Turk/Turrentine/Torrentine

Joyce,

Researching ancestors who left Ireland in the 1700s is notoriously challenging (as you have obviously discovered) because the records you need mostly no longer exist.

Drummaul is the parish that encompasses the modern town of Randalstown, and happens to be where I live. Re records for Drummaul, though there are 4 Presbyterian churches in the area, at least one of which was established in the 1600s, none has any baptism or marriage records earlier than 1845. (Earlier records, if they were kept, have all been lost). So there are none to search for your Turks.

The surname Torrentine/Turrentine is completely unknown in Ireland (or in Scotland where the family would have originated if they were Presbyterian) and clearly wasn?t what they were known by when they lived here. A similar surname that is quite common amongst Presbyterians in Co Antrim is Torrens. There were at least 100 of them in the county in the 1901 census. You might want to try and check a few of them for DNA. (Torrens is found in Scotland but the local alternative Torrance is much more common there, so you could take a leap of faith and try DNA testing with them too).

I searched for Turk in Drummaul in Griffiths Valuation (1862). None were listed.

The name Turk is not common in Co Antrim. There were only 25 in the 1901 census (none in Drummaul/Randalstown). There were a few in Belfast. The rest were in the Glens of Antrim, ie in the north east corner of the county. Most were Presbyterian or variants of that denomination. See:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

If you go to the current phone book, there are just 4 Turks listed in Northern Ireland. 2 in Larne and in 2 Belfast. Of course a huge percentage of the population are ex-directory nowadays so there will be others not listed. But you might want to contact the 4 that are.

http://www.ukphonebook.com

Elwyn

Thanks, as I suspected no records back that far, but sometimes locals know of records hidden away.

"It has been speculated that Turrentine is a corruption of Turkington (silent K and silent G).  There was in 1911 a Presbyterian minister in Antrim by the name of James Alexander Turkington.  In the old tithe allotment books from the early 1800’s the name Turrentine appears once in Dublin. Rev. James Turretin in Armagh, and at Markethill and Mullaghbracck. Joseph Turrington and George Turkonton also written as Turkintinten at Lurgan (Shankill) in 1713 and Torkinton in 1804.  Armagh is to the southwest of Antrim.  The closest Y-DNA match is with the surname Turk from Antrim, Ireland.  Genetic distance of 5 to William Turk born about 1765 in Antrim, immigrated to America prior to 1799." (Excerpt from Turrentine Newsletter)   I am very interested in the finding the person(s) to be the genetic test for this parish and willing to contribute to the cost if a donor can be found.  With modern movement I understand it can be difficult to find someone with all ancestors going back 4 generations to the same parish.  We are so far removed from Ireland, there is not a high probability that we would match an significant strand from that person, but it still is an interesting concept and idea.

Joyce

Joyce/jehodges,

Today I found your searches from 2013. Have you made any progess with the Turks of Antrim? I am a direct desendent of William Turk born 1765. His son was Ephraim H. Turk 1791
His son was James Turk 1822
His son was James Marion Turk 1853
His son was Russell Leroy Turk 1881
His son was Harold Leroy Turk 1906
His son was Arnold Delos Turk 1928
His son was Larry Dean Turk 1951
That is me.
I am looking for more info on William's marriage date to Sarah Morse, born 1769, also who Williams father was. We have unconfirmed info that his father or grand father came from Brig o'Turk, Trossacks, Scotland, but no dates. They were originally named MacGregor and were forced by the British to abandon their clan name, so they adopted the Turk name from their location at the time and moved to Antrim N. Ireland. But, I'm looking for someone who can substantiate that info. Please let me know if you receive this reply, even if you have no updated info.

Thank you,

Larry Turk

Larry,  I only have arrival records for 2 brothers Samuel and Alexander Torrentine in 1745. 

We did Y-DNA testing on 2 Turrentine males who do not match each other exactly, there being a difference of 3.

Amoung their matches are a couple  of people with the surname Turk.  They list their ancestor as William Turk born about 1753, Antrim, in what is now North Ireland. 

Another match is McMath, born about 1730, no location given.  There is a match from Scoland, John Stewart, born about 1790 in Pershire. 

Sorry I can't provide any more clues.  The testing we did was at FTDNA. 

Joyce (Moore) Hodges

Regarding the prohibition on the use of the name MacGregor, this was an order from the Scottish King, later reinforced in 1617 by the Scottish Parliament who passed an Act confirming the ban. The background was that in 1604, the MacGregors slaughtered a group of Colqhuouns who had been detained following a land dispute. They had surrendered and the prisoners included many women and children. King James VI of Scotland was so appalled by this act of savagery that he ordered that their name be “altogether abolished.” They were later allowed to use it for a while. It was then abolished again before being reinstated in the late 1700s.

