIreland for Elizabeth Campbell, a common name, but with close parents' names and a date close to the birth year if she had been a little older than she claimed to be: 21 Feb 1857 St Patrick's, Belfast, father: Patrick (not Peter) Campbell and mother: Rose Anne Donohy. There also is a marriage record for the same named parents, Patrick & Rose Ann, at the same St Patrick's in Belfast dated 20 May 1838. 

Are these names too common to trust what I have found? The spelling of Donaghy varies but is phonetically a match for two daughters' death records, but they show Peter, not Patrick Campbell was their father. The informants for their death records might have made a mistake, or he had two given names. But since I have not seen the original register, how do I know the transcription is accurate?

How could I confirm their relationship? Are probated wills common and detailed circa 1875 Belfast? Would one for the father list the wife and children? 

I keep hoping to make the right connections somehow.

Thanks for any suggestions.

The names Peter and Patrick are often interchangeable (like Henry & Harry.  So Peter could be Patrick or vice versa. If you want to search for wills, then for Northern Ireland the abstracts, and some of the actual wills, are on-line on this link (a lot of pre 1900 wills were destroyed in the 1922 fire, though the abstracts survived):

http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars.htm

Not every will required probate. If all the assets were movable property, then you didn't need probate. The executors just gave the beneficiaries whatever the will specified. (That's still the law today). PRONI only have probated wills and administration estates (ie where the person was intestate). A will would normally name a wife if alive, since she would need to be provided for. But if she had predeceased she would not normally be mentioned. There was no obligation to list all your children, just the ones you were leaving something to. However the estate summary that forms part of the probate file, normally lists how many children were still alive at the date of death.

Since your last post, the RC records have been put on-line free. So you can view the originals that way. St Patrick’s on this link:

http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0428

Back to update my search results. I used the link you offered to see the register images which was helpful because I wanted to see if Patrick or Peter were somehow mistranscribed. See attached to offer an opinion. It seems to be a version of Pat'r or Pet'r but illegible to me.

Also, here is a piece of information I did not have until recently. My great grandmother said her mother's parents were Peter Campbell and Rosana Donohue. She thought the Campbells came to Northern Ireland from Scotland. And they were protestants, perhaps Presbyterians.

Obviously Campbell is a very common Scottish name. Twice on a U.S. census, the daughters of Peter Campbell indicated their father was born in Scotland, the other times born in Ireland. Not a reliable piece of information.

The daughters of Peter & Rosana Campbell were all Catholic and baptized at St Patricks in Belfast and worshipped at Catholic churches in the U.S. and were buried in Catholic cemeteries. Thus the daughters were Catholic, perhaps because their mother Rosana was as well. I wonder what were the requirements for a church wedding? Did Peter have to be baptized before marriage or before his daughters' baptisms? I checked the registers for the months leading up to their marriage thinking he might be listed as an adult baptism but did not find a match.

A final theory I have to account for the early marriage of 1838 and the extended time between births of his daughters (possibly Alice 1 Apr 1849 previously unknown), Margaret 1851, Maria 1854, and Lizzie 1863 is that he might have been a sailor and in that case it will be quite unlikely I can find more about him.

Thanks for your encouragement thus far,

~Betsy (named, in turn, for the Elizabeth at the top of my maternal line)

To me, the name on the marriage entry looks to be an abbreviated Patrick. But since Patrick and Peter are largely interchangeable it wouldn’t really matter which. I’d say there’s a reasonable chance that it's your couple. Your problem then is finding out anything more about them. There’s no address, occupation or parents names.  You have no easy way of finding out whether they were born in Belfast or had recently arrived there from the country (as so many people did at that time). In 1780 the population of Belfast was 13,000 (with just 300 Roman Catholics) and by 1900 it was 349,000. That gives you an idea of the flow of people from the countryside to the city during the 1800s.

You could have a look for Campbell deaths from 1864 onwards, in Belfast. I can see 12 Peters and 43 Patricks.  There’s about 28 Rose, Rose Ann & Rosanna. When you strip away the ones who were too young or too old to be your couple, there’s probably about 10 worth looking at.  Those from 1891 onwards are on-line free on the irishgenealogy site:

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

But for those prior to 1891 you will need to pay GRONI to see them. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

Irish death certificates don’t contain that much information so it might be difficult to tell whether you have the right death, unless the spouse happens to be the informant. One positive thing is that if they had a child Elizabeth in 1863 then both Peter and Rosana seem likely to have been alive when death registration started on 1.1.1864. So as long as they died in Belfast, two of those certificates should be for them.

I’d say that getting back another generation prior to Peter and Rose Ann will be very difficult, if not impossible.

