Erwin/Irwin

There’s a record of an Arthur Irwin farming in Dunturky townland near Ballynure in the tithe applotment records for 1834. This might be your ancestor is he was a farmer or had land:

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/ballynure-parish.php

No Irwin farm there by the time of Griffiths Valuation in 1861 which fits if he had emigrated in 1847. Dunturky is just on the outskirts of Ballynure. There’s a by-pass round the town which runs through the middle of it.

If Arthur was born in the Crumlin area (parish of Camlin) or Ballynure then the bad news is that none of the churches in these 2 areas have any records for the 1700s. So you probably won’t find a record of his birth.

Thank you for your help! It's all very interesting...

I wonder if he was a miller? Only bc I think I saw a random Irwin person when I was researching the other day, and his job was a miller. And when Arthur came to the US, he and his sons had a big mill company.  It's now refurbished condos, Lol. Any way, just a thought I can't probably nail down.

Arthur and his wife, Jennie Hutchinson, had 9 kids; Mary, one of their youngest, died as a child.

That's so neat to hear more about Dunturky/Ballynure location.  But Lol the bypass. Time marches on.

thank you again for all your effort and information :)

To be listed in the tithes you had to have land. (The tithes were in effect a tax on land, so that’s why they were compiled). He may have been a miller as well as a farmer (you do see that in some of the land records) but if it’s the correct Arthur, then he definitely had some land.

PRONI the public record office in Belfast has a lease which mentions a small farm and corn mill in Dunturky, so there was certainly a mill there:

D162/110/21A  Draft lease for 61 years from 1 Nov. 1873. Yearly rent £95 Os.Od. Conway Richard Dobbs, Castle Dobbs and Montague William Edward Dobbs, his son to Thomas McKerrell, agricultural implement manufacturer, Mallusk, Co. Antrim. 14 acres, 27 perches, Statute measure, the Church Yard farm with the cotton mill, etc Toberdowney, Co Antrim also 5 acres, 1 rood, 38 perches, statute measure with the corn mill and kiln, Dunturky, and 27 acres, 2 perches, statute measure, Bryantang, Co. Antrim.

Another document, dated 25th Oct 1760 contains a list of tenants in Dunturky at that time. It might mention the Irwin family.

D1824/B/1/2/3/2 Counterpart lease for one life or 31 years, David Archbold of Belfast, gent., to John Forsyth of Ballynure, tanner: property in townland of Dunturky; Forsyth to provide grazing for cows of other tenants of Archbold between April and harvest, with list of tenants.

D1824/B/1/2/3/6 is another list of tenants in Dunturky dated c 1750

The above records are not on-line. They are held in PRONI (in paper format) and so a personal visit is required to view them.

From the first listing, are you speaking of the 5 acres listing? Also, since it's a tithe, it's assumed that he owned, not rented?

the other records are fascinating. However, I'm in America with no hopes of travel any time soon, thanks to the virus. So that in person will have to wait ;) but it's amazing that I have a place to start when I do.

Thank you again for all your deep dives :)

-L. Erwin

Hi

I have been following this thread with interest perchance it provided leads to my great great grandmother’s family.  She was Ellen Irvin, born around 1807-8, and initially was believed to have come from the Larne district, possibly Carrickfergus itself, as this may explain why she was married there.  My research eventually located a likely marriage for Ellen Irvin and Daniel McAuley who married on 23 May 1828, at Carrickfergus, Antrim, Ireland. Alternative Parish names are Ballygowan and Larne, and I understand also incorporated Ballyclare.  Carrickfergus Church is understood to be an associated church with the Catholic Church in Larne, hence the later reference to the records belonging to Larne Parish.  I am open to the belief that she came from a nearby townland, hence my particular interest in such places as Ballygowan, Ballyclare, Dunturky, Ballynure, Raloo, etc, mentioned in this thread 