I don’t see any Turks listed in the Muster Rolls for 1630, so that suggests that, assuming they were using the name Turk then, they arrived in Ireland after 1630. 

Hi Joyce, I have some info that might be usful to you, I am a member of Ancestry, my sister is married to a Turkington, their son Jeremy joined ancestry and took a DNA test,  last week his DNA results came through, I have been managing his Ancestry account.

At least 6 of his DNA matches in the USA descend from the Alexander and Samuel you mentioned, there would probably be far more if I searched the names that descended from the Turrentine/Turkingtons. All his DNA matches are a low cM, as would be expected for that far out a connection. Here in Northern Ireland the 2 main areas that have Turkingtons, would be Sandholes (near Cookstown) and Portadown area.

We actually have 2 Turkington marriages in our family, firstly my sister to one of the Sandholes Turkingtons, and secondly my Aunt married one of the Derryadd (Portadown area) Turkingtons, on very old records there were a lot of Turkingtons in Derryadd, and my Turkington cousins think that Derryadd was where the Turkingtons originated from. My brother in laws family in the Sandholes have always believed that the original Turkingtons came here with King William as Footmen when he came to fight the Battle of the Boyne, proving this might be a bit of a tall order. I am not 100% sure, but I think they believed 2 brothers Turkington came with King William.

My nephew is also DNA matched to Lurgan and Portadown Turkingtons, I am sure they are all related as it is a very unusual name here, and Turk most likely evolved from Turkington.

My nephews line goes back to James Turkington, born in 1853, died 25 Dec 1915, he manufactured clay pipes for tobacco, he lived at Lisnanane, Sandholes, and different branches of that Turkington family own near all the land round that area.

Hope this information has been helpful to you.

Sandra B

There are over 350 descendants of Samuel and Alexander Turrentine/Torrentine who arrived in America in 1749 who  have tested at Ancestry.com.  They have a few matches to descendants of Tabitha Turrentine who married Thomas Goolsby in 1707 in Virginia. The biggest problem using atDNA to confirm relationships is that so many of the families who lived in a single county that early in America intermarried mulitple times over multiple generations.  Therefore, we are seldom sure which line the shared atDNA is coiming from.

We also have a Y-DNA study at FTDNA.  (There are some adtDNA (Family FInder) samples there as well. ) We have now upgraded the Y-DNA testing to Y-700 for two descendants out of the 7 known Turrentine direct line males.  (One line had an adoption several generations back,  and the Y and atDNA confirm the birth father was a Turrentine.)  The terminal SNP value is M-269 for the testors at 67 markers, and for the Y-700 it is R-BY170573. 

There is also a Jeffery Alan McMath, descendant of Donals McMath born about 1730 who has difference of 9 of 553.  His terminal SNP is Y17787.

The Turk terminal SNPs are R-P25 and R-FGC11397, depending upon the level tested.

Would he be willing to do the Y-DNA test at FTDNA?  I would be willing to pay for the test.  If you want me to look at his matches at Ancestry and identify the other Turrentine matchs, you can invite me my member name is jehodges2.

Joyce (Moore) Hodges

Hi Joyce, there are a load of direct line male Turkingtons in the Sandholes! I am sure any of them would take the test, I'm afraid I do not understand much of that technical data. I have sent you an invite to view Jeremy's tree, he can be easily found on Ancestry as he is the only Jeremy Turkington, you could alway connect to him on Facebook as well, as through him you will be able to connect to the other Sandholes Turkingtons. I am on Facebook as Sandra Barr. I will show this thread to my sister, and she can show it to her husband (Jeremys Dad).

Did those Y DNA tests show where in the world they originated from?

Sandra

Actually it would be better to test the father, one generation closer.

The Y-DNA is in the general group R-M269, with terminal SNP of BY170573.  Here is link to the wiki on that group.

Haplogroup R-M269 - Wikipedia

Later on it is part of DF27

Here is that information:

Haplogroup R-DF27 - Wikipedia

on that page, the Turrentines are the subgroup ZZ12_1

The line goes on to Z34609, Z34609, Z2571, FGC11380, FGC113978, BY16396, BY170573

Here is a proposed tree in visual format:

R _R1b ALL Subclades - Results | FamilyTreeDNA

find DF27, ZZ12, then down at the bottom ZZ19

They are speculating that it came through Switzerland, into Germany, this picture changes periodically as more men test. 