You mention that Campbell is a common Scottish name and that your ancestors might have been Presbyterian (at one time). Campbell is a common Scottish name. It’s also pretty common in Ireland. Looking at the 1901 Irish census there were 14,143 Campbells in Ireland of which roughly 7000 were RC. The remainder were Protestant, the majority Presbyterian (so pretty definitely of Scottish origin).

According to this site: https://www.johngrenham.com/surnames/ the name Campbell was:

Very numerous: Ulster in particular. This relates not only to the great Scottish clan, Scots Gael: Cam-béal (crooked mouth), but also the Ir. Mac Cathmhaoil (battle chief). These were a sept of Cineál Eoghain in Tyrone. In Donegal there was a Scots galloglass family called in Ir. Mac Ailín, who were also Campbells. MIF.

Large numbers of Campbells were invited from Scotland to Ireland in the period 1200 – 1400 as mercenaries (known here as galloglass) to fight for various Irish chiefs who were always squabbling over land etc.. They would have been RC since it was pre-Reformation, and many settled around Donegal & Tyrone. They were granted the land in return for their fighting skills.

Then in Plantation times (1600s) other Scots arrived, the majority of whom were lowland and Presbyterian. Belfast was largely built by lowland Scots settlers which is why there were so few Catholics in the city in the late 1700s.

So your Campbells could be native Irish (the battle chief clan), or of very old Scottish origins (galloglass). They’d all likely be RC. Or they could be of Presbyterian origins arriving in the 1600s but they would have had to switch to RC at some stage.

In the 1830s both parties to an RC marriage would have had to be RC. As you say when one converts there’s usually an adult baptism about a month before the marriage. Tradition being to marry in the bride’s church, if the groom came from a different parish or even a different church within the same parish his baptism might be there rather than in the bride’s church.

Dear Elwyn,

Thanks so much for the fast reply. I think I have a match already. I purchased the one record I had already believed to be the closest possibility (not sure why I hesitated).

7th October 1868 11 Clarks Lane

Peter Campbell, male, widower, 50 years, labour, bronchitis, 2 weeks hospital, 

Marg’t (X her mark) Campbell, present at death 

22nd October 1868 Thomas Wilson deputy registrar

If the age is close to correct, he would have been born 1818, and thus 20 years old for the marriage in 1838. This could very well be a match, as Lizzie’s older sister was called Margaret, the one present at death, who could not have been his wife because this Peter Campbell was widowed. My Lizzie would have been a little girl with two older sisters. The eldest Margaret about 17. 

If a match, then the mother would have already died sometime after Lizzie's birth (1857 or 1863 depending on source). But her forename is spelled so many ways I haven't located any record of death yet. Also, she might have died before 1864. Finding a record with informant Peter Campbell, her husband, and/or the same address as his would be the match I am seeking.

By the way, the Peter Campbell on 11 Clark's Lane was listed in the Griffith's Valuation:

Peter Campbell

  landlord: Robert Henderson

  house

  Parish of Shankill

  St Ann’s ward

  townland: Townparks 

  11 Clark’s Lane [not found on map]

By assembling all sorts of disparate facts, I am making slow progress on my family puzzle. I have felt this is not impossible just painstaking. Couldn't have gotten this far without assistance for which I am grateful.

Clarke’s Lane was off Curtis St. According to the 1868 street directory it consisted of 28 “small houses” but the occupants names weren’t listed.

Occupants were listed in 1861:

http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/ccomplete1861.htm

Not sure where Peter would have been buried. The main cemetery favoured by RC families is Milltown but it opened in 1869. Not sure where RC were buried before that. You could try Belfast City council and ask them. See contact details on this link:

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/community/burialrecords/burialrecords.aspx

Do you know if GRO Oxford House has a way to request death records pre-1864? Their is an e-mail address for them listed on their webpage but no discussion of my type of request. I hope one has options other than visiting their public research room. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/contacts/contacts-az/general-register-offic…;

I would like a search for Rosana Campbell's death from 1857 to 1863. If such a record exists, would it show informant's name such as her husband Peter?

Sincere thanks,

~Betsy

Do you know if GRO Oxford House has a way to request death records pre-1864? An e-mail address is listed on their webpage but no discussion of my type of request. I hope one has options other than visiting their public research room. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/contacts/contacts-az/general-register-offic…;

I would like a search for Rosana Campbell's death from 1857 to 1863. If such a record exists, would it show informant's name such as her husband Peter?

Sincere thanks,

~Betsy

Betsy,

Death registration only started on 1.1.1864. There are no statutory death records before that. The Church of Ireland keeps burial records but no other denomination routinely does. So if you were RC and died 1857 to 1863 there will be no official record of the death in either the GRO or church records.