Although the marriage record clearly spells out her first name as Ellen,  other later records state ‘Eleanor’,  so in my searches I formed the initial opinion that it was possible that Ellen Irvin’s name wass incorrect, being possibly Eleanor, Ellen, Ellenor, or even Helen or Helena, and her surname being possible Irvine Irving, or even Irwin or Ervin.  These variables have all been searched, but in reality I  located only one probable candidate.  Significantly subsequent research found a possible twin sister when I considered that if the usual Irish naming  practice also applied, then Ellen’s mother was called Sarah [Jane];   significantly, Ellen’s second daughter was named Sarah Jane.  Daniel and Ellen’s first daughter was named Mary, probably after Daniel’s mother.  My research thus took me to searching all variations of names with Sarah as the mother’s name, and in due course I came across twin girls, Hellen and Anne Irvin, [surprisingly] born in Limerick in 1807, not Antrim, so within the  believed time span, to parents Laurence Irvin and Sarah {nee Mulcahy} Irvin.  I do not know when or why they shifted to Antrim for the two daughters to marry there in 1828.  Also, I have not located a marriage,  or birth record, or death record for either parents.  I continue to search, hence this posting, should any Irvin reader recognise the names Ellen and Anne Irvin, born to a Laurence Irvin and Sarah Mulcahy. Also, Anne Irvin married a William McGroogan in Carrickfergus, Antrim, Ireland.  

Any assistance with these families will be much appreciated from a self-isolationist down under in Cambridge, New Zealand

Regards and thanks

Stephen Schollum

L. Erwin,

The tithe was paid by the person who occupied the land. It might be the owner but often it was a tenant. The bigger landowners were never very willing to sell land in Ireland and so most farms were leased.  The inability to acquire outright ownership of land was a long running sore for farmers. If they leased land and improved it (as most would naturally do) when the lease came up for renewal, the landlord could increase the rent because the farm was now worth more.  Caused much ill feeling as you might imagine.

You can’t tell from the tithes whether the occupant was also the owner. Arthur may have owned his farm outright but statistically speaking, he probably didn’t.  But he could sell the unexpired portion of any lease as well as all the cattle, seed and equipment on the farm which he would own outright.  So it was still worth something.

The tithes for Dunturky are on-line on the PRONI site.  It takes a long time to download them and so I haven’t checked the size of Arthur’s holding. Presumably you have and found it to be 5 acres.  The measurements in the tithes for Ulster were usually in Cunningham acres (a measurement used in Ulster, Scotland and the north of England). Converting that to statute acres (multiply by 1.3) means the farm was 6.5 acres.

If Arthur had a mill, then there were 2 in the townland according to Griffiths. One was on plot 6 and the miller in 1861  was Thomas McKinstry, the other was next door on plot 7 and the tenant was Robert Majury. The mills would be water powered. Both were on what today is Church Rd, Ballynure. (That ties in with the lease in PRONI which mentions “the Church Yard farm”).

Stephen,

Ellen, Helen & Eleanor are all versions of the same name. I have a friend here in Ireland who is known as Helen but it’s Ellen on her birth certificate. So the variations you have found are all quite normal.

Roman Catholic parishes tended to be bigger than civil parishes and often encompassed several. To make it even easier they often had different names too. This link takes you to a site which has maps of the RC parishes and also details of what records they hold:

https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/counties/rcmaps/antrimrc.php#maps/

There are 3 RC parishes there now: Ballyclare (which includes the town of Ballynure), Larne & Carrickfergus. Larne & Carrickfergus used to be the one parish but were split into 2 around 1852 due, presumably, to population growth.

Irwin (and it’s many variants) is a very common name in Co. Antrim. There’s about 2000 in the 1901 census of the county A simple test of whether this Ballynure family is the same as yours would be to compare the religious denomination. The family you are looking at were evidently RC.  Georgia24 do you know what denomination Arthur was?

Elwyn
many thanks for your reply and especially for your linkage.  It will be interesting to see if this renewed interest and activity will result in new leads regards  Stephen 

Elwyn-

Thanks again for what you've found.

I'm not sure where the tithe record is on the PRONI site yet, but I'm still looking.

I think you're right about the actual plot, the one with the mills, etc. What a very cool notion to think this is the place!

As for Arthur, I think he was Presbyterian. Mainly bc Arthur and most of his family are buried in a Presbyterian  church cemetary. Also, my 3x great grandma had a Presbyterian psalm book that she passed down (acquired in America though) .