There is an oral history that the Turrittini family had a member who was a priest who went to Germany about the time of the reformation and disappeared.  When we did Y-DNA testing with a Turrintini it was years ago when they did 8 markers,which indicated a no match, too many differences.  That sample now matches 7 of 8 with another Turrentine branch, but now at least 37-111 markers are considered adequate and we have no contact with that family.  There are several variations of the surname in Ireland from Turrettini to Turkington who were ministers in Northern Ireland.  We have just been looking for men to test to see if they are in the same line.

Joyce

Hi Joyce, I have spoken with Jeremy and he would be happy to take the test, and I think his Dad would also take it if you would prefer a generation back. Further to what Elwyn was saying about the McGregor's/MacGregor's, I have searched Jeremys DNA matches, and he literally has hundreds that have McGregors in their tree! I never seen anything like it on Ancestry, they just kept coming, far too many to count, has your group considered testing McGregors? He also has about 12 matches that have Turrentine's, mostly from Tabitha Turrentine.

It really makes sense to me that they were McGregors, another name that the McGregors took when they could not use their own was Greer, and if you go to Desertcreat Church (beside the Sandholes), the graveyard is literally full of McGregors, Greers and Turkingtons, and Turkingtons now own an Estate in the Sandholes (Tullylagan Manor) ,that belonged to McGregor/Greers.

Another name that the McGregor's took when they could not use their own name was Grant, and by the craziest of coincidences one of Jeremy's friends is a Grant, and another is a McGregor.

Also, you should read the "Declaration of Arbroath", I researched it a few years ago, and published a blog on my research, the first paragraph of the declaration details where the Scottish Clans were before they came to Scotland, "They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous."

Pockets along the route outlined, to this day have high levels of rh negative blood, which is common in Scotland and Ireland, the Brasques are just one of the peoples along that route who still have a high percentage of rh Negative blood. When I mapped their journey, and seen that it correlated with the path of rh negative people, I figured that the journey outlined could well be how they came to be in Scotland.

This link is my blog on the Declaration of Arbroath and rh negative blood. http://truthseeker444.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-declaration-of-arbroath-…

Sandra

Sandra,

If I have an address, the atDNA test is on sale right now.  We can submit a sample under that test and then later add additional tests without an additional sample.  Because the Y-DNA test is more expensive than the atDNA test, I usually wait for a sale to purchase those. I had hoped that Valentine's day they would have a sale, but they only did the atDNA (Family Finder) test, not the Y.  However, we can get your brother-in-law  set up for an account, then order the Y-DNA test as soon as they announce a sale.

Thank you for you help.

Also, your pages are very interesting!  I read through quickly.  When I finish the update to the Turrentine Family book I will go back and actually study the information.

Joyce

ops, you can  send the mailing address via email to jehodges@email.com, as you probably do not want to post it here.  I will aslo need a first name for your brother-in-law when I order the test kit.

Hello there, I came across your messages as belong to Ireland XO for some time.

Very interested in your relationships here, especially the Turkington side from Ireland.

I have been researching my Grandmother's Turkington family for awhile now and it's been very slow progress I might say! 

However it seems our Turkington family had a very strong connection to the Shankill, Lurgan, 

Armagh area and had lived there over generations.

My Grandmother was born Frances May Turkington in 1911, now deceased in 1990 Newzealand 

Her father was Samuel James Turkington born 1882-1918, died WW1 confirmed

His father was James Turkington born about 1859-1928 confirmed death

His father Samuel Turkington born about 1835-1889 confirmed death

All born Shankill Lurgan. My grandmother left as a 10yr old child with her widowed mother and brother William James Turkington and came to Newzealand. 

Would love to be able to go back even further and have done my DNA and uploaded to Gedmatch as well. 

Have not found many connections that I see connects with my family to date. One possible one but still cant find our connection so may still be too far back to connect just yet.

I will also confess to not really knowing alot about the DNA side of things but thought would just pop in on here with my links in case it resonates with anyone here as Portadown I see is not far from Shankill area and is less than a 2hr trip so I'm sure my family have many other connections outside of it.

Anyway hopefully some good has come out of all the testing! 

Please message if anyone feels they might have a connection, many thanks Kelly

Kelly,

Couldn't figure out how to message you directly.  My direct email is jehodges@email.com, Gedmatch number is T449786.  I saw a couple email addresses that were from New Zealand amongst my matches, but none for a Kelly.

Joyce

Kelly,

Portadown and Shankill, Lurgan are a lot closer than a 2 hour trip. More like 10 minutes.