You might find a mention of the burial in the local papers though not every family did that. And you might find a burial record in the city council graveyard records.  Very few churches in Belfast have a graveyard and so most people were/are buried in public burial grounds, most of which belong to Belfast City Council.  Without a date of death you may struggle to find a mention in the newspapers (and there may not have been one anyway). That’s why I suggested Belfast City Council. That’s probably your best bet.

Oh, I see what you mean. I just sent an e-mail to the cemetery staff and requested burial records for both Peter and Rosana. Since they were residents of Shankill, I started by asking for a search at Shankill Graveyard. Hopefully they will find something there or elsewhere nearby. If they were interred together, that's proof of the theory.

I doubt their family could have afforded markers, and perhaps not even the burial costs. As the parents left three minor daughters, I also wonder if their sponsors would have cared for them until they married or emigrated. It's even possible that Rosana died shortly after Lizzie's birth. (Sponsor names: Bernard & Catherine McNamee, James Emmett McNamee & Mary Donaghy - all listed on Griffith's in Shankill)

Next, I started looking for marriage records for the eldest daughter Margaret. A few seemed promising but did not pan out. Since I don't know if she emigrated, I started with the GRONI records search and found many candidates. Another part of genealogy that I enjoy is meeting and corresponding with distant cousins.

Thanks again, Elwyn, for your assistance and encouragement. I am also working a line in County Kilkenny and so pleased to be making progress with irelandxo's help.

~Betsy

More about this Campbell family, and maybe the answers.

There was a baby Peter Campbell who died at 10 months 30 May 1868 a son of a laborer being cared for by Bridget Knox of 6 Miller's Ct.

There is a birth record for a Peter Campbell born 12 Jul 1867 in Omagh (is that too far away from Belfast?), mother's maiden name Donaghey. His baptism would have been just after the end of the register available on-line so I cannot see his parent's names listed there or anywhere else.

There is a death record for a Rose Campbell who died at 60 years in Belfast 27 May 1868, wife of a porter, 25 Russell St, Thomas Campbell in attendance during last illness. I don't really think this is the mother of the baby, but possible biologically especially if the age at death is off by a few years. It also is not clear who Thomas is and not noted as spouse in any case.

The Peter Campbell age 60 widower (a laborer) I found earlier died after both the baby and Rose on 7 Oct 1868.

See the attachments to ponder this with me. Does it show that Rose (Donahgy) Campbell had a son in 1867, became sick with bronchitis and died 27 May. Her infant son died 3 days later under the care of another woman. Then Rose's husband Peter died in October and their daughter Margaret attended his death.

Am I forcing too much to fit my puzzle with missing pieces? 

You can view the 1867 Omagh Peter Campbell birth free on this site:

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

Father was Philip Campbell of Aghafad, a farmer and the mother Mary Donaghy. I don’t think it’s your family. Omagh is 60 miles from Belfast and farmers didn’t move around much.

The Peter Campbell who died 13.5.1868 was the son of a labourer. However Rose Campbell who died at 25 Russel St was the wife of a porter. So different I think. I also think 60 is far too old to have had a child, even allowing a bit of give and take on her age. Most women stopped having children around 50 then. I looked at the 1868 street directory and 25 Russel Court was occupied by Joseph Campbell, a bottler. So I would say her husband was named Joseph. I looked to see who was in Millers Court but unfortunately the occupants aren’t listed. Just some “small houses.”

I searched for a male Campbell birth in 1867 in Belfast (ideally born around July/August) for someone in Miller Court, but could not trace any birth that might fit. 

I am making so many beginner's mistakes. Hopefully it helps others to see how important it is to disprove a theory, perhaps more important than proving a theory. Sketchy records lead to poor conclusions.

Until I hear something about burial records for the Peter Campbell who died in 1868, it's best for me to give it a rest. After browsing through baptism registries, I see that "Margaret" is perhaps the most common name given to "Campbell" girls in the time frame I was looking. So my enthusiasm for the informant on that death record is unwarranted.

The only additional child I found for this couple while browsing registries could be: Alice Campbell bap: 1 Apr 1849 St Patricks, of Peter & Rose A Donaghy, sponsors: Js. Donaghy & Eliza Donaghy.

It seemed like I should be able to find out something more about my tree top couple. Afterall, their names were given in family lore, and listed on marriage and death records in the US. Alas, I might just accept the brick wall that it is. At least I know the origins of my 3x great grandmother was Belfast where she was born.

Thanks again for your patient assistance,

~Betsy

I finally discovered the third sister Margaret. Her details and a photo are posted on a memorial here:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/210599712/margaret-ann-hughes

Hopefully I will eventually narrow down records about their parents and other family from Belfast records. I will be back to update this thread then.