Anyway, thanks again--lots and lots of great information :)))

Georgia24,

To get the tithes, click on the e-catalogue option on the PRONI website. Enter “Dunturky tithe applotment.” That will bring you up 2 sets of records. FIN/5/A/44A & B. (I suspect both are identical).  Click on “view.”  They should then download (slowly).

The tithes are compiled townland by townland. Search through till you find Dunturky. The tithe will show you the precise acreage each person held and there are often comments on the quality of the land  eg 1st quality, 2nd etc.(which was relevant to the value). You can also see who someone’s likely immediate neighbours were which can help locate a property. For example, we know there were 2 mills in Dunturky. We don’t know yet which Arthur held. The tithes may make that clear anyway but if not, look to see if the other mill owner is still there in Griffiths. If he is, then by eliminating that one from the search, you can identify Arthur’s precisely.  The 2 mills were of course beside each other to take advantage of the river, but you might find it interesting to know exactly which was his.

 The tithes are dated c 1820 – c 1840 there because that is the broad band of years that the tithes were compiled over across the country but I know from another site that the particular year the Ballynure parish tithes were compiled was 1834. So we can date them more accurately.

There are also notebooks called “field books” which the Griffiths clerks used when first creating Griffiths Valuation.  It again was compiled for taxation purposes but assessed most property, not just land.  So labourers with only a house are in Griffiths (unless it was of a low value) not just folk with land. They are in the VAL/1 series of records. They are not on-line, so can’t be accessed remotely. So you have to go in person, to see them. (When PRONI is open of course. It’s closed at present). Background here:

https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/valuation-books.html

The field books sometimes mention the property owner, but also provide a more detailed description of the property.

There’s a mill at the Ulster Folk museum at Cultra, outside Belfast. It gives you an idea of what your ancestor’s mill would have looked like:

https://www.nmni.com/our-museums/Ulster-Folk-Museum/Things-to-see/Gorti…

Stephen,

The Dunturky family appear to have been Presbyterian whereas your family were Roman Catholic. That’s not to say there couldn’t have been intermarriage but with it being such a common name in the area, unless you have something specifically linking your family to Ballynure, I’d be cautious about concluding it’s the same family. Carrickfergus is about 8 miles or so from Ballynure and Dunturky.  Not a huge distance but there were many families of that surname in the area.

Hi Elwyn. As always thanks for your very helpful comments. I have no proof regarding living at Ballynure or Dunturky but am really grasping at  straws regarding all nearby town lands in an attempt to locate a likely place. Given that they were married at Carrickfergus, I suspect that they (Daniel and Ellen McAuley) lived there for some time before and after the 1828 marriages. A son George McAuley was born around late 1829 / early 1830, before the family sailed to eastern Canada. I have not been able to locate an emigration vessel, or the ports of departure and arrival; all I know that they settled at Kingston (now Reston) New Brunswick, Canada. Perhaps one day I will get to visit the Antrim town lands and also visit Belfast public records office. Cheers from an isolated Cambridge down under 

Hi Elwyn. As always thanks for your very helpful comments. I have no proof regarding living at Ballynure or Dunturky but am really grasping at  straws regarding all nearby town lands in an attempt to locate a likely place. Given that they were married at Carrickfergus, I suspect that they (Daniel and Ellen McAuley) lived there for some time before and after the 1828 marriages. A son George McAuley was born around late 1829 / early 1830, before the family sailed to eastern Canada. I have not been able to locate an emigration vessel, or the ports of departure and arrival; all I know that they settled at Kingston (now Reston) New Brunswick, Canada. Perhaps one day I will get to visit the Antrim town lands and also visit Belfast public records office. Cheers from an isolated Cambridge down under 

Elwyn-

thank you for the guidance. It helped a lot.

I will tell you that I was reminded that Arthur, the known patriarch, was described in his obit as a stonemason, a builder, and fixer; his sons were miller's. This would jive with what you mentioned in seeing the differences in the tithes vs Griffiths. For example, the tithe has Arthur with a certain amount of land and next door to an Anderson but in Griffiths, the Anderson parcel looks like it swallowed the Arthur property. Also, the Anderson neighbors place in Griffiths, is called Kennedy's rocks (or something) so that could be it.

I will obviously look more into it but I thank you so much for your information and guidance.

Stay safe and be well.

-Georgian24